143 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm not claiming it's not fun.
I'm claiming it's stupid.

I was replying to Steve, not you.

Also, no.

[DMC12]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

Your post reminds me of a buddy of mine when I used to blaze (I quit a long time ago). He would always want us all to have his high, when we really didn't find it that awesome. Play it your way, but let the rest of us have our fun in our own way too. Hopefully Bioware will implement the respec option from Awakening, like what they did with stamina potions (I remember them apparently being in DA2 from one preview).

No design decision is made in isolation.

If the respec option is available, then the game's design needs to take it into account.

Look at DAO.  There were some talents that weren't very useful, but they were prereqs for talents that were.  A respec option allows you to take a different, actually useful talent, and then once you have the extra point you can respec to undo that last talent and add the prereq plus the top-notch talent.

That would make the game easier at low levels (you could maximise your build for each talent point total), and thus change the balance.

I don't see where you're coming from. You can't just go from the various talents you had, then respec and fill up certain talent trees. Most talents had level and ability requirements, sometimes both, which means you'd need to be at that required level in order to access them. Similarly you would also have to sacrifice some ability points to meet the requirement for a talent, which would most likely cause an inbalance in your character that wasn't favorable to you.

Skills are better example as to why there should be a respec option. You can start off and add some persuasion, traps, and survival to your character, but then as you go along you realize that your main character is better off specializing in persuasion, while Leliana can make traps and Alistair can be your enemy detecting survival expert. It's just a way to not punish the player, but rather help them learn the game.

[Ensgnblack]

In a single player game, balance is a different beast I would say, Sylvius. If the game is too easy with a respec option then:



1. Dont use it, or

2. Adjust your difficulty slider up.



If the top doffoculty is near impossible, which it should be to always give players a challenge, then the addition of an option that makes it easier is not a problem.



The only problem I see with respec tomes is they do not really have a good in game justificaiton. It is a bit jolting to immersion. I see that as far more important than early game balancing since you are not forced to use it and the game could just be made harder on higher difficulties (which I believe they said they were doing).

[svendigo]

Fake difficulty is fake

[Sylvius the Mad]

DMC12 wrote...

I don't see where you're coming from. You can't just go from the various talents you had, then respec and fill up certain talent trees.

Let's say you have Force Field, and you just got another point to spend.  You want Crushing Prison, but you don't have Telekinetic Weapons yet (prereq for Crushing Prison), and you don't really need another weapon buff right then.

So instead, you take some other talent that is useful right now (say Glyph of Paralysis).

But the next time you level up, you till want Crushing Prison, you you respec to regain last level's point and then buy both Telekinetic Weapons and Crushing Prison.

The respec allowed you to get Crushing Prison as soon as possible, but you didn't have to pay the price in the intervening level by carrying a talent you didn't need.  That intervening level because easier by respeccing.

If the game expects this sort of player behaviour, the game will be balanced differently.

So even if I never use the respec, its inclusion in the game does affect me, and as such it is not unreasonable of me to voice my opposition.

[Kajros]

I think having a respec option would be helpful. Maybe even just like in Awakening where you purchase a book. Instead of buying the book for 6 gold maybe up it some? There were just some characters I wanted to respec even in Origins and I could not do so. Like Zevran for example. He had some skills but you could not max out the dual-wielding tree because he had so many more points into rogue tree.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If they do use an Awakenings-style respec, I hope the book is expensive enough to prevent frivolous respecs.

I don't imagine 6 gold was much money in Awakenings, but it was a fair amount in DAO.

[upsettingshorts]

What if, after respec'n, there was a montage showing the character retraining?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:03 .

[DMC12]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

I don't see where you're coming from. You can't just go from the various talents you had, then respec and fill up certain talent trees.

Let's say you have Force Field, and you just got another point to spend.  You want Crushing Prison, but you don't have Telekinetic Weapons yet (prereq for Crushing Prison), and you don't really need another weapon buff right then.

So instead, you take some other talent that is useful right now (say Glyph of Paralysis).

But the next time you level up, you till want Crushing Prison, you you respec to regain last level's point and then buy both Telekinetic Weapons and Crushing Prison.

