203 réponses à ce sujet

[lastpatriot]

Hello everyone!

 
First, thanks for all the links to the insanity guides!  For the last two days I have been reading over and washing the guide videos for the Vanguard class though I really seam to struggle getting the concept down.  It
looks like it’s a blast to play but I think I’m missing something as I don’t tend to live all that long.  It’s frustrating
as I just completed a run on my Sentinel and it didn’t seam all that difficult.  With the Vanguard, do you
pretty much have to know all the pulls/span points before you can do well with the class?  It appears to me that there must be some sort of major learning curve that I just don’t appear to grasp or the class really isn’t designed for someone who’s still fairly new to the game.
 

To be honest though, I have always been the player that tends to lean towards the Infiltrator-type classes and only recently tried the Sentinel for something new.  I love the more aggressive side of the Vanguard but I pretty much suck so far.

 
Any suggestions?

Modifié par lastpatriot, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:22 .

[sinosleep]

Try to charge at guys towards the back of rooms so that you can flank while your squad draws some enemy attention, and try to charge at guys that are near cover so that if you mess up and the **** hits the fan you're only a few steps and maybe a vault away from cover.

[lazuli]

lastpatriot wrote...
Any suggestions?

Just one.  Pause.

Pausing when you're coming out of a Charge lets you line up a headshot, find nearby cover, spot approaching enemies, and assign companions to stagger or disable foes that are dangerously close.  When you get the hang of the Vanguard, the pausing is no longer needed.  But it's a good way to learn.

Modifié par lazuli, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Elyvern]

I found the mini-map (shift-leftclick) to be invaluable when gauging the number of enemies around and deciding if it's safe to charge. It gets much easier when you know what numbers and the kinds of troops (heavies, krogans, vanguard shotgunners) to expect. The radar map helps with the former at least if you haven't played the game several times already.

[expanding panic]

In the beginning Vangaurd can be difficult but once you get Charge up and you Vangaurd passive ability ( I chose heavy charge and champion. The reason for this is heavy charge will increase your shield by 100% and champion will reduce your re charge time more then destoryer) That way you can really charge in anywhere and charge out after about 6 seconds so its hard for you to die.



Anyway I don't like pull personally because pull in my opinion only has a benefit when there is no armor or shield up. I max out the passive ability Charge, shockwave and Reave (the optional power)

shockwave will go through any object and even if sheilds or armor is up the enemy will stumble which will allow you to get in a few good shots. When I charge in I do so with the shotgun and when the enemies shield is half way down or below I charge in and then start blasting if I cant kill them with the shotgun I start punching then I go for cover if I have to if i have life ill shoot someone else.



And reave will allow you to reagin health while draining someone elses. Then the remaining points I put on fire ammo. Hope this helps.



Last thing... Everyone has a different fighting style you have to find out what works for you what i told you is what works for me.

[Jubal Harshaw]

learn the angles. IMO charge is best used as a mobility ability and as such you need to learn to charge to the lone enemy that is at an angle to his buds.



also always leave the heaviest enemy unit for last.

[thatdude90210]

Sounds like you are still early in the game so your upgrades and points are low. Might be better to start off by using charge just to finish fights. Like when there's only one or two enemies left. Once you get more comfortable with it, pick your spots with enemies at the back, out by the peripheral, near cover, etc. Later in the game, you'll probably charge every chance you get.

[The Spamming Troll]

alot of helpful advice but the easiest way to not die is to take cover. hiding behind walls is the most effective way of not getting hit. second thing you gotta do is use your abilities. you should always die while on cooldown. with the vanguard tho the thing with charge is that you should only charge if you know cover is near. the very moment you come out of the charge you should be looking for cover while laying waste to batarian faces.



id say play the infiltrator. slo mo snipeing makes the game play slower and cloak is great for getting out of danger, or shooting that danger in the back. as much as i love biotics, i have to admit the infiltrator with stasis is probably the best class in the game.

[ChaoticBroth]

Know your abilities. I cannot emphasize that enough. I'm gonna go through a quick run-through of what you can do with your abilities.

Charge: This serves as a great mobility tool, and more importantly, it recharges your shields. People cover this enough.
Pull: While somewhat situational, Pull can prove to be useful. If you're stuck in a situation where charging will only cause you to die, then a properly arced Pull disables 1 enemy - often enough to charge in on any others to take them out.
Shockwave - This is more useful if you've got groups of enemies, or if you have a choke point. Not a very wise use of a power, in my opinion, but you can still work with it. I've used it to stage two-front assaults before. Tricky, but useful.
Your Ammo powers: Squad Cryo is very useful, especially if you roll with a powerful party (Zaeed/Miranda or Miranda/Grunt or whatever). Pop that, and switch to your other Ammo power almost instantly (be it Warp Ammo or Incendiary or whatever). That freezing effect has saved my behind more times than I can count.

