815 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

wizardryforever wrote...
So it's not like Shepard goes along without complaint. 

So just because Shepard has one line of dialogue, we're supposed to accept that he'd be stupid enough to believe an organisation that has tried to kill him on multiple occasions, and then willingly submit and go wherever they say?

wizardryforever wrote...
 Besides, the illusion of choice is what we are basing our opinions off of?  Really?

In a game that was supposed to raise the bar when it came to choice and consequence, yes! Is that so much to ask that our choices actually feel like our choices? That we're not being force fed a bunch of missions, while being told we don't have to do them?

[StarcloudSWG]

Randy1083 wrote...
]I remember the dialogue, but it wasn't good enough. Why spend two years and over four billion credits on reviving Shepard if he could "stay and rot with the mechs" for all Miranda cared? He was the only one at the Lazarus Project who wasn't expendable, after all. Maybe Shepard decides he doesn't trust Miranda or Jacob--you know, what with their being Cerberus agents--and takes the shuttle for himself, leaving them to rot with the mechs instead.

Shepard: "All right. I see there's more than one evac shuttle here, I'm pretty sure I can get one prepped on my own, thank you. I'm going to see if there are survivors."
Miranda: "Be my guest."
Shepard: (turns his/her back to return to the station)
Miranda: (knocks Shepard out with a quick blow to the head)
Jacob: "Damn, Miranda. Did you have to do that?"
Miranda: "Shepard can **** about it later. At least he/she will be alive to do so. Come on."
(they drag Shepard into the shuttle)

[Randy1012]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
]I remember the dialogue, but it wasn't good enough. Why spend two years and over four billion credits on reviving Shepard if he could "stay and rot with the mechs" for all Miranda cared? He was the only one at the Lazarus Project who wasn't expendable, after all. Maybe Shepard decides he doesn't trust Miranda or Jacob--you know, what with their being Cerberus agents--and takes the shuttle for himself, leaving them to rot with the mechs instead.

Shepard: "All right. I see there's more than one evac shuttle here, I'm pretty sure I can get one prepped on my own, thank you. I'm going to see if there are survivors."
Miranda: "Be my guest."
Shepard: (turns his/her back to return to the station)
Miranda: (knocks Shepard out with a quick blow to the head)
Jacob: "Damn, Miranda. Did you have to do that?"
Miranda: "Shepard can **** about it later. At least he/she will be alive to do so. Come on."
(they drag Shepard into the shuttle)

Hey, I would have been totally cool with something like that. At least then it would have been more believable.

[Frybread76]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
]I remember the dialogue, but it wasn't good enough. Why spend two years and over four billion credits on reviving Shepard if he could "stay and rot with the mechs" for all Miranda cared? He was the only one at the Lazarus Project who wasn't expendable, after all. Maybe Shepard decides he doesn't trust Miranda or Jacob--you know, what with their being Cerberus agents--and takes the shuttle for himself, leaving them to rot with the mechs instead.

Shepard: "All right. I see there's more than one evac shuttle here, I'm pretty sure I can get one prepped on my own, thank you. I'm going to see if there are survivors."
Miranda: "Be my guest."
Shepard: (turns his/her back to return to the station)
Miranda: (knocks Shepard out with a quick blow to the head)
Jacob: "Damn, Miranda. Did you have to do that?"
Miranda: "Shepard can **** about it later. At least he/she will be alive to do so. Come on."
(they drag Shepard into the shuttle)

Yeah, sure.  An N7-trained cyborg is going to turn his back on two Cerberus agents and be taken out. LOL

[Urazz]

Personally, I think the main plot in ME1 was better set up than ME2's. To me, they put a bit too much emphasis on the loyalty missions over fighting the Collectors. I personally felt they could've added a few extra missions with Collectors to add on to it. It also would've been better if we actually interacted with Harbinger instead of just fight him and hear him spout lines every now and then.