The respec allowed you to get Crushing Prison as soon as possible, but you didn't have to pay the price in the intervening level by carrying a talent you didn't need.  That intervening level because easier by respeccing.

If the game expects this sort of player behaviour, the game will be balanced differently.

So even if I never use the respec, its inclusion in the game does affect me, and as such it is not unreasonable of me to voice my opposition.

The price is paid in the amount of gold need for the respec book. If my memory serves me correctly, then they cost about the same, if not more, than one of the talent tomes. That money could have been used to buy an armor/weapon/accessory or a usable good good like a bunch of healh potions. So given that, I'd say that respecing caters more to higher level players than lower level ones, and I always found the game to be harder at lower levels than higher ones, so I still don't think balance would be an issue.

Also, the respec option won't affect you. If DA had multiplayer à la Demon's Souls, then yes it would, but it's an entirely single player experience - your experience.



Edit: never mind the expensive respec option, it was only 6 gold (thought it was expensive most likely because I'm a frugal bastard). I think that was a balance issue though, since your character would be at least level 18 for Awakening, so you're not stuck with a bunch of talents you don't want like having a human noble with shield bash when you wanted to go two-hander.

Modifié par DMC12, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

DMC12 wrote...

Also, the respec option won't affect you. If DA had multiplayer à la Demon's Souls, then yes it would, but it's an entirely single player experience - your experience.

You're not listening.

That you respec would not affect me.

That the game (which I'm playing - we're all playing the same game) expects players to respec - that affects me.

Try to solve problems more than one layer deep.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

Also, the respec option won't affect you. If DA had multiplayer à la Demon's Souls, then yes it would, but it's an entirely single player experience - your experience.

You're not listening.

That you respec would not affect me.

That the game (which I'm playing - we're all playing the same game) expects players to respec - that affects me.

Try to solve problems more than one layer deep.

I don't think the game "expects" players to use every exploit they find.  Obviously DA:O on PC expects you to have to reload the occasional boss fight, but I don't think it "expects" players to unlock specializations, then reload so they don't spend the money any more than it would "expect" players to respec using a similar exploit that you described.  Designers don't build their game experiences around player exploits.

[DMC12]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

Also, the respec option won't affect you. If DA had multiplayer à la Demon's Souls, then yes it would, but it's an entirely single player experience - your experience.

You're not listening.

That you respec would not affect me.

That the game (which I'm playing - we're all playing the same game) expects players to respec - that affects me.

Try to solve problems more than one layer deep.

The only way it would affect you was if the enemies reacted differently to certain talents/skills/abilities that you have. They only react to your level. Respecing should come at a price of gold like in Awakening (although I think it should cost more since you'll start at a very low level), thus you have a difficult decision to make and scrutinize if you wanted to change a few things. That's not expecting players to respec, that's giving them an option if they made some potentially very flawed choices in the past that they can fix for a sacrifice.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Just an idea: Respec costs a talent/spell point instead of sovereigns.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

Also, the respec option won't affect you. If DA had multiplayer à la Demon's Souls, then yes it would, but it's an entirely single player experience - your experience.

You're not listening.

That you respec would not affect me.

That the game (which I'm playing - we're all playing the same game) expects players to respec - that affects me.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the designers would see this as an imperative to change the game balance.  I think the designers know that some players are going to twink out their characters, and they just write those players off as outliers.

In any event, I'm glad to hear that there's some precedence for this sort of thing in Awakenings.  Hopefully they'll implement it fully in DA2.  (I know it may not be your cup of tea, but I don't think it will have to affect your gameplay.)

[Sylvius the Mad]

DMC12 wrote...

The only way it would affect you was if the enemies reacted differently to certain talents/skills/abilities that you have. They only react to your level.

I can't believe you still don't get it.

Each encounter is designed to produce a specific level of challenge of the player.  If the player is expected to have an optimised build at all times, the encounter's design will need to be less forgiving in order to achieve that challenge level.  If the player is not expected to have an optimised build at all times, the encounter will need to be more forgiving to produce that challenge level.

