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[Ayanko]

Wouldn't that be rather boring, not having any ex's?. Would lack charecter and would just make it so that the PC didn't exactly had a life untill the adventure started. Unless you want a socially retarded PC then sure....

Modifié par Ayanko, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

Bann Duncan wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I also understand that this is metagaming, but you can't tell me that seeing the same storytelling device over and over again doesn't affect the player.  So please, for DA2, can we have a bit of a break from this?  There are plenty of other tropes out there--give them some love 

Seriously?

Zevran mentions his former lover once, and it's in the context of "I feel guilty for having killed her" and not "I miss her so much" and that's the only one in all of DAO and we STILL have the "OH MY GOD THIS IS SO OVERRRRUUSSED!" thing going on?

Get. Over. It.

Mr Gaider, the people on these forums will complain about everything. Heck if half of Mass Effect 3 was about Tali, the Talimancers would probably complain that "dem hips" are not the same.

Just keep making the great stuff you've been making.

I am sorry but I cannot hear you, your voice is being muffled by David Gaider's arse.

[Ayanko]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I also understand that this is metagaming, but you can't tell me that seeing the same storytelling device over and over again doesn't affect the player.  So please, for DA2, can we have a bit of a break from this?  There are plenty of other tropes out there--give them some love 

Seriously?

Zevran mentions his former lover once, and it's in the context of "I feel guilty for having killed her" and not "I miss her so much" and that's the only one in all of DAO and we STILL have the "OH MY GOD THIS IS SO OVERRRRUUSSED!" thing going on?

Get. Over. It.

Mr Gaider, the people on these forums will complain about everything. Heck if half of Mass Effect 3 was about Tali, the Talimancers would probably complain that "dem hips" are not the same.

Just keep making the great stuff you've been making.

I am sorry but I cannot hear you, your voice is being muffled by David Gaider's arse.

Glad someone said it...

[Sable Rhapsody]

David Gaider wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I'm not talking about any one specific case, but rather its consistent use across multiple titles.  Of course I understand that no one writer is responsible across titles, but it does get used in a lot of BioWare's games with some consistency.  Kind of like Obsidian and their trope of EVERYTHING IS HORRIBLE 

Uh-huh.

Well, we'll see if we can come up with something just for those with jaded sensibilities, so they can get off the couch and stop taking laudanum to dull the pain of enduring so many thousands of tropes. We will come up with something so refreshingly new that TVTropes will be forced to create a new category and somewhere, a hipster will smile.

Or not. But it's fun to think about.

I never said tropes were bad, nor did I ask for something wildly original.  I generally love your games, stories, and characters even if I make fun of some of them   (Making fun of RPG characters is like kicking one of those pink garden flamingos...I just can't resist)  I just think something different would be nice.  I entertain no illusions about you guys taking my suggestions.

[bsbcaer]

Ayanko wrote...

Also suprised we haven't seen a scenario where the players ex isn't dead but comes back to kick up a fuss with the PC's current romance. Oh that would be delicious...

Granted, this is in that "other game that shall not be named" but if you think about it, it could be done in the future third game of this bioware trilogy.  If you think about it, you romance either the human or alien in the first game and one (or both) survive, then you (more than likely) romance someone else in the second game, so you can really have some interesting experiences if the first romance and second romance are in the third game...

[David Gaider]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I never said tropes were bad, nor did I ask for something wildly original.  I generally love your games, stories, and characters even if I make fun of some of them   (Making fun of RPG characters is like kicking one of those pink garden flamingos...I just can't resist)  I just think something different would be nice.  I entertain no illusions about you guys taking my suggestions.

Oh, I know. I get the reductionism thing a lot, though, mostly from people who think it's the equivalent of clever criticism. Not that this is what you're doing, so I suppose it's unfair to lump you in with others. Sorry.

We like to do different things, ourselves. Not necessarily between all our projects, but for writers working on one project and the next. People who seem to be waiting for any element of what we do that happens to be similar to something else, and then pouncing on that as if they've discovered a weakness, can be a little bizarre. I can't say I honestly care about it that much.

[Ayanko]

bsbcaer wrote...

Ayanko wrote...

Also suprised we haven't seen a scenario where the players ex isn't dead but comes back to kick up a fuss with the PC's current romance. Oh that would be delicious...

