120 réponses à ce sujet

[Frybread76]

Godeskian wrote...

This thread makes me feel all inadequate given that I'm not perfect and so many here are.

I mean, am I really the only one here who decided that garrus, being the only team member besides tali to lose his entire team should in no way have been leading a fireteam?

It reminds me of when KOTOR came out and EVERYONE who posted in the forums knew the main character was Revan.

[RiouHotaru]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

To counter your statement, it's never been a given that they WON'T return.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It's been strongly suggested, though. By keeping the really important characters - Liara and Ashley/Kaidan out of the ME2 squad.

RiouHotaru wrote...
I hope for your sake it works out like that.  If they start you out on the Normandy or something you could end up with a broken game.  Remember, they removed the "infinite skill-point glitch" because it could corrupt files.

Glitches do corrupt files. It's something that wasn't planned for. Such simple things as plot flags were planned for and they only switch content on/off, independently of each other. So I doubt any harm can come out of altering them in the Save Editor as opposed to the game itself. It ain't rocket science, after all.

There are some minor "glitches", however, with absolutely legitimate saves. For instance, if you get Garrus killed on the "suicide mission" and later come to Omega or Donovan Hock's party, the game seems to think that Garrus hasn't been recruited and is still beseiged by the mercs. But Emily Vong reports the death of Sidonis on the Citadel. So if BioWare really want to spare themselves a lot of headaches, and avoid this minefield of Conrad Verner -style glitches as much as possible (while they deal with really important loose ends of the main story line), they will keep the ME2 squad comeback short and simple. Hence, it's either a cameo, or a Zaeed-like DLC minus the loyalty mission, or at the very most a one-two mission stint LotSB-like (but still playable even without the featured squadmate).

I agree with you on those minor glitches.  I recently found out that abusing Lorik Qui'in's dialog wheel in ME1 for infinite paragon/renegade points can corrupt files as well.  I'm just saying that, in your file, NO ONE might be alive, which means there might be problem in scenes where someone (anyone perhaps) is supposed to appear to do/say something.  Since you need a minimum of...was it 2 or 3 squaddies alive to finish the game?  Having less than that (because the only way to get less is to cheat) might cause the game not to recognize your save.

As for the VS and Liara being left out to avoid character death, that just means there's likely to be a DLC with them, which requires they be alive for it (possibly a LotSB-style DLC), or because they're needed for a relevant plot point which we aren't aware of yet.

I just think the "all or nothing" mentality in terms of returning squadmates is a bit extreme.  The VS survivor being left out so that they can be used later doesn't mean the ME2 squaddies will be rendered as cameos.

My personal theory would fit somewhere in between "all-return" or "none-return" in that  BW gives us X slots for squaddies, where X is whatever arbitrary number, and we have to pick from the pool of candidates who we want in those slots.  The rest become NPC cameo roles.

I find it hard to believe ME3 will be standalone (though I can understand it from a marketing perspective) because why would anyone pick up a game from the third and final installment?  You've basically missed the entire darn story.  I'm still curious how BW will do ME2 on the PS3 for that same reason.

[crimzontearz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

uh.....how is it nopt fair to let people deal with the consequences of their actions (read playing ME2 ****** poorly)? isn't that what ME was all about as a serie?

Having the squad alive IS the consequences! Enjoy.

Well...that is not an answer. How is it unfair to make people deal with the consequences of their actions

Those that lost people will have to deal with no cameos. Those that saved all will enjoy all the cameos.

You can't seriously expect Shepard to not be able to recruit a new bunch of fashion show winners to save the Galaxy once more.

That still does not answer the question.

My question is how is it unfair to make people deal with the consequences of their actions/choices?

Maybe Bioware will grow a quad and make them deal with it maybe not but if they really decided to limit the content for those who played ****** poorly or chose to kill people off HOW would it be unfair? As for sticking it to the new players bioware already did it in ME2 and I totally agree. Whoever complains about it is as worthy of attention as those idiots who complain about being confused watching "the empire strikes back" without having watched "a new hope"

Modifié par crimzontearz, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:44 .

[Saibh]

I personally believe that some of your old squad leave no matter what. Some might leave during the course of the game. I do believe that the rest will stay on board. Some of them have no conceivable reason for leaving you--none at all, like being loyal and exiled. Especially the romances--where are they going?