[wulf3n]

StarcloudSWG wrote...
Shepard: "All right. I see there's more than one evac shuttle here, I'm pretty sure I can get one prepped on my own, thank you. I'm going to see if there are survivors."
Miranda: "Be my guest."
Shepard: (turns his/her back to return to the station)
Miranda: (knocks Shepard out with a quick blow to the head)

Shepard: "Ouch!!! What the FU..."
*BANG* *BANG* *BANG*
Miranda:(lies dead on the floor, grey matter coating the wall)
Shepard:(Turns to Jacob) So where are we going?
Jacob: Where ever you want Sir.
Shepard: Thats right!

[Randy1012]

wulf3n wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...
Shepard: "All right. I see there's more than one evac shuttle here, I'm pretty sure I can get one prepped on my own, thank you. I'm going to see if there are survivors."
Miranda: "Be my guest."
Shepard: (turns his/her back to return to the station)
Miranda: (knocks Shepard out with a quick blow to the head)

Shepard: "Ouch!!! What the FU..."
*BANG* *BANG* *BANG*
Miranda:(lies dead on the floor, grey matter coating the wall)
Shepard:(Turns to Jacob) So where are we going?
Jacob: Where ever you want Sir.
Shepard: Thats right!

Pretty much.

[Iakus]

cachx wrote...

This was a mistake.  This is supposed to be Shepard's story, not TIM's story.

Actually...

Mass Effect 2
has an untraditional structure, "building the team" as your narrative
thrust rather than just being relegated to the first act like in many
games. Was there a worry that people wouldn't get it or would be waiting
for the "real game" to start?



We knew it was a risk and something different. You're right, the story of Mass Effect 2
is very much about how you get ready for a mission by building a team
and understanding who they are, and about learning the magnitude of what
you're facing. The funny thing is that people will say "other than
gathering your crew and building your team and getting ready for this
mission, there's not much story there." But that is the story. In other
media, you find stories that are about so many different kinds of
things, different structures. In movies you find there are stories about
how someone gathers a team and makes them well equipped and well
trained.
(source)

This is not the first time this has been quoted. But people keep pushing what "it could have been" (wich is really: "what I wanted it to be" or "I would totally have had written it like that"). What a trite circle of discussion this is.

I'm familiar with that quote. Unfortunately: I have said there is no "getting them ready".  There is no training, no preparation, just personal errands.  Studying the Collectors would have gotten them ready.  integrating the team would have gotten them ready.  Practicing working together would have gotten them ready. Navigating personality conflicts, trying to get everyone to stand as one rather than turning on each other would have been really good.  But all we get is:

Recruit (yet another) squadmate
Run a personal errand for that squadmate, bringing along a silent third party member
Repeat as needed, hoping TIM isn't sitting on a crucial piece of information

Being TIM's errand boy would not be my first choice of a story, but I could deal if it really was a character driven story about building a team, earning loyalty, and preparing for a suicide mission.  But that's not what it is, exaactly.  Build team, sure, but get them ready?  Nu uh. 

ME 1's story was simple and to the point:  Stop Saren.  Here's the clues, now go get 'im.  ME2 might have aspired fro something higher, but fell flat on its face.  And I need no glasses, rose-colored or otherwise to see that.

[Revan312]

Frybread76 wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
]I remember the dialogue, but it wasn't good enough. Why spend two years and over four billion credits on reviving Shepard if he could "stay and rot with the mechs" for all Miranda cared? He was the only one at the Lazarus Project who wasn't expendable, after all. Maybe Shepard decides he doesn't trust Miranda or Jacob--you know, what with their being Cerberus agents--and takes the shuttle for himself, leaving them to rot with the mechs instead.

Shepard: "All right. I see there's more than one evac shuttle here, I'm pretty sure I can get one prepped on my own, thank you. I'm going to see if there are survivors."
Miranda: "Be my guest."
Shepard: (turns his/her back to return to the station)
Miranda: (knocks Shepard out with a quick blow to the head)
Jacob: "Damn, Miranda. Did you have to do that?"
Miranda: "Shepard can **** about it later. At least he/she will be alive to do so. Come on."
(they drag Shepard into the shuttle)

Yeah, sure.  An N7-trained cyborg is going to turn his back on two Cerberus agents and be taken out. LOL

I could see Miranda pressing a quick button on her omnitool which would short out shepards cybernetics.