Granted, this is in that "other game that shall not be named" but if you think about it, it could be done in the future third game of this bioware trilogy.  If you think about it, you romance either the human or alien in the first game and one (or both) survive, then you (more than likely) romance someone else in the second game, so you can really have some interesting experiences if the first romance and second romance are in the third game...

Hmm, Just because of this I'm stuck on making my warden the king and then to just run off with Morrigan. I Think Anora would have my ass....

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ayanko wrote...

Wouldn't that be rather boring, not having any ex's?. Would lack charecter and would just make it so that the PC didn't exactly had a life untill the adventure started. Unless you want a socially retarded PC then sure....

I wasn't referring to the PC, but instead to NPCs.  I have no problem with NPCs with exes.  The dead ex thing is IMO overdone.  Especially when it crops up in a context where it seems to be there for the sake of being there.  It's mentioned in one or two lines (like Zevran, which David Gaider raised), and dropped.  Personally, I felt characters like Valen and Zevran were fleshed out just fine as people without the dead ex thing being brought up.  Wouldn't Zevran's story arc worked just as well with a trusted friend?  Why specifically do all these poor lads and lasses have dead exes? 

[Bann Duncan]

Ayanko wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I also understand that this is metagaming, but you can't tell me that seeing the same storytelling device over and over again doesn't affect the player.  So please, for DA2, can we have a bit of a break from this?  There are plenty of other tropes out there--give them some love 

Seriously?

Zevran mentions his former lover once, and it's in the context of "I feel guilty for having killed her" and not "I miss her so much" and that's the only one in all of DAO and we STILL have the "OH MY GOD THIS IS SO OVERRRRUUSSED!" thing going on?

Get. Over. It.

Mr Gaider, the people on these forums will complain about everything. Heck if half of Mass Effect 3 was about Tali, the Talimancers would probably complain that "dem hips" are not the same.

Just keep making the great stuff you've been making.

I am sorry but I cannot hear you, your voice is being muffled by David Gaider's arse.

Glad someone said it...

Sorry but I will always try to fight the fanservice hordes to prevent Talimance and other awful fanservice from messing with my BioWare games.

[upsettingshorts]

If I want a reprieve from any Bioware "trope" it's the fact I have a bunch of squadmates available and can only use a handful of them at any given time.

Thankfully at least the final mission in Mass Effect 2 used the squad brilliantly - I hope ME3 is full of such missions. And from what I've gathered about the context of DA:2, the "take a couple" system will at the very least make more sense in that they're not all sitting around a campfire waiting for you to pick them like it's gym class.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:53 .

[David Gaider]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Wouldn't Zevran's story arc worked just as well with a trusted friend?

Err... no? This was someone he presumably cared about. Even a little. At some point you'd have to stop and ask yourself "Wow... am I some kind of unfeeling monster?" Even so, it could have just been a friend, sure. But what difference does it make, honestly? None at all, except to people who are still moaning about Carth.

Why specifically do all these poor lads and lasses have dead exes? 

Because they have exes. And some of them are dead. Generally it's different circumstances-- so the question really is: why wouldn't they have any? Just to avoid setting off the jaded? "Let's stay away from the ex thing specifically even if it makes sense"? Umm... no.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Bann Duncan wrote...

Sorry but I will always try to fight the fanservice hordes to prevent Talimance and other awful fanservice from messing with my BioWare games.

Poor Tali.  She doesn't deserve the hate OR the mania that she generates.  I genuinely like Tali.  She was my little protege who took a level in badass in ME2.  

[Ayanko]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ayanko wrote...

Wouldn't that be rather boring, not having any ex's?. Would lack charecter and would just make it so that the PC didn't exactly had a life untill the adventure started. Unless you want a socially retarded PC then sure....

I wasn't referring to the PC, but instead to NPCs.  I have no problem with NPCs with exes.  The dead ex thing is IMO overdone.  Especially when it crops up in a context where it seems to be there for the sake of being there.  It's mentioned in one or two lines (like Zevran, which David Gaider raised), and dropped.  Personally, I felt characters like Valen and Zevran were fleshed out just fine as people without the dead ex thing being brought up.  Wouldn't Zevran's story arc worked just as well with a trusted friend?  Why specifically do all these poor lads and lasses have dead exes? 

If Zevrans ex wasn't dead he wouldn't be in Fereldan, he wouldn't have accepted the job to kill the wardens. He did it as a sucide mission. And yeah, love it does that to people. If you played Human noble did you not tear through the Arl of denerims Castle killing all the guards just because one mentioned that they was in castle cousland?
It just adds back story and emotion. Gives people a reason to be reluctant to be with you, an example of these would be Morrigan and Zevran, the ones built on lust...Even Leliana had to be given a little something extra so she could be happy with your PC.

Modifié par Ayanko, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:56 .

[Bann Duncan]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

Sorry but I will always try to fight the fanservice hordes to prevent Talimance and other awful fanservice from messing with my BioWare games.

Poor Tali.  She doesn't deserve the hate OR the mania that she generates.  I genuinely like Tali.  She was my little protege who took a level in badass in ME2.  

The irony is that I quite liked Tali as a character in ME1 (I did not start frequenting the ME forums until a few months before ME2 release) but then I came online and saw the freakish degree of obsession a huge amount of people had. Remember that pillow/blow-up doll thing that one of them made and posted on the forum? But even so I figured that's just the fans and the game will be fine. Lo and behold Tali in ME2 suddenly in love with Shep (which was more than a little odd because they seemed almost like siblings in ME1) and obsessed with him.

[AlexXIV]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ayanko wrote...

Wouldn't that be rather boring, not having any ex's?. Would lack charecter and would just make it so that the PC didn't exactly had a life untill the adventure started. Unless you want a socially retarded PC then sure....

I wasn't referring to the PC, but instead to NPCs.  I have no problem with NPCs with exes.  The dead ex thing is IMO overdone.  Especially when it crops up in a context where it seems to be there for the sake of being there.  It's mentioned in one or two lines (like Zevran, which David Gaider raised), and dropped.  Personally, I felt characters like Valen and Zevran were fleshed out just fine as people without the dead ex thing being brought up.  Wouldn't Zevran's story arc worked just as well with a trusted friend?  Why specifically do all these poor lads and lasses have dead exes? 

Well it is really only Zevran. And he only tells it because he killed her which seems to be his greatest regret. Also it is wrapped in the last of his adventures he only tells you with high approval. She is not cruelly ripped out of his life by some bad twist of fate. It was wrong judgement on his part. I didn't think of it as cheap in any way. I was actually a bit shocked ...

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Poor Tali.  She doesn't deserve the hate OR the mania that she generates.  I genuinely like Tali.  She was my little protege who took a level in badass in ME2.  

Talimancers remind me of Browncoats.  Yes, Firefly was a good show with a lot of potential that had too short a run - but it isn't the standard for space opera awesomeness the Browncoats fervently claim it is, and as such their fanboyism actually makes me more critical of the show than I might have been otherwise.

Same with Tali.  I like Tali, she is an interesting character, but the level of devotion to her expressed here and elsewhere kind of weirds me out, so I find myself withdrawing from interacting with the character.

It's probably related to some kind of neuorsis in the DSM-IV somewhere.  I just don't know what it is.

[Ayanko]

Also, the one that didn't have an ex "Alistair" was socially arkward, he was goofy and didn't know what he was doing. Sure that appeals to some but to others it's just...."Euh, go away"

[Sable Rhapsody]

David Gaider wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Wouldn't Zevran's story arc worked just as well with a trusted friend?

Err... no? This was someone he presumably cared about. Even a little. At some point you'd have to stop and ask yourself "Wow... am I some kind of unfeeling monster?" Even so, it could have just been a friend, sure. But what difference does it make, honestly? None at all, except to people who are still moaning about Carth.

Why specifically do all these poor lads and lasses have dead exes? 

Because they have exes. And some of them are dead. Generally it's different circumstances-- so the question really is: why wouldn't they have any? Just to avoid setting off the jaded? "Let's stay away from the ex thing specifically even if it makes sense"? Umm... no.

I suppose the ex thing is a simple enough and obvious device to use.  It gets the point across quickly.  And for the record, I thought Carth was a well done character.  He was interesting, well-rounded, and well-written.  The fact that I disliked him so much is testament to that   

The ex thing makes sense, sure.  But I find its consistent use odd given how many other roles could easily make sense as well.  A trusted friend, a family member, a mentor/parental figure, etc.  (Of course I'm talking broadly, not about Zev in particular)  All things being equal, why not go for variety?