Do you honestly not understand?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the designers would see this as an imperative to change the game balance.  I think the designers know that some players are going to twink out their characters, and they just write those players off as outliers.

If they think twinking out the characters will be easy and "fun", then they'd probably count the players who don't do it as outliers.

I don't want to give them that chance.

[Maverick827]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The respec allowed you to get Crushing Prison as soon as possible, but you didn't have to pay the price in the intervening level by carrying a talent you didn't need.

But why should any "intervening" talent be considered a price in the sense of a hindrance?  Shouldn't all talents be equally useful?

To suggest such masochistic gaming principals is so...Sylvius of you.

[Nerevar-as]

Games are becoming way too forgiving for the player, but this one is optional. Where´s the problem?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maverick827 wrote...

But why should any "intervening" talent be considered a price in the sense of a hindrance?  Shouldn't all talents be equally useful?

Why should they be?  I have no idea why you would think this.

To suggest such masochistic gaming principals is so...Sylvius of you.

If there's going to be a talent that's exceedingly useful, I would certainly design a game such that its prereqs were less useful than other talents.

So then the player could choose between a series of talents that were all equally useful, or a series that started out weak and grew more powerful toward the end.

Choice is good.

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

The only way it would affect you was if the enemies reacted differently to certain talents/skills/abilities that you have. They only react to your level.

I can't believe you still don't get it.

Each encounter is designed to produce a specific level of challenge of the player.  If the player is expected to have an optimised build at all times, the encounter's design will need to be less forgiving in order to achieve that challenge level.  If the player is not expected to have an optimised build at all times, the encounter will need to be more forgiving to produce that challenge level.

Do you honestly not understand?

Then perhaps a compromise.  Limited amounts of respecs.  Thus, the respec could not be used to twink a character, but instead would be used to get rid of a bad talent that turned out to be lame for one's character build.  Two or three total respecs would suffice.  Not nearly enough to affect game design on the level you're talking about, but enough to offer the benefits of respecs to those who want it.

And anyway, the whole point is moot, because Bioware games have been getting steadily easier, so I don't think you'd need to worry about your build not being optimized in future games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

JrayM16 wrote...

Then perhaps a compromise.  Limited amounts of respecs.  Thus, the respec could not be used to twink a character, but instead would be used to get rid of a bad talent that turned out to be lame for one's character build.

We already have that.

It's called Reload.

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Then perhaps a compromise.  Limited amounts of respecs.  Thus, the respec could not be used to twink a character, but instead would be used to get rid of a bad talent that turned out to be lame for one's character build.

We already have that.

It's called Reload.

Now that's just mean. 

[Maverick827]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Why should they be?  I have no idea why you would think this.

Perhaps "equally" was out of place, but why should any talent be considered a price?  Perhaps another talent would be more beneficial at the given time, but none should be considered absolutely useless, which was the case with many Origin talents.

If there's going to be a talent that's exceedingly useful, I would certainly design a game such that its prereqs were less useful than other talents.

So then the player could choose between a series of talents that were all equally useful, or a series that started out weak and grew more powerful toward the end.

Choice is good.

But if you have too many "exceedingly useful" talents, then you entirely omit choice.

There was the ability to respec in Awakenings, the Character Respec mod is one of if the the most popular mods, and Sylvius is being antagonistic about the whole idea; I'm sure based on these three criteria that the ability will be in DA2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maverick827 wrote...

Perhaps "equally" was out of place, but why should any talent be considered a price? 

To create barriers to entry for the better talents.

Perhaps another talent would be more beneficial at the given time, but none should be considered absolutely useless, which was the case with many Origin talents.

There were some useless talents, but that forced the player to give his selections careful consideration.

I'd say that's a good thing.

But if you have too many "exceedingly useful" talents, then you entirely omit choice.

I don't follow.

Ideally the game would be designed such that you couldn't have all of the best talents (DAO mages talents were like this).

[Maverick827]

If you have too many talents that are "required" because they are simply better than others (Mana Clash, Crushing Prison, Blood Wound, etc.) then there is no reason to take others. Hence, no real choice.