I think that it's possible the VS comes back, and you get up to three other squadmates. Maybe if you already have a full crew you can't recruit them, who knows? In ME1 recruiting wasn't an important thing, and it needn't be in ME3, if you already have a squad.

[Nozybidaj]

Saibh wrote...

Surviving the suicide mission didn't seem so easy. Yes, once you knew what you had to do, you could perfectly plan it out, but who among us with no prior knowledge always upgraded their ship, always chose the right specialist (especially with Miranda telling you that anyone would do), knew exactly who to make fire team leader, who to take with them when, and waited until the very end of the game to go on the Derelict Reaper and immediately pursued the Omega-4 Relay?

With no prior knowledge, that seems pretty difficult.

That's actually pretty much how my game went.  Do the loyalty missions, get your ship upgrades, don't pick non tech people for tech jobs (etc.), everyone lives.  What is really so hard about that?

The only time any really planing or strategy comes into doing the "suicide" mission is when you want to kill only specific people.  Then who is loyal/not, what upgrades you do/don't have, and who you pick for which jobs really has any effect on the outcome.

Edit: I agree with Zulu though.  I don't think how easy/hard the "suicide" mission is perceived to be will have any impact on having a brand new squad in ME3.  That's pretty much a given at this point isn't it?

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Zulu_DFA]

crimzontearz wrote...
for those who played ****** poorly or chose to kill people off 

You're still missing the whole point. From the devs' perspective, having squadmates A, B, C alive and squadmates X, Y, Z dead in the end of ME2 is not a choice. It's the consequences of such "choices" as mining or not enough planets, upgrading the Normandy or your submachineguns, going for offensive variant of your evolved class instead of defensive and consequently failing to defuse the "catfights"... It's already played out its part, it's over.

In ME3, if anything, the "Big Choices" must have their due consequences - the ones that really affect the Galaxy. Suicide mission fatalities in all their emotional weight for some players can't affect the Galaxy much. Even if Shepard dies, it only affects him - he won't be the one to save the day in ME3 - it'll be his long lost twin brother Default "Loo" Shepard.

RiouHotaru wrote...
I agree with you on those minor glitches.  I recently found out that abusing Lorik Qui'in's dialog wheel in ME1 for infinite paragon/renegade points can corrupt files as well.  I'm just saying that, in your file, NO ONE might be alive, which means there might be problem in scenes where someone (anyone perhaps) is supposed to appear to do/say something.  Since you need a minimum of...was it 2 or 3 squaddies alive to finish the game?  Having less than that (because the only way to get less is to cheat) might cause the game not to recognize your save.

ME2 NG+ perfectly recognizes them. As for some ME3 cutscene involving an ME2 squadmate, like that "Ashley running up to Shepard", it's simply too inexpedient to put it in. Look what they did to Miranda in the "suicide mission": they needed her for all those little comments up to the last section, so they gave her the plot armor. No plot armor - no cutscenes.

RiouHotaru wrote...
As for the VS and Liara being left out to avoid character death, that just means there's likely to be a DLC with them, which requires they be alive for it (possibly a LotSB-style DLC), or because they're needed for a relevant plot point which we aren't aware of yet.

It just means, like Casey said, they want them to be in ME3 [cutscenes], so they gave them the plot armor for ME2, and the LotSB only proves that again - no "Big Choice" there, no making multiple states of Liara to deal with in ME3. And though we aren't aware of the plot points of ME3 that Liara and Ashley/Kaidan will be relevant to, we are aware of the plot points of ME3 the ME2 squad will be relevant to: such plot points are non-existent.

RiouHotaru wrote...
I just think the "all or nothing" mentality in terms of returning squadmates is a bit extreme.  The VS survivor being left out so that they can be used later doesn't mean the ME2 squaddies will be rendered as cameos.

My personal theory would fit somewhere in between "all-return" or "none-return" in that  BW gives us X slots for squaddies, where X is whatever arbitrary number, and we have to pick from the pool of candidates who we want in those slots.  The rest become NPC cameo roles.

That could be a good mechanic for some other game. Where squadmates are like furniture. You can choose between a green big one or a blue slim one. But that's not what is expected of the BioWare squadmates. Hence, even if BioWare takes that route, it'll only be a path to dissappoint those very people that demand the squadmates return the loudest. I, for one, don't care if Zaeed had a dialogue wheel in ME2. His merc stories were awesome. But do you think the Talimancers will ever forgive BioWare if Tali returns in ME3 as squadmate, but without a dialogue wheel?

