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[Rhayth]

Good point on Shale....but the other comparisons are spot on. Carth and Alistair are incredibly similar personality...and I know Sten and Canderous would gladly share a beer after duking it out.

[Saibh]

Rhayth wrote...

Good point on Shale....but the other comparisons are spot on. Carth and Alistair are incredibly similar personality...and I know Sten and Canderous would gladly share a beer after duking it out.

Point out how they're really alike and I will take time out of my day to dissect it apart, I promise. Being able to get along is not the same thing as having a similar personality.

[Rhayth]

I would but i'm typing this on my ps3 net with my ps3 controller as my laptop is broke...so you can imagine how long it takes to type this out let alone a proper presentation for these comparisons but Ipromise you that I will when I get my new laptop in a few weeks...and they are dead on comparisons

[tmp7704]

Rhayth wrote...

and I know Sten and Canderous would gladly share a beer after duking it out.

I suspect Sten would rather play with kittens-

train kittens, i mean. Train.

[Bann Duncan]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Poor Henry.  He's the laughingstock of history.

He is?  Which historians have you been reading, ones employed by the House of York? 

I submit my alternative choice as the monarch who is the laughing stock of history.

Indeed. Henry VIII's split with the Roman Church and its political community allowed Britain to take a divergent path from the continent which allowed it to strengthen as the continent faded.

[Anarya]

Rhayth wrote...

I would but i'm typing this on my ps3 net with my ps3 controller as my laptop is broke...so you can imagine how long it takes to type this out let alone a proper presentation for these comparisons but Ipromise you that I will when I get my new laptop in a few weeks...and they are dead on comparisons

I mean I guess opinions may differ but they aren't the same character at all. They do share some similar qualities, I'm not denying that, but they aren't the same.

[Felene]

DA2 easter egg : a graveyard full of dead exs from Bioware game.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Felene wrote...

DA2 easter egg : a graveyard full of dead exs from Bioware game.

Ah, yes.  Here lie Fenthick, Morgana, Irikah, Raina, Deheriana, Khalid...erm...that one chick, that one other chick...

Maybe it'll be easier to just toss 'em all into a mass grave and leave it at that 

Also, weighing in on Carth and Alistair: sure, they're both "good" guys.  Honorable, generally easy to get along with, snarky, romance options for the female PC, bad fashion sense, etc.  So's Garrus, for that matter  Alistair, however, is young, naive, open-hearted, enthusiastic, and inexperienced.  Carth is older, experienced, battle-scarred, mistrustful, and cautious.  And Garrus is just made of the stuff of awesome 

My point is that the "honorable good guy" is something that BioWare does a lot, but there the similarities end.  They do lots of flavors of honorable good guy, which I can appreciate.  They feel sufficiently different that it's not as recycle-y to me as the dead ex thing is.

[Rhayth]

The shortest point I can make, and btw I didn't say exactly the same. But they both are warriors kinda bad ass, smartasses, but both will break into full blown depression with the right question, and both need help with family sidequest, and both feel completly betrayed if you side with anything less then absolute honor...but during the moment I spared Loghain and Alistair goes into his tunnel vision that all grey wardens are men of honor he storms off to become a drunk...Carth when you return with Bastilla at your darkside is all betrayed and runs off to be left stranded on a planet with no proper means of escape from it and i'm sure loses his mind after a few months there with no other life on this planet but Rancors. So yes Alistair fills his role as Carth sidekick quite well only slightly more snarkier.

[Saibh]

Rhayth wrote...

The shortest point I can make, and btw I didn't say exactly the same. But they both are warriors kinda bad ass, smartasses, but both will break into full blown depression with the right question, and both need help with family sidequest, and both feel completly betrayed if you side with anything less then absolute honor...but during the moment I spared Loghain and Alistair goes into his tunnel vision that all grey wardens are men of honor he storms off to become a drunk...Carth when you return with Bastilla at your darkside is all betrayed and runs off to be left stranded on a planet with no proper means of escape from it and i'm sure loses his mind after a few months there with no other life on this planet but Rancors. So yes Alistair fills his role as Carth sidekick quite well only slightly more snarkier.

But those are all cosmetic things, for the most part. I think Sable summed it up well--they have similar qualities, but in personality they're not alike. Also, Alistair doesn't feel betrayed for the same reason Carth does--Carth is acting as a purely good guy. You can argue Alistair is acting out of revenge and his idea of justice. Both have issues (is there a BioWare character that does not?), both are tough fighters (squadmate, so, a necessity), both are snarky, and that's about it.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Canderous didn't have a stick up his ass like Sten did. Both are my favorite companions in their respective games, which is saying something, but I wouldn't say they're that similar.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

DMC12 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I loved Zevran.  Even though he got friendzoned pretty hard by my Warden.  Did I do a little facepalming when I got Zev's conversation about Raina?  Yes, but only because I thought, "This again?"  And then it was back to feeling bad for poor Zev.  

