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[errant_knight]

Persephone wrote...

HFN Origin: Eleanor's decision in the end

I am very moved by it. But a friend of mine completely disagreed. Citing that Eleanor's duties as a mother should matter more. That living for her children should have been her choice. I am torn. What do you guys think?

Her children are adults. She's done her duty by them, and if she doesn't want to leave her husband to die alone, that's a decision she's free to make without ethical qualms, in my opinion. Also, she's delaying discovery of the tunnel, and pursuit, making her daughter's escape more likely. In my view, it's a brave decision. She's sacrificing herself for her husband and daughter.

[Sarah1281]

So we know that Eleanor and Bryce were deeply in love and Eleanor refused to leave Bryce's side as he lay dying but what do you think would have happened if the positions had been reversed and Eleanor had been the one who was lying dying? Bryce was the Teyrn. Would he have left with Duncan or stayed to die with his wife?

[Zjarcal]

Ouch, that's a tough question.



I'm not sure if Bryce would've done the same thing. I'd like to think that he would (again, I'm a terrible romantic, sue me), but something tells me he wouldn't. I can't quite put my finger on it and I really don't want to think about it too much.

[tool_bot]

I don't know. Hopefully he'd leave and try to see justice served for what happened.



Knowing how much everyone loves the romantic hero nonsense though, I'd say he'd stay behind and die full of righteous anger and all that other good stuff.

[Reika]

If the positions were reversed, I don't think Bryce would've stayed, he was the one who kept reminding his child about their duty, even before Howe attacked. He probably would've carried his dying wife out of the castle though.

[TJPags]

Tough question. As Teryn, he has other responsibilities than his family.  I think the question is, which takes precedence?
As I said with her choice, I'd much prefer the "pick her up and carry her with us" option, which is actually more possible with 3 men.

But, assuming that's not an option . . . .I think he SHOULD leave her there, and go with Duncan and his kid.  Not sure I'd do that, however.

[The Almighty Ali]

She would've been dead either way, even if she went with them then they would either part ways afterwards as the Warden rituals are secret and would risk bumping into Soldiers of Howe or Bandits on her way to Denerim who would probably overpower, violate and kill her. Also even if she reached Denerim, Howe would get ahold of her afterwards anyways.



Or, She came with them to Ostagar and died there while the Warden and Alistair was in the tower or saved by Flemeth.

[TJPags]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

She would've been dead either way, even if she went with them then they would either part ways afterwards as the Warden rituals are secret and would risk bumping into Soldiers of Howe or Bandits on her way to Denerim who would probably overpower, violate and kill her. Also even if she reached Denerim, Howe would get ahold of her afterwards anyways.

Or, She came with them to Ostagar and died there while the Warden and Alistair was in the tower or saved by Flemeth.

She sure would have.  But it's an issue of leaving your wife to die alone in a castle being overun by your enemies, or staying by her side until the end.

[tool_bot]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

She would've been dead either way, even if she went with them then they would either part ways afterwards as the Warden rituals are secret and would risk bumping into Soldiers of Howe or Bandits on her way to Denerim who would probably overpower, violate and kill her. Also even if she reached Denerim, Howe would get ahold of her afterwards anyways.

Not neccesarily. While Howe was a feared nobleman, the Couslands were very much beloved (from what I understand) They could have easily found someone between points A and B that could take her in while a case was made against Howe. Especially considering just how far Ostagar is from Highever there's no reason to think they wouldn't have someone willing to take her in.

[Sarah1281]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

She would've been dead either way, even if she went with them then they would either part ways afterwards as the Warden rituals are secret and would risk bumping into Soldiers of Howe or Bandits on her way to Denerim who would probably overpower, violate and kill her. Also even if she reached Denerim, Howe would get ahold of her afterwards anyways.

Or, She came with them to Ostagar and died there while the Warden and Alistair was in the tower or saved by Flemeth.

I think you're being too pessimistic. 'Parting ways' doesn't mean that Eleanor is off completely by herself. She would probably end up heading over to the Highever troops once the Joining started (and there was no reason she couldn't stay with Duncan before then). Also, why on Earth would she travel alone to Denerim? She's not stupid and she's not helpless. Not all bandits are rapists, either, and she's a bit old for many of them anyway. Also, Eleanor would know that she was in danger (she's right there when everyone's talking about warning Fergus) and make sure to not give Howe's men an opportunity to kill her.

Besides, even staying at Ostagar there's nothign to say she can't flee the battleground. Plenty of other people do and it wouldn't even be desertion as she's not in the army.

[tool_bot]

@Sarah1281

two small quibbles, first, age really wouldn't matter to a band of roaming thugs and rape in this case wouldn't have much to do with attraction anyway. second, after googling Eleanor I find myself very jealous of Bryce.

Modifié par tool_bot, 17 octobre 2010 - 01:10 .

