120 réponses à ce sujet

[TuringPoint]

I agree that it didn't feel like a suicide mission. It was an interesting mission, though, in that people could die off.

[wizardryforever]

I agree that the Suicide Mission is not that simple, there are many places where it isn't too painfully obvious what to do.  In my first playthrough, I assumed that people would die, since everyone in the whole game had been telling me that we would lose people.  As a result, after losing Mordin in the vents (which baffled me at the time), I started picking people I didn't like for tasks, since I thought that it simply caused them to die if you picked them.  For this reason, I picked Thane for the biotic bubble, thinking that he would die at the end (I liked him the least out of the choices given).  So I was quite pissed when the shield failed and Tali was taken by the swarms.  So I was a little surprised to discover that there was a way to keep everyone alive.  It kinda pissed me off, why call it a suicide mission if you can get out unscathed?

But it isn't that hard after you've played through it once, but that could be metagame knowledge.  There's people who had no idea that Thane couldn't be used in the vents, since they think "Thane = vents in his recruitment, why not use him here?"  Thane is a useless character in the Suicide mission if he isn't with you personally.  He can't be used for any specialist (tech, fire leader, or biotic), and his Hold the Line score is mediocre.  Why recruit Thane anyway?  Mordin it more useless, but he at least has a plot purpose.  /rant

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

Surviving the suicide mission didn't seem so easy. Yes, once you knew what you had to do, you could perfectly plan it out, but who among us with no prior knowledge always upgraded their ship, always chose the right specialist (especially with Miranda telling you that anyone would do), knew exactly who to make fire team leader, who to take with them when, and waited until the very end of the game to go on the Derelict Reaper and immediately pursued the Omega-4 Relay?

With no prior knowledge, that seems pretty difficult.

When I first started, I upgraded everything available in terms of ship upgrades because I knew the Normandy would need these upgrades (they also seem to stand out amongst the other upgrades because they don't give you a gameplay boost). I decided to keep recruiting my crew before doing the Delerict Reaper because I expected the Delerict Reaper to risk some of the lives of my crew (I was mistaken) so when I did get the everybody-was-captured scene I had my entire crew and they were all loyal.

Following that, I went to the Suicide Mission and...

They said tech expert, of course I sent Tali.
They said fire team leader, I sent in Garrus because his stories told me he had experience with a squad.
They said biotic, of course I took the best biotic ever (Jack) on the team.
They said an escort for the squad, I sent in Jacob because he was a security guard and wants to protect people.
They said another fire team leader, I once again sent Garrus.

It didn't require much thinking or knowledge. I just had to use common sense on the Suicide Mission. Hell, I was pissed when everybody survived because I expected this to be the toughest mission ever.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[Saibh]

wizardryforever wrote...

I agree that the Suicide Mission is not that simple, there are many places where it isn't too painfully obvious what to do.  In my first playthrough, I assumed that people would die, since everyone in the whole game had been telling me that we would lose people.  As a result, after losing Mordin in the vents (which baffled me at the time), I started picking people I didn't like for tasks, since I thought that it simply caused them to die if you picked them.  For this reason, I picked Thane for the biotic bubble, thinking that he would die at the end (I liked him the least out of the choices given).  So I was quite pissed when the shield failed and Tali was taken by the swarms.  So I was a little surprised to discover that there was a way to keep everyone alive.  It kinda pissed me off, why call it a suicide mission if you can get out unscathed?

But it isn't that hard after you've played through it once, but that could be metagame knowledge.  There's people who had no idea that Thane couldn't be used in the vents, since they think "Thane = vents in his recruitment, why not use him here?"  Thane is a useless character in the Suicide mission if he isn't with you personally.  He can't be used for any specialist (tech, fire leader, or biotic), and his Hold the Line score is mediocre.  Why recruit Thane anyway?  Mordin it more useless, but he at least has a plot purpose.  /rant

A lot of characters are sort of useless. Even characters like Samara or Legion don't have a purpose if Tali and Jack survived. Technically Miranda has no use either. No wait, she's immortal, I forgot. Okay, Jacob doesn't do anything for you. Grunt doesn't actually have a specific job to do. He's good at holding the line, but so is Garrus and Zaeed.

I do see what you mean, though, and I do wish everyone could have a place in the SM. As it is, Shepard is not psychic and wouldn't know who or what would useful there and what wouldn't.