All things equal, I care more about a character's dialogue, voice acting, personality, development arc, etc. than I do about the specific details of their backstory.  But I do prefer diverse backstories.  When I've heard the same thing in several different games, it loses the emotional punch that it's supposed to have. 

Did he try to kill you too? I've put him in the "friendzone" twice out of three playthroughs (one playthrough I was a total ass to him), and everytime he gets mad that my male human doesn't swing both ways and then tries to backstab me in the end. In my current playthrough, I just saved him time and slit his throat at the first encounter.

It makes me a bit PO'ed too, since I think he's a funny guy. But not all the gold bars, boots, and gloves in the game can stop his approval from plumeting by 20 points when I go, "No, Zevran, I'm not iterested in you because I'm not gay." So I guess that kind of makes him like Carth that he would get all worked up in a temper tantrum after everything I've done for him... But maybe that's generalizing too much.

That's funny. My first complete playthrough of DA:O was as a female elven mage. I had her flirt with Zevran somewhat just to see where his story went but she was never rude to him, even when I decided he was a poor match. He went Yoshimo on her, that kind of suprised me.

Next playthrough I played my male elven rogue, he shot down Zevran's advances, wasn't terribly friendly with him and didn't have a huge approval rating with the NPC but, for some strange reason Zevran stayed loyal. My rogue was even deciding which pickle barrel to stuff Zevran's corpse into in anticipation of betrayal. It was a nice suprise to be let down!

I have a female dwarven rogue playthrough where Zevran didn't romance the character but he didn't betray her.

Overall I never could trust the character, plus he looks like a toad. I keep expecting him to let out a "crrrroak!" in his dialogues.

[Elessara]

Hmm. I've never had a problem with Zevran and I always friendzone him. But then I don't flirt with him or give him any indication that I'm interested in him so he always stays warm/friendly. And he's never betrayed me.

[Schneidend]

It's funny to choose the responses where your Warden has never even considered the possibility of homosexuality.



I figured my Cousland dude was raised in a castle his entire life. He was learned about history, poetry, and the arts of war, but simply didn't have any exposure to a same-sex lifestyle.



Zevran: You're pretty attractive, my friend. We should totally have sex.

Darius Cousland: *stage-whispers* Zevran, buddy, I'm a dude. Your eyesight all right?

[Sable Rhapsody]

I still think the funniest was the thread in the old forums where someone claimed to have gotten surprise sexed by Zev. Dev comments were suitably snarky.

On the point of Carth, Canderous, Wrex, etc.--there are character archetypes that get reflavored, reskinned, and reused. BioWare does it. SquareEnix does it. Just about every video game company that produces games with a semblence of plot does it. For me, it's a question of implementation as well as a question of originality. If the "honorable good guy" is well-implemented and well-differentiated enough that I don't think of Keldorn when I talk to Garrus, that's good. If every time Vanille in FFXII opens her mouth I think "requisite FF kooky Spice" and want to strangle her with piano wire, that's bad.

(True story.  My boyfriend has literally forbidden me from speaking when he plays FFXIII because I just peanut gallery or rage at the incompetence of some of the characters.  So I make spluttering noises instead.  I've been warned that soon I shall be banned from being in the same room as Final Fantasy altogether.)

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:11 .

[SilentK]

Ha ha @ Sable Rhapsody =)

I pretty much do the same thing with my husband, but for us it is different fantasy series. Poor hubby =)



I almost always play really really good characters, so I guess that my warden would prefer to have buddies that are good. And quite possibly a LI that is good too. I would have a problem to romance a LI that was acting in a way that I didn't approve of =) * ohh....you club baby seals as a friday night pasttime... ok, no problems * So I don't have to much a problems with there being good persons in my party, as long as they are different good persons.



A friend actually challenged me to do a more "evil" warden, with my definition it's probably someone that's late with the library books. I will give it a try =) it'll will actually be fun to see what changes that gives in the game.

[Anarya]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I still think the funniest was the thread in the old forums where someone claimed to have gotten surprise sexed by Zev. Dev comments were suitably snarky.

I've heard of this thread before and it sounds hilarious, every time. Anyone got a link? It was before my time, sadly.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Rhayth wrote...

and I know Sten and Canderous would gladly share a beer after duking it out.

I didn't find Sten and Canerous similar at all.  Canderous had a fairly simple personality, and I never really liked him.  But Sten is awesome.  Sten's probabaly my favourite DAO companion.

[Milky Way]

Anarya wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I still think the funniest was the thread in the old forums where someone claimed to have gotten surprise sexed by Zev. Dev comments were suitably snarky.

I've heard of this thread before and it sounds hilarious, every time. Anyone got a link? It was before my time, sadly.

Unless Sable is referring to another thread, I remember reading about it on this site. Quick search with the word 'massage' shows the thread I remembered: http://social.biowar...7/index/104055. It's still funny.