RiouHotaru wrote...
I find it hard to believe ME3 will be standalone (though I can understand it from a marketing perspective) because why would anyone pick up a game from the third and final installment?  You've basically missed the entire darn story.  I'm still curious how BW will do ME2 on the PS3 for that same reason.

Because some people were too young, or didn't have the money, or time. Or just accidentally.

Even without this "standalone" thing, new squadmates are preferable, because they are new. And the old are used up. CALIBRATIONS!!!!

[Therion942]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because some people were too young, or didn't have the money, or time. Or just accidentally.

Even without this "standalone" thing, new squadmates are preferable, because they are new. And the old are used up. CALIBRATIONS!!!!

New squadmates are never preferable.
Inevitable, sure.
Preferable? Hardly. It would be nice if BioWare actually showed some ****ing stones and put on their "****ing Deal With It" sunglasses.

Small chance of that though.

[Christianson]

I like the new characters better than the old ones because Im not as sick of them as I am of the old ones:)

[Elyvern]

I hate you, Zulu, I really do. Now I must hang on even harder to the fact that since they aren't making changes to the game engine, I can take that as a possiblity that they'll spend development time on more cut scenes, more ME2 squadmate-related material. I'm even fine if they don't come back as squadmates, just don't give me a horizon cameo and a email, I'll go into a rampage.

[RiouHotaru]

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I'm not against new squadmates, not at all. And I do agree, Zaeed and Kasumi didn't need full dialog wheels to be interesting party members. But I feel dumping these characters they developed so strongly for the sake of ones completely new or fresh feels...cheap.



Now, this isn't the same as the way BW "dumped" Ashley/Kaidan/Liara, becaus they had to be given Plot Armor, but this is the grand finale. Why dump these characters in the last act of the story, when thy could have the most significance to the plot.



I'll just remain hopeful that BW will not let us down. Even if there are strong indications that suggest otherwise, I'll wait for a definitive, Word Of God statement.

[Zulu_DFA]

Elyvern wrote...

I hate you, Zulu, I really do. Now I must hang on even harder to the fact that since they aren't making changes to the game engine, I can take that as a possiblity that they'll spend development time on more cut scenes, more ME2 squadmate-related material. I'm even fine if they don't come back as squadmates, just don't give me a horizon cameo and a email, I'll go into a rampage.

Well, I can only suggest, that if you're up for some of what they call "emotional engagement", you kill off your ME2 squad, then do the LotSB - and read the stuff about them on the terminal.

RiouHotaru wrote...

Now, this isn't the same as the way BW "dumped" Ashley/Kaidan/Liara, becaus they had to be given Plot Armor, but this is the grand finale. Why dump these characters in the last act of the story, when thy could have the most significance to the plot.

Nobody says nothing about "dumping". But giving the "closure" for each character is only a secondary objective in ME3. The primary objective is to give the closure to Shepard and his anti-Reaper quest. The squadmates don't have the right (so to say), to get in the way of that.

Besides, death on the "suicide mission" is a good closure. For example, I killed off Mordin BECAUSE I liked him, and felt that BioWare can't possibly give him a better closure that his "Tell them... I held the line!" vale diction.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 octobre 2010 - 07:03 .

[crimzontearz]

I call BS.



You can argue as much as you want that it's all about just shepard and his closure but Bioware would have to be stupid to ignore the simple fact that removing squadmates continuity almost in its entirety would be something very few would forgive...then again bioware made pretty retarded movesbefore

[Zulu_DFA]

crimzontearz wrote...

I call BS.

You can argue as much as you want that it's all about just shepard and his closure but Bioware would have to be stupid to ignore the simple fact that removing squadmates continuity almost in its entirety would be something very few would forgive...then again bioware made pretty retarded movesbefore

Well, at least I hope you've stopped fooling yourself, that the "suicide mission" was such a trifle because BioWare had been planning all along to save themselves the trouble of making a new squad for ME3.

[Saibh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I call BS.

You can argue as much as you want that it's all about just shepard and his closure but Bioware would have to be stupid to ignore the simple fact that removing squadmates continuity almost in its entirety would be something very few would forgive...then again bioware made pretty retarded movesbefore

Well, at least I hope you've stopped fooling yourself, that the "suicide mission" was such a trifle because BioWare had been planning all along to save themselves the trouble of making a new squad for ME3.