In fact, I always thought that the cybernetics should have been a major plot point for working for Cerberus... They're forcing you to work with them or else.. bye bye Shepard, we'll just fry you from the inside out or detonate you like a bomb. etc etc.  Then I could have bought the Yes man role.. reluctant yes man, but one nonetheless

Shepard: "What the hell are you talking about!?!"

Miranda: "It's just a little insurance.. You didn't really think we'd rebuild you out of the kindness of our hearts did you?  I worked on you for 2 years of my life, so, you can either do what I say, or you can feel what it's like to have what's left of your flesh liquified into nothing but a puddle.."

Something along those lines.

Modifié par Revan312, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:16 .

[wulf3n]

Revan312 wrote...
I could see Miranda pressing a quick button on her omnitool which would short out shepards cybernetics.

In fact, I always thought that the cybernetics should have been a major plot point for working for Cerberus... They're forcing you to work with them or else.. bye bye Shepard, we'll just fry you from the inside out or detonate you like a bomb. etc etc.  Then I could have bought the Yes man role.. reluctant yes man, but one nonetheless

I didn't realise Shepard was such a **** that he'd give in to such idle threats. When has Shepard ever backed down because someone threatened to kill him?

edit:

Revan312 wrote...
Miranda: "It's just a little insurance.. You didn't really think we'd rebuild you out of the kindness of our hearts did you?  I worked on you for 2 years of my life, so, you can either do what I say, or you can feel what it's like to have what's left of your flesh liquified into nothing but a puddle.."

You really think Miranda is going to cripple Cerberus by destroying a project that cost them billions of credits. Especially a project that was designed to save the galaxy?

Modifié par wulf3n, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Frybread76]

Revan312 wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
]I remember the dialogue, but it wasn't good enough. Why spend two years and over four billion credits on reviving Shepard if he could "stay and rot with the mechs" for all Miranda cared? He was the only one at the Lazarus Project who wasn't expendable, after all. Maybe Shepard decides he doesn't trust Miranda or Jacob--you know, what with their being Cerberus agents--and takes the shuttle for himself, leaving them to rot with the mechs instead.

Shepard: "All right. I see there's more than one evac shuttle here, I'm pretty sure I can get one prepped on my own, thank you. I'm going to see if there are survivors."
Miranda: "Be my guest."
Shepard: (turns his/her back to return to the station)
Miranda: (knocks Shepard out with a quick blow to the head)
Jacob: "Damn, Miranda. Did you have to do that?"
Miranda: "Shepard can **** about it later. At least he/she will be alive to do so. Come on."
(they drag Shepard into the shuttle)

Yeah, sure.  An N7-trained cyborg is going to turn his back on two Cerberus agents and be taken out. LOL

I could see Miranda pressing a quick button on her omnitool which would short out shepards cybernetics.

In fact, I always thought that the cybernetics should have been a major plot point for working for Cerberus... They're forcing you to work with them or else.. bye bye Shepard, we'll just fry you from the inside out or detonate you like a bomb. etc etc.  Then I could have bought the Yes man role.. reluctant yes man, but one nonetheless

Shepard: "What the hell are you talking about!?!"

Miranda: "It's just a little insurance.. You didn't really think we'd rebuild you out of the kindness of our hearts did you?  I worked on you for 2 years of my life, so, you can either do what I say, or you can feel what it's like to have what's left of your flesh liquified into nothing but a puddle.."

Something along those lines.

If TIM wouldn't even let Miranda install a mind-control device in Shepard's brain, he sure as heck wouldn't allow her to kill Shepard through his cybernetics.

[Revan312]

wulf3n wrote...

Revan312 wrote...
I could see Miranda pressing a quick button on her omnitool which would short out shepards cybernetics.

In fact, I always thought that the cybernetics should have been a major plot point for working for Cerberus... They're forcing you to work with them or else.. bye bye Shepard, we'll just fry you from the inside out or detonate you like a bomb. etc etc.  Then I could have bought the Yes man role.. reluctant yes man, but one nonetheless

I didn't realise Shepard was such a **** that he'd give in to such idle threats. When has Shepard ever backed down because someone threatened to kill him?

edit:

Revan312 wrote...
Miranda: "It's just a little insurance.. You didn't really think we'd rebuild you out of the kindness of our hearts did you?  I worked on you for 2 years of my life, so, you can either do what I say, or you can feel what it's like to have what's left of your flesh liquified into nothing but a puddle.."

You really think Miranda is going to cripple Cerberus by destroying a project that cost them billions of credits. Especially a project that was designed to save the galaxy?

What are you talking about? I meant Tim would be the one that ordered her to do it and how would that have been an idle threat?..  She incapacitates Shepard and explains to him that his cybernetics can kill him/her at the flick of a button, I'm pretty sure anyone would start listening very closely to what Cerberus had to say at that point..  Unless your implying Shepard is suicidal and wants to simply die in the most horrific way possible..

Modifié par Revan312, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:22 .

[wulf3n]

Revan312 wrote...
What are you talking about? I meant Tim would be the one that ordered her to do it and how would that have been an idle threat?..  She incapacitates Shepard and explains to him that his cybernetics can kill him/her at the flick of a button, I'm pretty sure anyone would start listening very closely to what Cerberus had to say at that point..  Unless your implying Shepard is suicidal and wants to simply die in the most horrific way possible..

I'm implying Shepard wouldn't bow down to an organisation that committed acts of Treason, Grossly Unethical scientific experiments, Not to mention try and kill you on many occasions, simply because they threaten to kill you if you don't do what they say. 

edit: Also only a moron would put in a wireless access "kill switch". Any hacker with skill could break in and kill Shepard at any time! is that really something you want to put in your only hope for saving the galaxy? Hell, if that actually happened Wilson probably would have already killed you before you even reach Miranda.

Modifié par wulf3n, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Revan312]

wulf3n wrote...

Revan312 wrote...
What are you talking about? I meant Tim would be the one that ordered her to do it and how would that have been an idle threat?..  She incapacitates Shepard and explains to him that his cybernetics can kill him/her at the flick of a button, I'm pretty sure anyone would start listening very closely to what Cerberus had to say at that point..  Unless your implying Shepard is suicidal and wants to simply die in the most horrific way possible..

I'm implying Shepard wouldn't bow down to an organisation that committed acts of Treason, Grossly Unethical scientific experiments, Not to mention try and kill you on many occasions, simply because they threaten to kill you if you don't do what they say. 

But he bows down to them anyway, for no reason other than "you can rot with the mechs" "DERP... OKK PrEttY LaDy!"

I know my Shepard wouldn't have worked for Cerberus no matter the circumstances after playing the first game.. that is unless they forced my Shep to, which a control mechanism like instant incapactitation or death most likely would have done it.. Shepard is a brave hero yes, but he/she isn't retarded enough to scream "Then kill me!" after she explained such a thing..

And regardless of whether or not she could actually kill him with the flick of a switch, who's dumb enough to call her bluff after billions of dollars, being out for two years and all of that done by an organization that did horrific experiments/wanton murder..

Modifié par Revan312, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:34 .

[wulf3n]

Revan312 wrote...
But he bows down to them anyway, for no reason other than "you can rot with the mechs" "DERP... OKK PrEttY LaDy!"

Exactly the point we're making! ME2 force feeds you BS and expects you to swallow it.

Revan312 wrote...
I know my Shepard wouldn't have worked for Cerberus no matter the circumstances after playing the first game.. that is unless they forced my Shep to, which a control mechanism like instant incapactitation or death most likely would have done it.. Shepard is a brave hero yes, but he/she isn't retarded enough to scream "Then kill me!" after she explained such a thing..

Where does it stop? If they can kill you when ever they want? would you kill whoever they ask? would you do whatever they want?

Revan312 wrote...
And regardless of whether or not she could actually kill him with the flick of a switch, who's dumb enough to call her bluff after billions of dollars, being out for two years and all of that done by an organization that did horrific experiments/wanton murder..

Who's dumb enough to believe they'll destroy the multi-billion dollar, last hope for the galaxy project?

Modifié par wulf3n, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:39 .

[Revan312]

wulf3n wrote...

Exactly the point we're making! ME2 force feeds you BS and expects you to swallow it.

Where does it stop? If they can kill you when ever they want? would you kill whoever they ask? would you do whatever they want?

Who's dumb enough to believe they'll destroy the multi-billion dollar, last hope for the galaxy project?

I agree it force feeds you, I'm giving an opinion on what I thought could have been a good reason for Shepard working for such an organization.

And yes, they could force you to kill and do whatever they want within reason, It would have made some amazing scenes as Shepard is completely against what they want and voices it but has to do it anyway. Causing an extremely deep hatred for Cerberus even though they're trying to achieve the same goal as you ultimately.

And finally, I'm sure as hell that TIM would have wished for such a measure be in place when Shepard blows up the Collector base and gives a big middle finger to Cerberus. TIM spent billions on what is potentially someone who is wholly against their endeavers without any insurance that Shep will do anything they need.

It would be like pouring billions of dollars into a fighter jet that has it's own opinion and can turn against you if it wants.. Which is exactly what Cerb did..

Modifié par Revan312, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:49 .

[wulf3n]

Revan312 wrote...
I agree it force feeds you, I'm giving an opinion on what I thought could have been a good reason for Shepard working for such an organization.

And yes, they could force you to kill and do whatever they want within reason, It would have made some amazing scenes as Shepard is completely against what they want and voices it but has to do it anyway. Causing an extremely deep hatred for Cerberus even though they're trying to achieve the same goal as you ultimately.

There are different ways of forcing you that don't revolve around limiting your choices, or threatening you with death. I would have preferred If it had worked out that you weren't killed, were trying to stop the collectors from the very beginning, but weren't getting any support from the alliance or the council, then along comes Miranda/Jacob offering clues, advice and help. You accept, do a few missions for them, then you find out its Cerberus. You may want to leave, but TIM and your previous experience has shown that if you want to stop the collectors you'll have to work with Cerberus. So you reluctantly join, and with each mission, your moral values are stretched, until you can't recognise who you are anymore.

Even though that way still forces you to work for Cerberus(you could ignore Miranda all you want but the game won't progress) It will feel like your decision, and that would make working for Cerberus more powerful especially when they start asking you to do things against you moral values.

At least then i wouldn't get pissed off when a character bags me for working with Cerberus, even though i literally had no choice.

Revan312 wrote...
And finally, I'm sure as hell that TIM would have wished for such a measure be in place when Shepard blows up the Collector base and gives a big middle finger to Cerberus. TIM spent billions on what is potentially someone who is wholly against their endeavers without any insurance that Shep will do anything they need.

It would be like pouring billions of dollars into a fighter jet that has it's own opinion and can turn against you if it wants.. Which is exactly what Cerb did..

Perhaps, but your assuming TIM doesn't have any insurance so to speak, already. I'm sure he had contingency plans for Shepard betraying him. TIM may be evil, but he's not stupid.

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

The "uniting the galaxy" part should be left for ME 3, and hopefully it will be the main objective instead of another distraction pulled out of a hat.

But ME 2 really should have been about finding out more about the reapers, and possibly a way to stop them. (I guess we found out something about them, how they are created, but if there's one thing in the story that should be quickly explained away and forgotten in ME 3, it's that ridiculous "revelation".)

I had always imagined ME2 being about Shepard trying to stop the Reapers from making it out of Darkspace, and ultimately failing to do so, leading into ME3 and needing to untie the races, etc..   I suppose its neither here nor there at this point, but there it is.

Lot of good posts last few pages.  Too bad no one with say ever reads this stuff.

[Randy1012]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Lot of good posts last few pages.  Too bad no one with say ever reads this stuff.

I wish Casey Hudson, Mac Walters, and other Mass Effect developers were as active here as Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Mary Kirby, etc., are up in the Dragon Age forum. Alas...

Modifié par Randy1083, 09 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .

[Revan312]

wulf3n wrote...



There are different ways of forcing you that don't revolve around limiting your choices, or threatening you with death. I would have preferred If it had worked out that you weren't killed, were trying to stop the collectors from the very beginning, but weren't getting any support from the alliance or the council, then along comes Miranda/Jacob offering clues, advice and help. You accept, do a few missions for them, then you find out its Cerberus. You may want to leave, but TIM and your previous experience has shown that if you want to stop the collectors you'll have to work with Cerberus. So you reluctantly join, and with each mission, your moral values are stretched, until you can't recognise who you are anymore.



Even though that way still forces you to work for Cerberus(you could ignore Miranda all you want but the game won't progress) It will feel like your decision, and that would make working for Cerberus more powerful especially when they start asking you to do things against you moral values.



At least then i wouldn't get pissed off when a character bags me for working with Cerberus, even though i literally had no choice.



Perhaps, but your assuming TIM doesn't have any insurance so to speak, already. I'm sure he had contingency plans for Shepard betraying him. TIM may be evil, but he's not stupid.

If you want to rewrite the whole beginning than there are a thousand ways it could have been different and worked better, I was just trying to find a plot device that would have worked within the current structure of the game. I would have rewritten the entire priority of the game and subsequently the whole plot thereafter if I had control during development, but I wasn't so really we're just discussing ideas to what could of been a marginally improved experience through small changes.



But if I'm forced out the gate to work with a terrorist organization that I saw first hand do horrific things then I better be threatened or worse so I will join their cause, otherwise, I'm walking on the suspension of disbelief..

[bjdbwea]

Of course you could find numerous ways to better explain why Shepard has to work with Cerberus now. The problem is, nothing of it is in the game. Shepard just accepts it, and everything TIM says. And in the fery vew occasions where Shepard can object at all, the writers (through TIM) basically tell us, "so what, this is how the story goes, so just accept it".

This is not how a good story in an RPG should be told. Of course some events always need to happen if you want to tell a good story, but you can at least use the dialogue leading to the events to give the player a chance to give their player character some personality.

But of course part of the problem is that they chose such a simple and unimaginative way to advance the story. If it wasn't always TIM who tells Shepard what to do, then this problem with Shepard constantly being ordered around wouldn't arise in the first place.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 09 octobre 2010 - 09:23 .

[smudboy]

The player has to feel empowered. Making the literary role of the protagonist be active, that is, having them take charge of the plot, would've done so. Part of role playing is being able to create relationships or join groups to say what side you're on. This could've easily been accomplished with a simple system and a handful of dialog options (especially considering the huge number of information networks.)



Imagine hunting down the Collectors at your own pace: doing sensible things for recon and attacking stragegy/setting up traps. Doing proper research on Reaper tech. Acquiring an actual teal for explained reasons. etc. Every area of every main and sub plot event could have been written better.

[bjdbwea]

Or Shepard could've been on one of the colonies during an attack. Imagine meeting the collectors without knowing what they are and what their intentions are. Wondering about these things that they say to Shepard. How do they even know the name? Since there's no defense against the seekers, the team has to flee. What does Shepard think about that? Then they hear of more news of abducted colonies. But Shepard learns that no one wants to listen or help, except for Cerberus. So Shepard decides to work with them, actually discussing strategies with TIM. This would even have removed the "necessity" to kill the protagonist.

The possibilities are numerous, which makes the mediocre and shallow plot they decided to implement even less understandable.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 09 octobre 2010 - 02:07 .

[Iakus]

Randy1083 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Lot of good posts last few pages.  Too bad no one with say ever reads this stuff.

I wish Casey Hudson, Mac Walters, and other Mass Effect developers were as active here as Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Mary Kirby, etc., are up in the Dragon Age forum. Alas...

Agreed.