[Gegenlicht]

I'm really not bothered by dead exes. Hell, I have one of my own, though I'd obviously prefer it if she was neither, but that's life. TMI, I know.



The Bioware LI trope that always bothers me is the outwardly cool ****y female that secretly just wants to be held and thusly needs a man to fix her.



Viconia and Morrigan as well as Jack and Miranda are prime examples of this. Bastila and Ashley probably count too. Mind you, I do like the LIs being presented with a tough exterior and suggesting you need to actually work on getting through to them. But once you're through, they tend to get kinda gushy. Bastila and Morrigan get away the best from this but especially Viconia and Jack just feel broken after the culimantion of their respective romances (worst if you get Viconia to shift alignments). I get that both characters had major issues in their backstories, but the implication here almost feels like a moral or social statement from Bioware that once you choose to project an anti-social personality to protect yourself, you can't ever let anyone in beyond that barrier without the barrier itself breaking up completely, and that not projecting an anti-social personality is somehow 'better', even if you're on a ship full of black ops types, casual killers and war criminals



I'm hoping very strongly that DA2s Rivalry system will provide us with a similarly aligned LI that will not turn into goo once you've successfully romanced them but rather offer us something the Miranda romance in ME2 should have provided with (and which Bastila and Morrigan almost managed to do but ultimately failed at because of their more or less subtle inferences that the LIs were secretly fawning over the character, even if they didn't want to admit it): An LI who feels like an equal of the PC, a partner rather than a groupie. Ugh, that's a mess of a sentence.

[oenis]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Personally, I don't think it's that big an issue. Any "trope" is fine, as long as the writing holds up.
All I would ask is that Raphael Sbarge is kept well away from the recording studio.

Dude, eat my boogers.

[Bann Duncan]

Anarya wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I still think the funniest was the thread in the old forums where someone claimed to have gotten surprise sexed by Zev. Dev comments were suitably snarky.

I've heard of this thread before and it sounds hilarious, every time. Anyone got a link? It was before my time, sadly.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/104055/1

It was absolutely hilarious. Almost as funny as the reactions of Talimancers to exploding Tali.

Gegenlicht,

I don't think Morrigan and Bastila (except for that persuade option that comes up at the end - you know what I mean I don't want to spoil) fall into that category. Morrigan doesn't particularly become all soft once romanced. And Bastila is prickly because of her haughtiness and the Jedi prohibition of romance.

Though you do have a point with Viconia and Jack.

[Anarya]

Thanks for the link, guys! *off to read*

[Gegenlicht]

Bann Duncan wrote...

I don't think Morrigan and Bastila (except for that persuade option that comes up at the end - you know what I mean I don't want to spoil) fall into that category. Morrigan doesn't particularly become all soft once romanced. And Bastila is prickly because of her haughtiness and the Jedi prohibition of romance.

Though you do have a point with Viconia and Jack.

Heh, don't get me started on the Jedi. The KOTOR games really made me root for the Sith because the Jedi seemed all about stripping everything that makes humans human from them. Hence I'll stop talking about that.

Also, I generally agree(d) with you on Morrigan and Bastila, though  never elaborated. Both of them never lose track of who they are for the most part. They don't suffer as radical of a change as Jack and Viconia do.

That said, there's several instances where it's at least implied that Morrigan's secretly all over the Warden if they're in a relationship. The moment of hesitation and glint of sadness in her eyes when you break up, the gift of the ring (rather bluntly put into perspective by Ariane), the fact that she bore the Warden's child even if there was no Dark Ritual... the fact that she waits for the Warden by the Eluviel and is quite easily convinced to take him along... all those are signs that she's rather attached to the Warden. Which starkly contrasts all the opinions about relationships she expresses in the beginning of DA:O. She never quite loses her anti-social shell, but the person underneath seems to be revealed to have been longing for warmth and companionship, it just needed a determined lover to work their way past the abuse. It's certainly a bit of a matter of interpretation.

With regards to Bastila, there's less evidence. Partially because conversations in KOTOR are a bit more limited to large meaningful chunks of them at a time rather than bits and pieces here and there, partially because the romance option only presents itself comparatively late into your relationship with Bastila. And lastly because she does not break in one swift crack, but slowly here and there, conversation by conversation. Yet I very strongly got the impression all along that she got... happier the more you urged her to play fast and loose with her principles. By making her find closure with her mother, convincing her that feelings have a place, kissing her... you get the idea.


Again, yes, it's most crass with Viconia and with Jack, but it happens often enough for me to see a repeating pattern here. Of course, none of them are as bad as Jaheira who wants to jump your bones even before her husband's corpse has sufficiently cooled off.

[LiquidGrape]

oenis wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Personally, I don't think it's that big an issue. Any "trope" is fine, as long as the writing holds up.
All I would ask is that Raphael Sbarge is kept well away from the recording studio.

Dude, eat my boogers.

Happily. As long as Raphael Sbarge is kept well away from the recording studio.