815 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

AmstradHero wrote...
Books and movies aren't constrained by the need to create narrative based entirely around the plot, and some of the best films of all time are excellent because of their characterisation.

I'd be willing to bet those "best films of all time" still have a decent plot. They may be character focused, but the plot helps evolve the characters. The problem with ME2 is that the characters and the plot are treated as separate entities. The plot has no affect on the characterisation of the npc's , and the npc's have no relevance to the plot.

[raist747]

Sometimes I think I'm the only person that enjoyed the BladeRunnerisque music of ME1.



Yeah, the ME1 side missions were bunker in mountains clones of each other, but they sure felt much more epic in terms of scale. It truly felt like it was a backwater world on the edge of the traverse.

[smudboy]

raist747 wrote...

Sometimes I think I'm the only person that enjoyed the BladeRunnerisque music of ME1.

I'm so with you there.  Hell I get goosebumps watching Stargate Universe and hearing those synth strings whenever things get tense.

Ah, the good ol days.<3

Yeah, the ME1 side missions were bunker in mountains clones of each other, but they sure felt much more epic in terms of scale. It truly felt like it was a backwater world on the edge of the traverse.

I think ME1 was the concept of exploration and definition of the universe and its' threat.  Whereas ME2 was a cluster f*ck of ideas that didn't really have a reason to exist aside from "now I will help you on your mission, whatever that is."

[Frybread76]

DarthCaine wrote...

Let's see now, Eden Prime, Citadel, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos. Is that it since Therum was just a recruitment mission.

In ME2 we have: Prologue (Normandy+Awakening), Freedom's Progress, Citadel: The Council, Horizon, Collector's Ship, Reaper IFF, Suicide Mission. And like it or not, the recruitment missions WERE the plot.

But the recruitment and loyalty missions in ME2 had nothing to do with the main Collector/Reaper plot, excpet for maybe Mordin's and Tali's
 
So you did not prove that the ratio of main mission plots vs. side missions is greater is ME2 than in ME1.  And you also left out all of the subquests on Feros and Noveria in your list.

[Slayer299]

Epic777 wrote...
I disagree is
doesn't progress the story, as it answers the big question of why the
reapers reap the galaxy every 50,000 years which is the most
important question of me1.

It does? It tells *why* the Reapers return every 50,000? Cause I'd like to hear it, seriously, I just finished a playthrough the day before and I don't ever remember on any playthrough finding that out.

[Christmas Ape]

Frybread76 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
Let's see now, Eden Prime, Citadel, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos. Is that it since Therum was just a recruitment mission.
In ME2 we have: Prologue (Normandy+Awakening), Freedom's Progress, Citadel: The Council, Horizon, Collector's Ship, Reaper IFF, Suicide Mission. And like it or not, the recruitment missions WERE the plot.

But the recruitment and loyalty missions in ME2 had nothing to do with the main Collector/Reaper plot, excpet for maybe Mordin's and Tali's.
So you did not prove that the ratio of main mission plots vs. side missions is greater is ME2 than in ME1.  And you also left out all of the subquests on Feros and Noveria in your list.

"The central unifying thread of ME2 doesn't count as related to the main plot - but you missed all the irrelevant crap on two of the plot worlds in ME1!"
This is a bit, right? You're doing farce?
If you can tell me how getting a monitoring virus into the Binary Helix database has something to do with finding out what Saren's up to, I'll point out how you're stretching like taffy to try and make a weak point.

[Xeranx]

AmstradHero wrote...

smudboy wrote...
When the narrative doesn't focus on a plot, we have problems.  Or streams-of-consciousness.  Same thing really.

 Countless critically acclaimed and classic pieces of literature disagree with you. Sorry.

Can people who make claims like this please list at least one source.  I asked the same of Killjoy and he said nothing.  Each request was just that, a request.

If there are stories that don't involve story structure as we know it now I would like to read those stories if for nothing else than to broaden my view beyond contemporary literature.  Likewise for the above.

[Christmas Ape]

Xeranx wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

smudboy wrote...
When the narrative doesn't focus on a plot, we have problems.  Or streams-of-consciousness.  Same thing really.

Countless critically acclaimed and classic pieces of literature disagree with you. Sorry.

Can people who make claims like this please list at least one source.  I asked the same of Killjoy and he said nothing.  Each request was just that, a request.
If there are stories that don't involve story structure as we know it now I would like to read those stories if for nothing else than to broaden my view beyond contemporary literature.  Likewise for the above.

No-one described them as stories, it's important to note, but "critically acclaimed and classic pieces of literature". To this, off the top of my head and without checking my bookshelves,anything with "Kerouac" on the spine would fit both criteria (though their critical reception upon publication was a bit....cooler).

[Frybread76]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
Let's see now, Eden Prime, Citadel, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos. Is that it since Therum was just a recruitment mission.
In ME2 we have: Prologue (Normandy+Awakening), Freedom's Progress, Citadel: The Council, Horizon, Collector's Ship, Reaper IFF, Suicide Mission. And like it or not, the recruitment missions WERE the plot.

But the recruitment and loyalty missions in ME2 had nothing to do with the main Collector/Reaper plot, excpet for maybe Mordin's and Tali's.
So you did not prove that the ratio of main mission plots vs. side missions is greater is ME2 than in ME1.  And you also left out all of the subquests on Feros and Noveria in your list.

"The central unifying thread of ME2 doesn't count as related to the main plot - but you missed all the irrelevant crap on two of the plot worlds in ME1!"
This is a bit, right? You're doing farce?
If you can tell me how getting a monitoring virus into the Binary Helix database has something to do with finding out what Saren's up to, I'll point out how you're stretching like taffy to try and make a weak point.

Sidequests might not have been the correct term to use.  But each of the main missions on Feros and Noveria has multiple steps to complete.  Noveria has Leave Port Hanshan --> Peak 15 --> Reactor Repair --> Contaminaton --> Rift Station --> Quarantine --> Hot Labs --> Benezia showdown.

Most of the ME1 recruitment and loyalty missions are just shooting galleries and are not connected to the main plot.

[Xeranx]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

smudboy wrote...
When the narrative doesn't focus on a plot, we have problems.  Or streams-of-consciousness.  Same thing really.

Countless critically acclaimed and classic pieces of literature disagree with you. Sorry.

Can people who make claims like this please list at least one source.  I asked the same of Killjoy and he said nothing.  Each request was just that, a request.
If there are stories that don't involve story structure as we know it now I would like to read those stories if for nothing else than to broaden my view beyond contemporary literature.  Likewise for the above.

No-one described them as stories, it's important to note, but "critically acclaimed and classic pieces of literature". To this, off the top of my head and without checking my bookshelves,anything with "Kerouac" on the spine would fit both criteria (though their critical reception upon publication was a bit....cooler).

Thanks. =)

[smudboy]

Xeranx wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

smudboy wrote...
When the narrative doesn't focus on a plot, we have problems.  Or streams-of-consciousness.  Same thing really.

 Countless critically acclaimed and classic pieces of literature disagree with you. Sorry.

Can people who make claims like this please list at least one source.  I asked the same of Killjoy and he said nothing.  Each request was just that, a request.

If there are stories that don't involve story structure as we know it now I would like to read those stories if for nothing else than to broaden my view beyond contemporary literature.  Likewise for the above.

I'd like to know, too.

I'm sure there are plenty of avant garde forms of storytelling, or creative attempts at "doing something different."  But if they don't give us a reason as to why things and people are behaving in a certain way, we're left shaking our head and trying to figure out why things are going on.

I remember one of my first classes in creative fiction, and our prof being a serious grammar ****.  Everyone was "well gee, there goes creativity" due to his rigid structure and desire for clarity.  Regardless, he also accepted prose that bent the rules, and created it's own poetic style of prose: so long as it was consistent.  So really, the rules of grammar, of language and storytelling clarity, need to constantly be present.

Look at a story which is told in a normal fashion, where a bunch of random events are strewn together, and the audience is left shaking their head as to what this group of useless threads are trying to represent.

A stream of consciousness is where the writer, supposedly in a drunken or drug haze, tells a tale in first person about what they experience.  There's no plot, aside from what they describe, and hopefully gives us some insight into how a seemingly normal event is experienced through the eyes of someone with a completely off kilter perspective.

Since my love of crime fiction, it is part of the job of the audience to figure out whodunit, essentially trying to figure out which plot is real, and thus, by whom.  Now that's the point of crime fiction.

Now ME2 is not crime fiction, or stream of consciousness, or is doing anything different in the narrative.  It has a quest-style plot, which is a very simple classic hero/villain struggle.  But ME2 is also frame story, which by itself, I'd consider avant garde due to the complexity and level of content.  The frame (the main plot) still has to connect everything together.  It fails hard on almost every account.

[Dasim4]

What I didn't like about ME2 is the lack of armors and different weapons. I also didn't care for the hokey, giant robot, ending. The story, overall was decent, but it didn't have the same epic feel as the first one. Maybe due to the whole "we beat a giant robot" mission. That's a big sticking point for me because it was pretty stupid to be honest. Even as a Reaper ship I would have to laugh if I saw that thing coming through space. "I'll be back" spoken in best Arnold accent comes to mind. And considering everything I did to get to that base it seemed a bit anti-climatic to me. We had already done the exact same fight during another mission. It felt like they got lazy at the end and just rehashed some material right down to the floating platform fight. But when I saw that robot I was like, Serously?!? That's the best they can come up with. Humans are building it so it has to look like a Terminator endo-skeleton. I guess a space squid built Sovreign then. Yea that makes sense.