By the way, Shotguns have more than one pellet, so you're really dealing less damage with your shotgun blasts if you aim for the head (since you have a statistically higher chance to miss). With the Claymore, this is especially important. You can be brave and bring that fast-firing rifle to the front lines, but only if you're bored and/or know what you're doing.

A dude earlier emphasized pausing. It's a great way to learn. After a while, lining your shots comes intuitively, and you'll only use pause to quickly assign a teammate to use a power. But, until you get to the point of such skill, you'll want to use it.

Finally, don't think of each death as "Ugh, I died, now I have to do it again argh." The mentality you need is the "So I failed because of X. Maybe if I tried Y approach..." From what I learned as playing a Vanguard and observing other friends try Insanity Vanguards, it's got its own learning curve. The Vanguard focuses on front-line combat and requires a proper on-the-spot evaluation of the tactical situation in order to play with skill. It takes time to understand the little tricks that go behind it. Be patient. In time, you'll be able to rush that Geth Colossus on Insanity in record time (well, compared to the other classes).

I haven't played in a long time, but I didn't notice any gameplay difference with that 1.04 patch or whatever it was. If I made mistakes in this post, people can feel free to correct me.

Modifié par ChaoticBroth, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:25 .

[ashwind]

I personally feel that playing a vanguard on insanity mode does require knowledge of enemy location and the map layout. It is also MUCH more difficult (beginning-mid) if you import a level 30 character - because you do not have all the upgrades yet - that really hurts.



My insanity run - Getting to Mordin's Clinic - I cant remember how many times I die because I didnt see the stupid Pyro around the corner >.<" and how many more times I die because I didnt know there were more Pyros on the way.

[Kaylord]

When playing insanity, knowing the game already is a big help. Most people play by memorizing every difficult part and their canon solution to it.

As to playing a Vanguard on insanity without knowing each map by heart, there is one general hint:



don´t use charge



Seriously; a Vanguard plays very well in a soldier like fashion, too. Using a squadmate with warp can make you really good use of warp explosions. Having reave sort of sums up a vanguards lethality even without using charge.

When you got the feeling of doing this, then start using charge occasionally, against approaching enemies, or against a lone enemy in a position which is far away from any spawning point or other enemies.

[sinosleep]

If you're not using charge you may as well just play another class.  The vanguard is one of the only classes in the game that doesn't really have an alternate strategy with which to dispatch enemies that doesn't involve gimping yourself. When people say that a vanguard without charge is a gimped adept it's not an insult, it's cause it is. An adept has shockwave, pull, and do more damage and have quicker CD than vanguards do on their powers as well. Without charge vanguards are no more survivable than them either. So basically you're a gimped adept with incendiary or cryo ammo, and cryo ammo can actually often interfere with the use of biotics. If you're going strictly for weapon damage without charge you lose your free melee range damage boost and shield recharge, and soldiers have access to more weapons and better powers with which to boost them.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:56 .

[Kronner]

Charge all the time. Do not be afraid. Charge basically makes you invincible as long as you keep Charging. It will take you some time to get used to, but it is worth it. Do not just foolishly Charge, use it to gain advantage and disrupt enemy ranks. Max. passive and charge first.

If you are new to the game and want Vanguard-like experience (basically a walking, more durable Vanguard with benefits), try Assault Sentinel with a shotgun (Assault Armor, Guardian - then get shotgun on the Collector Ship and you are free to run around shooting everyone in the face). It is very similar, and much more forgiving. After you complete the game, you will know much more about it and then Vanguard will feel easier for sure.

Modifié par Kronner, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:20 .

[Kaylord]

I was not referring how a vanguard should be played. I was helping to get a grip on the Vanguard from my own experience. In the beginning, you are all fiddle and sticks and want to use charge all the time, regardless of tactical need, because you don´t have a feeling for it yet.
So my tip is, don´t use charge in the beginning and only use it in clear win situations. Over time you will get a feeling for it and you can use charge more and more liberally.
You can play a very good Vanguard without going into the middle of it, without having to know every map by heart, without risking red veins (which I always try to avoid from a roleplay perspective). This involves using charge as a bonus in specific situations. I learned this only by restraining myself from using charge and to really wait for the right situations.
BTW, the platforms in the suicide run, you are reduced to being a soldier-like vanguard, since charge almost never really works there. Reave and Pull+squadmatewarp were more than sufficient for an effective and fast play.
So, don´t reduce the Vanguard to charge, either.

Modifié par Kaylord, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:34 .

[sinosleep]

I'm in the process of editing a vid I made of Mordin's recruitment that I'm actually going to do a voice over for that hopefully will help low level vanguards.

[edit here] IMO, you don't get better at using charge by not using it. I say use it early, use it often, and if you die learn from it.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:36 .

[lastpatriot]

This has been a great "wake-up" call for me as I have gotten so used to my old class, I never really thought about what the position was on the battlefield. Just for the heck of it, I changed over to a Soldier last night on the mission to get Mordin and as typical, my squad died in the first two seconds of the final battle area. As such, I spent the rest of the time running around and taking one inch at a time until the end. It was really hard but I saw a few points where charge would have really saved my butt.