As for Zev in particular, and I could be wrong, my impression was that the reason he took on the mission to kill the Warden was his guilt over killing Raina.  Over laughing in her face, and her being innocent all along.  She didn't have to be his lover for that guilt to have that emotional punch.  Anyone he cared about--a friend, a trusted colleague, etc. would have worked just as well.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 04 octobre 2010 - 07:01 .

[GodWood]

Assuming Aveline is a LI the "trope" is going to appear again.

[_-Greywolf-_]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Poor Tali.  She doesn't deserve the hate OR the mania that she generates.  I genuinely like Tali.  She was my little protege who took a level in badass in ME2.  

Talimancers remind me of Browncoats.  Yes, Firefly was a good show with a lot of potential that had too short a run - but it isn't the standard for space opera awesomeness the Browncoats fervently claim it is, and as such their fanboyism actually makes me more critical of the show than I might have been otherwise.

Same with Tali.  I like Tali, she is an interesting character, but the level of devotion to her expressed here and elsewhere kind of weirds me out, so I find myself withdrawing from interacting with the character.

It's probably related to some kind of neuorsis in the DSM-IV somewhere.  I just don't know what it is.

Wait how did this thread turn into a Tali discussion?

Modifié par _-Greywolf-_, 04 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

It's a sidetrack, for my part I don't intend to pursue it. In fact for what it's worth, Tali's character doesn't have the "ex" issue at all. Which is, actually, kind of refreshing.

That being said, I really didn't notice the "issue" at all contained in the OP, but then I didn't do the Zevran romance and Leliana's relationship with her ex seemed to have more than enough depth to it to justify it being different.  And I've forgotten most of BG1-2 and KOTOR1-2, so I'm not really making comparisons to them when I'm playing DA or ME.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 octobre 2010 - 07:05 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ayanko wrote...

Also, the one that didn't have an ex "Alistair" was socially arkward, he was goofy and didn't know what he was doing. Sure that appeals to some but to others it's just...."Euh, go away"

Morrigan, Dawn Star, Silk Fox, Aerie, Liara, Garrus, Tali, and Viconia didn't have exes either, at least not ones that were brought up in-game.  Their personalities and approaches toward the PC were wildly different from one another.  

[Ayanko]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Wouldn't Zevran's story arc worked just as well with a trusted friend?

Err... no? This was someone he presumably cared about. Even a little. At some point you'd have to stop and ask yourself "Wow... am I some kind of unfeeling monster?" Even so, it could have just been a friend, sure. But what difference does it make, honestly? None at all, except to people who are still moaning about Carth.

Why specifically do all these poor lads and lasses have dead exes? 

Because they have exes. And some of them are dead. Generally it's different circumstances-- so the question really is: why wouldn't they have any? Just to avoid setting off the jaded? "Let's stay away from the ex thing specifically even if it makes sense"? Umm... no.

I suppose the ex thing is a simple enough and obvious device to use.  It gets the point across quickly.  And for the record, I thought Carth was a well done character.  He was interesting, well-rounded, and well-written.  The fact that I disliked him so much is testament to that   

The ex thing makes sense, sure.  But I find its consistent use odd given how many other roles could easily make sense as well.  A trusted friend, a family member, a mentor/parental figure, etc.  (Of course I'm talking broadly, not about Zev in particular)  All things being equal, why not go for variety?

As for Zev in particular, and I could be wrong, my impression was that the reason he took on the mission to kill the Warden was his guilt over killing Raina.  Over laughing in her face, and her being innocent all along.  She didn't have to be his lover for that guilt to have that emotional punch.  Anyone he cared about--a friend, a trusted colleague, etc. would have worked just as well.

True, but I wouldn't throw myself to the wolves (Lets say griffins) if it was a friend or work colleague. It was someone he was smitten with and well...loved. Like I said before love makes people do that sort of thing.

[AlexXIV]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ayanko wrote...

Also, the one that didn't have an ex "Alistair" was socially arkward, he was goofy and didn't know what he was doing. Sure that appeals to some but to others it's just...."Euh, go away"

Morrigan, Dawn Star, Silk Fox, Aerie, Liara, Garrus, Tali, and Viconia didn't have exes either, at least not ones that were brought up in-game.  Their personalities and approaches toward the PC were wildly different from one another.  

Actually we don't know if Morrigan had dead ex's. She wouldn't talk about them anyway.