I enjoyed ME2, right up to the end. The action was better, the characters and acting were good, Some of the side missions were goofy. I can't imagine a someone trying to save all life in the Galaxy taking the time to return somebody's lost trinket but I guess they had to do something to help us level up. It still seems dumb though. But the first game had that to so.... RPG element I guess.



I also still didn't like the planetary exploration at all. ME1's was intolerably bad but this isn't much better. More upgrades to the planetary scanner along the way would have went a long way here. Possibly upgrade the size and range until you got to where you could scan half a planet in one go. There was just nothing good about this part of the game other than gathering resources for the upgrades but surely there could be a more interesting way to accomplish this.



I was also disappointed in the size and scope of planets when you did land on them. I liked some of the big open world fights in ME1. IT gave me the feeling I was actually on the surface of a distant planet. It also gave me reason to actually use my sniper rifle when I played that kind of character.



Maybe a mix of both games would be good. But please no more cheap giant robots taken out by machine gun bullets please. Glass tubes supporting millions of tons of weight but easily burst by a few bullets. Yea not buying that. That last fight was a terrible let down for me personally. Can't say that enough. I just finished the game for the first time last night so it's still very fresh in my head. I went to bed highly disappointed that it ended that way. I enjoyed the moral choices we had to make over the base but the path to get to that point was littered with idiocy. Just my feelings on it. Your milage may vary.



Oh yea, the damn fish die too easy. What's up with that?

[Epic777]

smudboy wrote...

raist747 wrote...

Sometimes I think I'm the only person that enjoyed the BladeRunnerisque music of ME1.

I'm so with you there.  Hell I get goosebumps watching Stargate Universe and hearing those synth strings whenever things get tense.

Ah, the good ol days.<3

Yeah, the ME1 side missions were bunker in mountains clones of each other, but they sure felt much more epic in terms of scale. It truly felt like it was a backwater world on the edge of the traverse.

I think ME1 was the concept of exploration and definition of the universe and its' threat.  Whereas ME2 was a cluster f*ck of ideas that didn't really have a reason to exist aside from "now I will help you on your mission, whatever that is."

I would disagree with you here, exploration and side quests in me1 were the weakest, Any immersion was lost to the player because near everything was done in the same manner. Go to points A, B and C go to the same building as your previous side quests and do combat in the same combat environment. It was like playing oblivion and hearing about mudcrabs for the Xth time, any immersion would be lost. 

[smudboy]

Epic777 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

raist747 wrote...

Sometimes I think I'm the only person that enjoyed the BladeRunnerisque music of ME1.

I'm so with you there.  Hell I get goosebumps watching Stargate Universe and hearing those synth strings whenever things get tense.

Ah, the good ol days.<3

Yeah, the ME1 side missions were bunker in mountains clones of each other, but they sure felt much more epic in terms of scale. It truly felt like it was a backwater world on the edge of the traverse.

I think ME1 was the concept of exploration and definition of the universe and its' threat.  Whereas ME2 was a cluster f*ck of ideas that didn't really have a reason to exist aside from "now I will help you on your mission, whatever that is."

I would disagree with you here, exploration and side quests in me1 were the weakest, Any immersion was lost to the player because near everything was done in the same manner. Go to points A, B and C go to the same building as your previous side quests and do combat in the same combat environment. It was like playing oblivion and hearing about mudcrabs for the Xth time, any immersion would be lost. 

Exactly what are you disagreeing on?  ME1 introduced the universe and gave us a sense of scale.  If you didn't like the exploration, well okay.  But to argue nearly everything was done in the same manner, is like arguing ME2 is boring and repetitive because the game is a series of shooting galleries.

It is the concept I'm referring to.  We are introduced and must explore this alien universe, and we do that by walking around, talking to people, getting in a dune buggy, flying around in our spaceship.  The narrative for side missions gave us Lance Henriksen.  Occasionally we'd discover a prothean relic or dig site and a bunch of dead things: nothing great, but we discovered the universe was a big and scary place.  It was like taking a page out of Star Trek in a video game platform.

ME2 on the other hand was focused, or at least, it gave the impression it should have been.  It made even more visually appealing side stories, unique and specialized, but they didn't mean anything; there was no sense of immediacy, or pacing.  (Even Starcraft 2 did this better with its choice based missions and conversations before and after missions, and that wasn't planned within the scope of a 3 game series.)  ME2 should've been "go go go!" and then "go go go" x2.  It was a hired hit, and we didn't know what we were hitting, how, or what our protagonists motives were aside from "If what you say is true, if the Reapers are behind this...I'd consider helping you."

[Pacifien]

Closing this thread because it has remarkable similarity to this thread, and further discussion can continue there.