If that's what you want to think. At the same token, some of your squadmates have nowhere to go. Some of them have outright told you they're not leaving until the Reaper threat is over. Some of them--like Kasumi and Zaeed--I'm sure leave no matter what.

The thing about ME3 is they don't need to worry about continuity. They don't need to worry that, down the line, they're going to have twelve major variables on the status of this particular squadmate. A character like Alistair in DAO, for instance, could have been in so many different places by the end of Origins that including him in Awakening was impossible. ME3 has two options: alive or dead. Are they with you at the end of the game, or aren't they?

If the other characters are reduced to cameos, I suppose them's the breaks. I just feel that they're missing out on some great opportunities emotionally. I don't mind hoping since I never feel as crushed as some other people do if what I want doesn't happen.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saibh wrote...

If that's what you want to think. At the same token, some of your squadmates have nowhere to go. Some of them have outright told you they're not leaving until the Reaper threat is over. Some of them--like Kasumi and Zaeed--I'm sure leave no matter what.

[sigh]

Zaeed has nowhere to go. Just read his goddamn retirement plan, at TSB's terminal. Might as well help you fight the Reapers, which makes all his previous adventures seem small time.

Kasumi has a crush on Jacob, so she stays too.

Right?

[Saibh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saibh wrote...

If that's what you want to think. At the same token, some of your squadmates have nowhere to go. Some of them have outright told you they're not leaving until the Reaper threat is over. Some of them--like Kasumi and Zaeed--I'm sure leave no matter what.

[sigh]

Zaeed has nowhere to go. Just read his goddamn retirement plan, at TSB's terminal. Might as well help you fight the Reapers, which makes all his previous adventures seem small time.

Kasumi has a crush on Jacob, so she stays too.

Right?

I mentioned them specifically because they're DLC characters. Only a fraction of us actually own them. These forums are not a good gauge on that percentage, since we're very likely to be BioWare addicts, right?  And only half imported as it is. A fraction of a fraction probably doesn't warrant them coming back.

I'm not going to complain if they're there--I liked them both--but they make a lot of sense in leaving. They were both paid to help Shepard. Their contracts are over once you defeat the Collectors. They can go back to merc work and thieving. They're also non-romancable, so people are going to be less offended they're not included.

Modifié par Saibh, 06 octobre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Saibh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saibh wrote...

If that's what you want to think. At the same token, some of your squadmates have nowhere to go. Some of them have outright told you they're not leaving until the Reaper threat is over. Some of them--like Kasumi and Zaeed--I'm sure leave no matter what.

[sigh]

Zaeed has nowhere to go. Just read his goddamn retirement plan, at TSB's terminal. Might as well help you fight the Reapers, which makes all his previous adventures seem small time.

Kasumi has a crush on Jacob, so she stays too.

Right?

I mentioned them specifically because they're DLC characters. Only a fraction of us actually own them. These forums are not a good gauge on that percentage, since we're very likely to be BioWare addicts, right?  And only half imported as it is. A fraction of a fraction probably doesn't warrant them coming back.

I'm not going to complain if they're there--I liked them both--but they make a lot of sense in leaving. They were both paid to help Shepard. Their contracts are over once you defeat the Collectors. They can go back to merc work and thieving. They're also non-romancable, so people are going to be less offended they're not included.

So..... If Zaeed and Kasumi are the only survivors of the suicide mission, then Shepard could potentially be completely alone with Joker&EDI on the SR-2 in ME3! 

[Zulu_DFA]

Saibh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saibh wrote...

If that's what you want to think. At the same token, some of your squadmates have nowhere to go. Some of them have outright told you they're not leaving until the Reaper threat is over. Some of them--like Kasumi and Zaeed--I'm sure leave no matter what.

[sigh]

Zaeed has nowhere to go. Just read his goddamn retirement plan, at TSB's terminal. Might as well help you fight the Reapers, which makes all his previous adventures seem small time.

Kasumi has a crush on Jacob, so she stays too.

Right?

I mentioned them specifically because they're DLC characters. Only a fraction of us actually own them.

Yet they may be exactly that "last pair standing" often used as "proof" that the surviving ME2 squadmates will return as squadmates in ME3.

Saibh wrote...
These forums are not a good gauge on that percentage, since we're very likely to be BioWare addicts, right?  And only half imported as it is. A fraction of a fraction probably doesn't warrant them coming back.

Now that you mention it, maybe it's time to think how large is really the fraction of people that cares at all about the ME3 squad composition.