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

@Sarah1281

two small quibbles, first, age really wouldn't matter to a band of roaming thugs and rape in this case wouldn't have much to do with attraction anyway. second, after googling Eleanor I find myself very jealous of Bryce.

I didn't say it would stop ALL of them. I said it would probably stop SOME of them.

[The Almighty Ali]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

She would've been dead either way, even if she went with them then they would either part ways afterwards as the Warden rituals are secret and would risk bumping into Soldiers of Howe or Bandits on her way to Denerim who would probably overpower, violate and kill her. Also even if she reached Denerim, Howe would get ahold of her afterwards anyways.

Or, She came with them to Ostagar and died there while the Warden and Alistair was in the tower or saved by Flemeth.

I think you're being too pessimistic. 'Parting ways' doesn't mean that Eleanor is off completely by herself. She would probably end up heading over to the Highever troops once the Joining started (and there was no reason she couldn't stay with Duncan before then). Also, why on Earth would she travel alone to Denerim? She's not stupid and she's not helpless. Not all bandits are rapists, either, and she's a bit old for many of them anyway. Also, Eleanor would know that she was in danger (she's right there when everyone's talking about warning Fergus) and make sure to not give Howe's men an opportunity to kill her.

Besides, even staying at Ostagar there's nothign to say she can't flee the battleground. Plenty of other people do and it wouldn't even be desertion as she's not in the army.

Perhaps, but I'm just going by my own logical reasoning here.

She's a capable fighter but even so a lone person can only defeat so many, not to mention she would be struggling emotionally with the loss of her husband and grandchild, furthermore Howe would naturally increase his resources inorder to silence her and possibly manipulate Loghain to help get rid of her to harm the warden if she managed to seek refuge. If they managed to poison Arl Eamon, who was also well liked and respected among the nobles, Then they could manage to have her die by a "tragic accident". Only reason Fergus survived against Howe was because he was receiving medical aid in the wilderness and Howe thought he had died at the hands of the darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Would a husband leave his wife behind to enemies who might violate her? That would be a huge assault on his honor and the honor of his family. Not to mention the possibility of torturing her.

In a lot of cases, people used to give their loved ones a quick death rather than allow them to fall in the hands of the enemy. It's an option available to him, though I am almost certain that he wouldn't do it.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Would a husband leave his wife behind to enemies who might violate her? 

Now that you mention this, I really don't think Bryce would let that happen. So I'm moving to the camp that says that Bryce would stay with her.

Gah! I hate this topic.

[tool_bot]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

She's a capable fighter but even so a lone person can only defeat so many, not to mention she would be struggling emotionally with the loss of her husband and grandchild,

This largely depends on the individual. I don't really know the characters from the Noble Origin but I know a lot of people would only be motivated by this to see justice through. Having a mission or job is a great way to distract yourself from whatever emotional hardship you're going through.

furthermore Howe would naturally increase his resources inorder to silence her and possibly manipulate Loghain to help get rid of her to harm the warden if she managed to seek refuge.

This would come later after she had already made his actions at Highever known. Once word spread Howe would be hated by every noble in the nation for such a treasonous move. Many may wish to put him down just to set an example for any vassals who might want to attempt the same.

If they managed to poison Arl Eamon, who was also well liked and respected among the nobles, Then they could manage to have her die by a "tragic accident".

Very true, but this would happen after his crimes had been denounced and at this point in the game he'd be dealing with the Civil War and his failed attempts at assassinating the Warden. Loghain might even no longer see him as a useful ally by this point and abandon him to the wolves.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Would a husband leave his wife behind to enemies who might violate her? That would be a huge assault on his honor and the honor of his family. Not to mention the possibility of torturing her.
In a lot of cases, people used to give their loved ones a quick death rather than allow them to fall in the hands of the enemy. It's an option available to him, though I am almost certain that he wouldn't do it.

I thought about this myself and I'm glad you said it first. If taking her with them is too risky and would slow them down, Bryce knows that he at least has the benefit of being able to grant Eleanor a much more merciful death than she would receive at the hands of Howe's men. I don't think he'd do it either, but I do think the thought would pass through his mind.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Would a husband leave his wife behind to enemies who might violate her? 

Now that you mention this, I really don't think Bryce would let that happen. So I'm moving to the camp that says that Bryce would stay with her.

Gah! I hate this topic.

Or give her a quick death and run off.

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
 
In a lot of cases, people used to give their loved ones a quick death rather than allow them to fall in the hands of the enemy. It's an option available to him, though I am almost certain that he wouldn't do it.

Mercy killing? If she were mortally wounded I don't see why not. If I were the injured party, I might very well commit suicide then and spare myself the possible pain a raiding party could inflict on an injured enemy (they had no qualms with butchering a child) and (hopefully) remove whatever was keeping my spouse and child from escaping a lost battle.