Dave of Canada wrote...

It didn't require much thinking or knowledge. I just had to use common sense on the Suicide Mission. Hell, I was pissed when everybody survived because I expected this to be the toughest mission ever.

>[ Stop proving me wrong, Dave, it's not funny. In retaliation, I'm going to keep not doing what I've already been not doing.

[wizardryforever]

Saibh wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

I agree that the Suicide Mission is not that simple, there are many places where it isn't too painfully obvious what to do.  In my first playthrough, I assumed that people would die, since everyone in the whole game had been telling me that we would lose people.  As a result, after losing Mordin in the vents (which baffled me at the time), I started picking people I didn't like for tasks, since I thought that it simply caused them to die if you picked them.  For this reason, I picked Thane for the biotic bubble, thinking that he would die at the end (I liked him the least out of the choices given).  So I was quite pissed when the shield failed and Tali was taken by the swarms.  So I was a little surprised to discover that there was a way to keep everyone alive.  It kinda pissed me off, why call it a suicide mission if you can get out unscathed?

But it isn't that hard after you've played through it once, but that could be metagame knowledge.  There's people who had no idea that Thane couldn't be used in the vents, since they think "Thane = vents in his recruitment, why not use him here?"  Thane is a useless character in the Suicide mission if he isn't with you personally.  He can't be used for any specialist (tech, fire leader, or biotic), and his Hold the Line score is mediocre.  Why recruit Thane anyway?  Mordin it more useless, but he at least has a plot purpose.  /rant

A lot of characters are sort of useless. Even characters like Samara or Legion don't have a purpose if Tali and Jack survived. Technically Miranda has no use either. No wait, she's immortal, I forgot. Okay, Jacob doesn't do anything for you. Grunt doesn't actually have a specific job to do. He's good at holding the line, but so is Garrus and Zaeed.

Some of the characters are redundant (Legion, Tali and Kasumi or Samara and Jack), but only Mordin and Thane have no use in the suicide mission at all besides kicking ass next to Shepard.  Zaeed has good HTL score, Legion is tech, Samara is biotic, Tali is tech, Mordin is useless, Garrus is fire leader and HTL, Miranda is fire leader, Jacob is fire leader and HTL, Jack is biotic, Thane is useless, Grunt is good HTL, Kasumi is tech.  Did I miss anyone?  Thane's is only glaring because we only recruited him for the suicide mission, and he has no use in it, unless you use him on your squad or send him back with the crew.

Anyway, the suicide mission isn't that difficult, but until you know how it is set up, the choices can be hard.  For instance, not knowing if this will be a Virmire situation in which certain characters must be sacrificed, or if you will meet back up with them anytime in the near future.  Really, the main thing that confused me the first time was not knowing that everyone could be saved, thus, I was expecting deaths, thus, I didn't make the smartest decisions ever.  I picked people that I wouldn't mind dying, not necessarily the best ones for the job.

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

>[ Stop proving me wrong, Dave, it's not funny. In retaliation, I'm going to keep not doing what I've already been not doing.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Wait, you weren't doing it anyway!

*cries*

[Sajuro]

Saibh wrote...

Surviving the suicide mission didn't seem so easy. Yes, once you knew what you had to do, you could perfectly plan it out, but who among us with no prior knowledge always upgraded their ship, always chose the right specialist (especially with Miranda telling you that anyone would do), knew exactly who to make fire team leader, who to take with them when, and waited until the very end of the game to go on the Derelict Reaper and immediately pursued the Omega-4 Relay?

With no prior knowledge, that seems pretty difficult.

Upgraded my ship because everyone in the game tells you how badly you got owned last time and how upgrades could help (even called my friend to see if I was missing any)
Chose Legion as Tech since I knew I needed someone who was good with computers but was afraid it was a oneway trip for the specialist and didn't want to risk my Tali
Chose Garrus as the fire squad leader both times, since he's my bro
Chose Samara as the biotic shield person because it says she is powerful as crap
Went straight through the relay, since the game made it seem urgent
and didn't take Miranda (unloyal) to the boss fight since I was sure she would betray me (even kept the collector base that time so she wouldn't try to stop Shep from blowing it)
That said, I was worried the whole way through. I think they should have put some timer on how long the biotic specialist could hold out on the long walk segment and how long the fire team leaders could hold out.