Saibh wrote...
I'm not going to complain if they're there--I liked them both--but they make a lot of sense in leaving. They were both paid to help Shepard. Their contracts are over once you defeat the Collectors. They can go back to merc work and thieving. They're also non-romancable, so people are going to be less offended they're not included.

They are just as fair a game as any other "suicide mission" expendable. But this talk "who leaves and who stays" is absolutely irrelevant, because with the last ME2 DLC everybody "leaves", even if some may rejoin later (in ME3) as DLC squadmates, or 1-2 mission LotSB-like squadmate cameos, or only send a "nice e-mail". Because in ME3, Shepard starts at Level 1.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 octobre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Saibh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yet they may be exactly that "last pair standing" often used as "proof" that the surviving ME2 squadmates will return as squadmates in ME3.

I honestly don't know if you can have them be the last two, but I'll take your word for it. As I said, I'm not writing it off, but it makes sense for them to leave no matter what. I do believe that ME3 will introduce new squadmates regardless.

Now that you mention it, maybe it's time to think how large is really the fraction of people that cares at all about the ME3 squad composition.

Squadmates are actually a really important part of marketing hype--generally everyone cares who your new squaddies are. And I imagine a lot of people who played the first two games would like to see some of the old squadmates return. Probably a whole lot don't care, either.

But even of these people, only a fraction downloaded the DLC. Of that, only a fraction will import. Of that, even cared about them, as they only had their loyalty missions and were non-romancable. I already said you can make a case for them staying, but their stance is much weaker than the other squadmates. There are several good reasons for them to leave you, and there are good reasons for them to stay.

They are just as fair a game as any other "suicide mission" expendable. But this talk "who leaves and who stays" is absolutely irrelevant, because with the last ME2 DLC everybody "leaves", even if some may rejoin later (in ME3) as DLC squadmates, or 1-2 mission LotSB-like squadmate cameos, or only send a "nice e-mail". Because in ME3, Shepard starts at Level 1.

They are DLC characters. They are not in the vanilla game--the majority won't have even heard of them. They have specific character reasons to not stay with you.

I can hope some of them return. There are good arguments why they might, from a thematic and storytelling perspective. I don't believe all of them will. I won't shed sobby tears if they don't. I'll be very disappointed, but them's the breaks.

Modifié par Saibh, 06 octobre 2010 - 09:05 .

[Frybread76]

Lizardviking wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saibh wrote...

If that's what you want to think. At the same token, some of your squadmates have nowhere to go. Some of them have outright told you they're not leaving until the Reaper threat is over. Some of them--like Kasumi and Zaeed--I'm sure leave no matter what.

[sigh]

Zaeed has nowhere to go. Just read his goddamn retirement plan, at TSB's terminal. Might as well help you fight the Reapers, which makes all his previous adventures seem small time.

Kasumi has a crush on Jacob, so she stays too.

Right?

I mentioned them specifically because they're DLC characters. Only a fraction of us actually own them. These forums are not a good gauge on that percentage, since we're very likely to be BioWare addicts, right?  And only half imported as it is. A fraction of a fraction probably doesn't warrant them coming back.

I'm not going to complain if they're there--I liked them both--but they make a lot of sense in leaving. They were both paid to help Shepard. Their contracts are over once you defeat the Collectors. They can go back to merc work and thieving. They're also non-romancable, so people are going to be less offended they're not included.

So..... If Zaeed and Kasumi are the only survivors of the suicide mission, then Shepard could potentially be completely alone with Joker&EDI on the SR-2 in ME3! 

Well, EDI now IS the Normandy-SR2, so you don't need a large crew.  And maybe Bioware will allow Shepard to solo missions in ME3 if only Zaeed and Kasumi survive the SM? 

Modifié par Frybread76, 06 octobre 2010 - 10:09 .

[Lunatic LK47]

RiouHotaru wrote...
I agree with you on those minor glitches.  I recently found out that abusing Lorik Qui'in's dialog wheel in ME1 for infinite paragon/renegade points can corrupt files as well.  I'm just saying that, in your file, NO ONE might be alive, which means there might be problem in scenes where someone (anyone perhaps) is supposed to appear to do/say something.  Since you need a minimum of...was it 2 or 3 squaddies alive to finish the game?  Having less than that (because the only way to get less is to cheat) might cause the game not to recognize your save.

RiouHotaru, can you provide a link for that please? Google and the forum search functions are still ****ing useless in this regard.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .