815 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

It's funny, I thought ME2's quests felt much more like "fetch quests".

You should also know that the measurement of content isn't just in raw bytes. Story, presentation and handling can make a small area feel big and a big area feel limited.

[DarthCaine]

Frybread76 wrote...

Sorry, man, but ME2 just is short of the main plot than ME1.  All those loyalty and recruitment missions don't even directly deal with the main plot, except for Mordin's, Okeer's and (maybe) Tali's.

I never said ME2 has a better main plot, in fact I prefered ME1's main plot (though that's the ONLY thing that's better than ME2)

I'm just saying, that without all the distraction sidequests, ME1 and ME2 have the same ammount of plot

Modifié par DarthCaine, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:08 .

[DarthCaine]

Nightwriter wrote...

Story, presentation and handling can make a small area feel big and a big area feel limited.

Which is why I much prefer ME2 over ME1. It's the presentation that matters the most, Avatar isn't the highest grossing movie of all time 'cos of it's story

Modifié par DarthCaine, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:11 .

[Nightwriter]

But that isn't true. You can't put plot in a beaker and measure it.

[DarthCaine]

Nightwriter wrote...

But that isn't true. You can't put plot in a beaker and measure it.

Yet, you persist that ME2 has much less plot

[Frybread76]

DarthCaine wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

Sorry, man, but ME2 just is short of the main plot than ME1.  All those loyalty and recruitment missions don't even directly deal with the main plot, except for Mordin's, Okeer's and (maybe) Tali's.

I never said ME2 has a better main plot, in fact I prefered ME1's main plot (though that's the ONLY thing that's better in ME1)

I'm just saying, that without all the distraction sidequests, ME1 and ME2 have the same ammount of plot

What?  No they don't.  More missions in ME1 dealt with the main plot than ME2.  I and others have listed them.  And, we can say that the RATIO of main plot missions actually dealing with the main plot is much higher in ME1 than ME2.

And you don't have to do those distracting sidquests in ME1 to complete the game, just like in ME2.  Some of them are pretty boring and I usually skip those myself.

[DarthCaine]

Let's see now, Eden Prime, Citadel, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos. Is that it since Therum was just a recruitment mission.



In ME2 we have: Prologue (Normandy+Awakening), Freedom's Progress, Citadel: The Council, Horizon, Collector's Ship, Reaper IFF, Suicide Mission. And like it or not, the recruitment missions WERE the plot.

[khevan]

DarthCaine wrote...

*quotesnippage*

 And like it or not, the recruitment missions WERE the plot.

Aaaaand that's the problem.  The recruitment and loyalty missions were well done in my opinion.  But they had nothing to do, really, with stopping the Reapers, which, like it or not, is supposed to be the overall plot of the Mass Effect Trilogy, which I now dub the MET. 

Picking up a crew is all well and good, and ME1 did this as well, but the crew was gathered within the first couple of hours of the game, and then you got on with the main plot, figuring out what the Reapers are, what their plan is, finding the Conduit, and stopping Saren from bringing about the squid-apocalypse.  ME2, recruiting your crew and dealing with their issues is almost the entire game!

I enjoyed the recruitment missions, don't get me wrong.  I just wish the effort had gone into creating a main story with more meat to it, more Reaper-filled, doom and gloom, they're gonna kill us kind of goodness.  And ME2 just...didn't have it.

[Nightwriter]

DarthCaine wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

But that isn't true. You can't put plot in a beaker and measure it.

Yet, you persist that ME2 has much less plot

But - but it does!

Plot isn't just raw content, it's how much the plot is felt throughout the whole story. It's about how it ties into everything else. It's about how the characters react to it, it's about how the protagonist feels about it, it's about how much of your thought it occupies as you play through the whole game.

[Julie the bogan]

Thank you khevan!

i *bow* to your greatness, somebody else gets it!

[cachx]

DarthCaine wrote...

Let's see now, Eden Prime, Citadel, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos. Is that it since Therum was just a recruitment mission.

In ME2 we have: Prologue (Normandy+Awakening), Freedom's Progress, Citadel: The Council, Horizon, Collector's Ship, Reaper IFF, Suicide Mission. And like it or not, the recruitment missions WERE the plot.

Well said, also you could toss Mordin's recruitment in there, because Mordin is intrumental to make Horizon "work".

[khevan]

Julie Shepard wrote...

Thank you khevan!
i *bow* to your greatness, somebody else gets it!

*doffs his hat*  Thank you for the kind comments.  I certainly do try.

[DarthCaine]

Nightwriter wrote...

Plot isn't just raw content, it's how much the plot is felt throughout the whole story. It's about how it ties into everything else. It's about how the characters react to it, it's about how the protagonist feels about it, it's about how much of your thought it occupies as you play through the whole game.

I think you just think this simply because you prefered ME1, so it's just subjective.

As for the protagonist, I greatly disagree there. Shepard's personality was greatly improved in ME2. In ME1 he was an emotionless character that barely spoke. He had little to no personality in ME1.

In ME2 by speaking more often, he gained much more personality. He even showed emotion is some scenes unlike ME1. The epic speeches, the badass lines and much more are why Shepard's character is much better in ME2. ME2's plot was centered mostly on Shepard and how great a leader he is and his morality (like Mordin's loyalty quest for example). In ME1 he was just another grunt sent after Saren.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Nightwriter]

I am not wearing rose-colored glasses. I am not. NOT, I say.

And you are so wrong about Shepard. I mean, ME1 had the locker scene. The LOCKER SCENE, man. Now that really makes you feel for your Shepard, you actually see Shepard crying a little in the beginning.

In ME2:

Shepard dies. Doesn't react.
Shepard's brought back by a terrorist organization. Doesn't react.
Shepard's turned on by Shepard's former allies. Doesn't react.
Shepard SHOULD be emotionally jostled by the whole thing. Doesn't react.

Shepard is basically a trigger-pulling machine there to fix other trigger-pulling machines. I felt so disconnected. So disconnected.

[smudboy]

I hear people here are talking about ME2's plot.

I find this topic strangely compelling.



Please. Continue.

[mopotter]

bjdbwea wrote...

iakus wrote...

I'd take all the cinematic advances, all the updated graphics, sound, and gameplay that went into ME 2 and give it back in exchange for a truly worthy Bioware story.  In fact, I'd downgrade to Alpha Protocol level of gameplay and graphics.  I'll take omnigelling hundred of suits of armors if the squad would just interact with each other.  I'll take cut and paste terrain if we got clear advancement of plot.  I'll take incremental skillups if it meant character development for the squad during the main story.

This.

me too.

[DarthCaine]

The locker scene was the only scene in ME1 where he showed emotion



What I was referring to was mostly the loyalty missions. Like Miranda's and Garrus' LM emotional dialogue, or just how much badass he was in Grunt's or Mordin's loyalty missions. By speaking more often it gave much more character to him

[Nightwriter]

Well, it's like this: ME1's plot is objectively better. I say this subjectively.

[DarthCaine]

smudboy wrote...

I hear people here are talking about ME2's plot.
I find this topic strangely compelling.

Please. Continue.

I expect your laughing much like most of the forums laughs at your idiotic videos

[Nightwriter]

DarthCaine wrote...

The locker scene was the only scene in ME1 where he showed emotion

What I was referring to was mostly the loyalty missions. Like Miranda's and Garrus' LM emotional dialogue, or just how much badass he was in Grunt's or Mordin's loyalty missions. By speaking more often it gave much more character to him

But it has no outside significance. Whatever Shepard does in loyalty missions remains in the insular bubble of that loyalty mission - just like that character's character development.

In ME1 we see Shepard reacting to the actual story, we see Shepard struggling.

[DarthCaine]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, it's like this: ME1's plot is objectively better. I say this subjectively.

And I agree, my point was the quanitity of the plot.

Though, like I said, the main plot plot is the ONLY thing better in ME1 than in ME2 (there's a small review on page 4 if your intersted on my complete thoughts of ME2)

[DarthCaine]

Nightwriter wrote...

But it has no outside significance. Whatever Shepard does in loyalty missions remains in the insular bubble of that loyalty mission - just like that character's character development.

In ME1 we see Shepard reacting to the actual story, we see Shepard struggling.

Exactly, it's character development, it doesn't need to have anything to do with the plot

[Julie the bogan]

Nightwriter wrote...

I am not wearing rose-colored glasses. I am not. NOT, I say.

And you are so wrong about Shepard. I mean, ME1 had the locker scene. The LOCKER SCENE, man. Now that really makes you feel for your Shepard, you actually see Shepard crying a little in the beginning.

In ME2:

Shepard dies. Doesn't react.
Shepard's brought back by a terrorist organization. Doesn't react.
Shepard's turned on by Shepard's former allies. Doesn't react.
Shepard SHOULD be emotionally jostled by the whole thing. Doesn't react.

Shepard is basically a trigger-pulling machine there to fix other trigger-pulling machines. I felt so disconnected. So disconnected.

I was having an "argument' with my girlfriend in the car while we were driving into the city this morning about the fact that Shepard doesn’t show much emotion at all.

She thought that it was fine, because Shepard is a "badass solider" and also plays renegade
While I want more emotion out of Shepard and always play paragon, I do have a bit of renegade but not much

Do you guys think that people who prefer different alignments actually like the "brick" Shepard?

[AmstradHero]

DarthCaine wrote...

 And like it or not, the recruitment missions WERE the plot.

khevan wrote...
Aaaaand that's the problem.  The
recruitment and loyalty missions were well done in my opinion.  But they
had nothing to do, really, with stopping the Reapers, which, like it or
not, is supposed to be the overall plot of the Mass Effect Trilogy

Nightwriter wrote...
Plot isn't just raw content, it's how much the plot is felt throughout the whole story. It's about how it ties into everything else. It's about how the characters react to it, it's about how the protagonist feels about it, it's about how much of your thought it occupies as you play through the whole game.

A plot is the events that occur within the story, it is what happens. Constrast this with narrative, which is the means by which the story is told, characterisation and the means the media is used to tell that story.

In my opinion, ME1 has a better plot, but ME2 has a better narrative.  Some people still consider BG2 the best RPG ever because they love its plot, overlooking its many weaknesses because of it. ME1 does some things better than ME2, but ME2 also does some things a lot better than ME1.

Gameplay mechanics, NPC characterisation, visual presentation, audio atmosphere via sound and music, level design... I'd consider these aspects far improved in ME2.  They're polished and technically improved and make the game better. The let down of ME2 is the lack of a core plot running through events. I was just as excited by the ending of both games; even though ME1's ending was more epic, the improved narrative of ME2 meant that it was just as gripping for me.

But note how I prefaced this: "In my opinion".  Ultimately that's what this comes down to, and some people aren't going to change their opinion because "it's the vibe". I'm quietly confident that ME3 will not only feature the excellent narrative form and skills showcased in ME2, but also a grandiose plot that will complete the trilogy with an emphatic climax.

[smudboy]

DarthCaine wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I hear people here are talking about ME2's plot.
I find this topic strangely compelling.

Please. Continue.

I expect your laughing much like most of the forums laughs at your idiotic videos

I did make one "idiotic" video.  But my videos are highly analytical.  Although I do try to be funny.  I'd imagine you'd find that to be the idiotic part.