[brfritos]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It didn't require much thinking or knowledge. I just had to use common sense on the Suicide Mission. Hell, I was pissed when everybody survived because I expected this to be the toughest mission ever.

Funny thing I did exactly the same choices you did regarding the squad choices, only used Legion instead of Tali.

Just using the brain a little make wonders in this life.

[Ieldra]

Saibh wrote...
Surviving the suicide mission didn't seem so easy. Yes, once you knew what you had to do, you could perfectly plan it out, but who among us with no prior knowledge always upgraded their ship, always chose the right specialist (especially with Miranda telling you that anyone would do), knew exactly who to make fire team leader, who to take with them when, and waited until the very end of the game to go on the Derelict Reaper and immediately pursued the Omega-4 Relay?

Delaying the main plot missions until everything else is done is a good old RPG standard, practically the default. Upgrading everything and everyone as early and as far as possible, also default behaviour. If I had to guess, I'd say that an overwhelming majority of the players started the suicide mission with a full complement of loyal team members, maybe excepting one on the losing side of a character conflict, and with all ship upgrades. The only suicide mission slot with a degree of uncertainty was the fire team leader, and if you went with Miranda's suggestion and let her lead all was well. Tali and Legion are such obvious choices, as well as Samara and Jack for the biotic specialist. 

So, losing one to three people on the suicide mission, that could happen, but surviving it is extremely easy. I lost one team member in my first playthrough.

[Onyx Jaguar]

crimzontearz wrote...

Everyone, or almost everyone, begun complaining about how easy it was for everyone to survive the suicide mission and how Bioware took the easy way out/ catered to the imbecils and cretins in our midsts.
Now...what if Bioware is simply helping us? What if they are just allowing us to shape our team for ME3 more easily?

Maybe others have postulated this in the past on the boards but I am hoping it is a sign of the fact that bioware might have the quads to actually tell people "hey,you killed everyone in ME2? Well....deal with much less content in ME3 and a much smaller squad...after all we did give you all the possible aid and user friendliness in ME2 to save anyone you wanted." And thus we will not have to deal with a whole new squad scenario for ME3

Here's to hope....the last goddess.

Considering how ****ing hardcore we are and how I often see someone not as hardcore routinely have squad deaths I would like to completely invalidate your point. 

Besides it was all common sense anyway.  You can't have a more difficult common sense or less difficult, it just is. 

[Mudzr]

True, the majority of new players probably skipped the majority of the loyalty, missions, expecially those with no experience of bioware games, and they probably didn't get all the upgrades either.

I actually think most people didn't get through the mission with no casualties in the first playthrough, I know some did, and that they are very vocal about it, but truthfully I can see a lot of reasons to fail.

Even if you do everything prior to the mission, whilst the leadership and tech thing is guessable I can see some people making mistakes, like choosing Zaeed.

In the next part, Miranda's red herring made quite a few people choose any biotic, myself included. After seeing Garrus die I decided to go back and save him because he is one of my favourite characters, calibrations asside. So I reloaded, does that count? Because I know alot of people would have done the same as me.

Next is even harder because the "hold the line" thing isn't too clear. I took Grunt and Garrus with me because I thought I needed firepower to face the final boss. As a result Mordin died. Now I know alot of people made this mistake, and Mordin/ Tali/ Thane often die at this point. I later did another runthrough with the character to make sure Mordin was ok, but he still died in that first runthrough of the mission.



So I do think the mission is hard, expecially playing for the first time, I would have liked it to be harder sure but I think this would have just added to the frustration. Maybe some choices like save X colony or save X party member would have made the mission a little harder and more interesting but frankly I thought Bioware handled it well, and I also think that very few people made it out with everyone first go, with reloads not being counted.

[crimzontearz]

ok...WTH

why are so many people using the "well I knew someone was going to die like on Virmire" as an excuse for lack of common sense/intelligent choices?



what part of the "you can save everyone" statements from the lead designers PRIOR to the release of the game and the "no one left behind achievement" was so painfully hard to understand that people assumed they would lose team-mates no matter what?



Also the fact you CAN reload and make he "right" choices while still playing coupled with the fact you can surgically strike at the team-mates you want dead is only further proof that Bioware might have wanted us to actually meticulously craft our outcome to suit us in ME3 and not vice versa.



I also do not understand the complaints about the "hold the line" segment



I have never EVER had anyone die at that segment and I once sent grunt back with the crew and took Garrus and Miri with me and STILL no one died (granted I had upgraded everything possible and everyone was loyal). And I did that just to mix things up I usually leave all the heavy hitters holding the line and send Tali back with the crew.

[Yxiomel]

I think the only "tricky" part was the "Hold The Line" section; in particular the fact that having a bigger team doesn't equate to having a better Hold the Line score (disloyal Grunt can do it all by himself, but add a loyal Mordin and Kasumi (say) to the team, and the three of them will fail and Grunt will be an ex-krogan...)

I just don't get why anyone would think their ship had upgrades, but that not researching them wouldn't matter. There's got to be a reason these things exist, right? Same with loyalty missions (albeit you can lose loyalty in a couple of arguements if you are usingCharm/intimidate heavily).

[Saibh]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Considering how ****ing hardcore we are and how I often see someone not as hardcore routinely have squad deaths I would like to completely invalidate your point. 

Besides it was all common sense anyway.  You can't have a more difficult common sense or less difficult, it just is. 

Actually, that is a good point. Those of us here are probably BioWare vets and can easily predict how they work. I still stand by my point though--the forums, here and elsewhere, (although back then I only lurked) were inundated with shrieking about particular characters dying for some reason. Usually during Hold the Line.

Also, I never considered the SM to be suicide for me. I was concerned for my teammates, not for myself. I think I had read somewhere that you could die, but I had ten loyal companions, and chances seemed slim.

[Schattenkeil]

Unlikely. The problem is, there is no way of telling what the result of your choices will be unless you read a walkthrough up in front.

I saved the whole crew of the ship but lost Garrus, Mordin and Jack. Garrus, because I chose him for tech specialist. Mordin and Jack fell through "hold the line".   I didn't have Zaed at all, Grunt was escort, Garrus was dead - so no-one who could give four points. With me were Miranda and Legion at the boss fight, so hold the line would be Samara, Thane, Jacob, Tali, Mordin and a non-loyal Jack. The resulting average is 1.33 which resulted in the death of Jack and Mordin. I anticipated to send the sturdiest as escort and chose Grunt, because I anticipated weaker squad members wouldn't be able to protect the crew. If Garrus hadn't died earlier only Jack would have died or if I hadn't chosen Tali or Mordin instead of Grunt for escort Mordin would have survived (either 7 to a score of 12 or 6 to a score of 11).

I don't know why that was such a horrible bad decision. I chose Garrus for tech specialist because he was good at working independently, was one hell of a sniper and the tech part didn't sound so very difficult. So I chose him. I chose Grunt for escort because I thought the crew was in danger if I didn't give them someone really sturdy. I was under the impression that if I sent Tali or Mordin that would put my crew in danger. I think that's pretty reasonable.

I just don't know how one could have anticipated all of this from the game as is. It's not like it gives you a lot of clues. As a matter of fact, after the first playthrough, I didn't know that you could save them. I was under the believe that the tech specialist always died, because mine did, and that you always loose the least loyal member. (While Mordin was loyal I disagreed with him about a number of things regarding the ruthlessness of his actions - not so much as far as the genophage was concerned but on other, minor things)

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:03 .

[glacier1701]

My first playthrough ended up with a full live team but I lost half the crew. That was because I was used to the way that BW normally did things which means it was not time senstive when in fact it was. Running the SM was just a question of reading and when I got through it I felt really cheated in that I felt let down it was so easy. With the hype before hand it sounded like it was going to be much harder yet ended up nowhere near as hard as it was claimed to be. In fact I would say that the game devs went out of their way to make sure that the end would be as easy as possible provided you got the upgrades and loyalty. So they were not lazy but went out of their way to be user friendly though as far as I am concerned that cheapened the end result.

[Talogrungi]

On my first playthrough, I lost half the crew because I didn't immediately go through the Omega 4 relay.

I also lost Thane; I was one of those eejits who thought "hot, dry, vent .. Thane likes hot, dry places!" and completely disregarded the whole "tech expert" thing on the reasoning that as an Assassin, he's got to be decent at tech stuff in order to get past alarms and locks, hasn't he?

Turns out, not so much.

On the whole import thing, I believe that the ME3 squad will consist purely of the squad members who survived the suicide mission. It makes sense given that two people have to survive the suicide mission for Shepard to live.

I imagine there would be a "default" list of survivors for non-imports/new games.

[Schattenkeil]

Talogrungi wrote...

I also lost Thane; I was one of those eejits who thought "hot, dry, vent .. Thane likes hot, dry places!" and completely disregarded the whole "tech expert" thing on the reasoning that as an Assassin, he's got to be decent at tech stuff in order to get past alarms and locks, hasn't he?.

That was about my reasoning, too. The tech part didn't sound so difficult, but it did sound like a job for an infiltrator. So I chose Garrus. because I thought he'd get the job done. I thought about Legion who is a good sniper, too, but I just didn't trusted him as much as I trust Garrus. I feared he might turn out to be a reaper agent after all. Never considered Thane, though, because I didn't really considered him to be a tech type at all.

It's not like all my choices have been bad. It was good to pick Miranda respectively Jacob for the fireteams, it was good to send an escort, just not that I chose grunt for it. I correctly chose Samara for the shield (which is the only viable choice with a non-loyal Jack). It was good to fully upgrade my ship and do the mission right away. (The truth is, I did scan a few planets up in front, for additional resources to buy the upgrades I was still missing, but when I found a mission on a planet I skipped it.)

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:41 .

[Atmosfear3]

On my very first playthrough, funnily enough I chose almost everything correctly, with one exception and still had every survived.



Tech - Legion (read description plus common sense)

Fire team leader 1 - Jacob

Biotic - Samara (same reason as Legion)

Fire team leader 2 - Jacob

Escort - Grunt (this was my one bad choice since I thought Grunt was useless all game considering I never needed him)

Took Miranda and Samara with me to Reaper



Even though I was missing Grunt for holding the line, my whole team survived /shrug

[Schattenkeil]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

On my very first playthrough, funnily enough I chose almost everything correctly, with one exception and still had every survived.

Tech - Legion (read description plus common sense)
Fire team leader 1 - Jacob
Biotic - Samara (same reason as Legion)
Fire team leader 2 - Jacob
Escort - Grunt (this was my one bad choice since I thought Grunt was useless all game considering I never needed him)
Took Miranda and Samara with me to Reaper

Even though I was missing Grunt for holding the line, my whole team survived /shrug

That means you had Zaeed with you. With the base game alone Mordin should have died, you would have 7 guys worth 13 points holding the line - average 1.86, which would have resulted in Mordin dying. It also means that you strictly chose the "paragon" option and nothing else, because otherwise Jack or Miranda would not have been loyal. If you had both Kasumi and Zaeed with you an non-loyal Miranda or Jack holding the line would have caused Mordin's death as well.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 04 octobre 2010 - 05:35 .

[ashwind]

I watched Kelly liquefy right before my eyes in my first playthgough... >.<" just because I didnt know that I have to go get them immediately (I was actually thinking, ah silly RPG, they wont take time into account, let go scan the rest of the galaxy...)



I return to an empty ship ~sniff~ Tis very sad...

[Whatever42]

Most people will complete the mission with most of their squad alive. I only lost Mordin. If everyone did their loyalty missions and everyone even half-listened to the recommendations for the specialist tasks then that will be the case. That means, if they bring back most of the squadmembers, the large majority of players will get to experience a large majority of the content. And those that don't will be encouraged to replay ME2.



Personally, I don't think there is any legitmate reason that they couldn't bring back the squad. I dismiss the claims that it would be prohibitively more expensive. If Bioware decides to not bring back all or most of the squad then it will be for simple design purposes (they think we love the idea of new squadies or that the characters are too shallow to develop further).

[Lord_Tirian]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Most people will complete the mission with most of their squad alive. I only lost Mordin. If everyone did their loyalty missions and everyone even half-listened to the recommendations for the specialist tasks then that will be the case. That means, if they bring back most of the squadmembers, the large majority of players will get to experience a large majority of the content. And those that don't will be encouraged to replay ME2.

Yeah, only Mordin was a bit tricky to figure out - mainly because most probably took the big guns to the boss fight... leaving the soft and squishy Mordin in a not very well held line.

...but apart from that? Everything else was very obvious and well hinted at.

[Christianson]

I only have one question among many more I wont bother to ask. How did any of you know the first playthrough to do Jacks loyalty mission only after you had an enormouse amount of paragon points so you could resolve the arguement betweet Jack and Miranda without losing one of them as loyal????