I suppose I really need to learn the game a good bit more before I try a class that is well beyond my normal style. ME:2 is still my favorite game so I'm sure I'll have many times through it before ME:3 comes out.



Again, thanks for the help folks!



Oh, I forgot, is barrier a good option to pick instead of reave as a tool for learning the class?

[Kronner]

Kaylord wrote...
BTW, the platforms in the suicide run, you are reduced to being a soldier-like vanguard, since charge almost never really works there. Reave and Pull+squadmatewarp were more than sufficient for an effective and fast play.

Not true at all. Charge sometimes does not work if you Charge from cover, but if you leave cover and THEN Charge, it works just fine.

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote...

Not true at all. Charge sometimes does not work if you Charge from cover, but if you leave cover and THEN Charge, it works just fine.

Exactly, Kaylord do yourself a favor and youtube vanguard suicide run or vanguard collector platforms and you'll see for yourself you can charge just fine and dandy on the platforms. Kronner, RamsenC, SabreSanDiego, myself and many others all have charge dominated videos of every platform section in the game.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Kaylord]

Well, I think learning by dying is not a very favorable way, roleplay-wise. If you try to learn without much dying, then go my proposed route.

Again, I am not saying to play a vanguard without charge, I am just saying, don´t use it in the beginning. Maybe I am just a coward, but it worked fine for me.

For me, the platform-charges were completely random, going out of cover did not seem to help, it just made it work sometimes, as opposed to, not at all. So I kept to playing a soldier vanguard in this situation. I have one playthrough on insanity with a vanguard, so don´t count me as a pro. This thread was not posted by a pro, anyway, I believe.

Another thing I learned from my experience as Vanguard: If you do use charge for changes of position on the battlefield, my squad seemed to die a lot less. I figured that the reason behind this are the rockets; the AI does not react well to them. The constant movement makes the squad move, the enemies concentrate on running after you, too, and so the team lives longer and is able to dish out more damage.

Modifié par Kaylord, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:03 .

[ashwind]

Situation when Charge fails me:
1 ) Enemy is moving on the left/right but my cover position is slightly towards the center.

2 ) Collector base - final map, Charge dont actually advance because of the moving platforms (sometimes) I suspect this has something to do with timing and path calculation. I do not think the problem is cover.

3 ) If you get hit when preparing to charge with something that has a "stun" effect.

4 ) My back is blocked (very odd this one... sometimes I can, sometimes I cannot)

If you cannot remember the positions of enemies and map layouts - press Shift immediately after a Charge to get a better view of enemies and cover spots around you.

p/s: Sometimes I know that I should not Charge - no cover spot and more than one heavy enemy but I simply cannot resists  Charge is addictive.

Modifié par ashwind, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Kaylord wrote...

Well, I think learning by dying is not a very favorable way, roleplay-wise. If you try to learn without much dying, then go my proposed route.

You learn through failure, at least that's how I did it.

"Know yourself and know your enemy, and in a hundred battles you will never be defeated" - Sun Tzu; The Art of War

You'll have to try and die playing Vanguard and you'll soon find out you can do crazy things and live > you've mastered the first of Sun Tzu's lessons.

"Know the ground, know the weather; and your victory will be complete" - Sun Tzu; The Art of War

Once you know where to find cover and how many and which enemies to expect you're done > you're now a fully fledged Vanguard

[Kaylord]

Even though it was only one playthrough witha vanguard on insanity, I had a kind of a "zero death punishment" rule imposed on me: If I died on a mission, I kept replaying the mission until I had no death three times in a row. With this background, you simply don´t do the "fast road down to hell" charge a lot. But I can tell, it is much more satisfying if you do those rare charges sucessfully then.

[Bozorgmehr]

I wouldn't recommend a 'zero death' run not knowing how to play a Vanguard, a hard way to learn indeed. It's kinda cool once you've got the hang of it though; and playing through missions 3 times in a row will definitely help improving your skills and it keeps the adrenaline going.

[Kaylord]

Yeah, most of the time my mouse was hovering over the chargebutton I was, like, "NO. don´t, you might die fast and ugly". Adrenaline indeed, even without charging!

But when some melee-oriented enemy was pushing towards my cover, it was pure satisfaction to shove a charge&shotgun into his face.

Or those rare moments when a lone enemy enabled a comlete relocation on the battlefield and the enemy was suddenly caught in crossfire between me and my squad.

Other than that, charge was only reckless and, 1/3 of the time, deadly for myself.

[tonnactus]

lastpatriot wrote...
 With the Vanguard, do you
pretty much have to know all the pulls/span points before you can do well with the class? 

Yes,that it is.Dumb anyway,that the number of enemies is never fixxed and some could come right behind you when you are near a door. You really have to remember where they are placed and where they came out.