203 réponses à ce sujet

[ScroguBlitzen]

Learning vanguard means dying. Alot. You just cannot get good without it. There is no other way. Period. If you don't die then you don't know how far you can push things and if you don't know that then you will never be great.



Also. You don't need to know maps to kick ass with vanguard. I rocked lotsb with my level 30 without dying once and charging tons. The final fight on the ship while liara unlocks it was awesome... Bouncing all over the map shotgunning faces.

[lastpatriot]

I just finished my first map with my Vanguard on hardcore setting and I died about 3 times in the process. On each death, I noticed that it was either because I didn't check the map prior to charging or I didn't charge a target with decent cover close to it. After being able to survive for a few battles, the class started to become fun and really exciting to play.



I'm going to stick with the hardcore setting for a bit as I don't think I'm ready for insanity on this character as I still have lots to learn. For my extra skill, I chose reave and found that I really like how it works on groups. It's the first time I've ever really used this skill much and so far, it has some nice tricks to it.



On a side note, I was playing around as a Soldier on insanity last night with stasis as my extra and I think I broke my thumb trying to change weapons so much.

[TheBestClass]

sinosleep wrote...

To hell with reave, take slam as a pull replacement until you get pull field.

But then you can't get Squad Cryo. I still take Slam over Reave though. I don't think the aoe of Pull Field is worth sacrificing Squad Cryo for. Slam sets up Warp explosions just fine.

[sinosleep]

I like cryo ammo but it all really depends on what you're going to have your squadmates doing. I'm not big on defense stripping when I play vanguards since I want whoever I'm charging to have some defenses left more often than not so instead of going flying when I hit them they stay in melee range. I found cryo to be more effective on my infiltrator where I WAS defense stripping tons of targets which lead to a lot of frozen bad guys. On my vanguards it tends to be more of a happy accident than a deliberate action on my part. As such I can deal with forgoing cryo ammo to take pull field since I'm using my squad primarily for warp explosions instead of defense stripping.



Although really slam plus cryo ammo seems to be the best of both worlds since the CD is so short it almost doesn't matter that it's not aoe. I'm kind of conflicted about the whole issue really, which is why I'm going to have this vanguard stick with slam for the whole playthrough since I've never done that before.



Also, I uploaded another tutorial. low level vanguard tutorial vol. 2 . I take on Jack's recruitment with my lvl 9 vanguard.

[philiposophy]

I've just started a vanguard on insanity. It's technically my second attempt at the class, but honestly it's more like my first, because I was too hesitant to charge very often the first time, and I basically ended up playing like a gimped adept.

I've only done Mordin's mission so far, and I've died quite a few times. But I'm enjoying it a lot. Clearing the enemies after charging right into them is so satisfying. I'm still not as aggressive as people like Kronner and sinosleep, but they're way more accurate shooters than I am! I'm trying to be as aggressive as possible, and I do think I've been improving. It also feels real tactical at points, like flanking the enemies and then ramming into them from behind. Great stuff.

Anyway my future plans are to take the Claymore on the collector ship. I'm slightly nervous about the ammo allowing for only one shot between reloads, and I don't know if I'm skilled enough to pull the reload trick off consistently. At the moment I'm using the Eviscerator.

I'm aiming for this build:

Inferno Ammo
Squad Cryo Ammo
Heavy Charge
Champion
Slam*


*I've taken Slam as my bonus power and plan to max it. I don't typically use bonus powers, but this is basically Pull, but without needing to waste points in Shockwave. Anyway I don't know which evolution of it to take at rank 4. What do people recommend?

[godlike13]

Vanguard is tough in the begging, but as u get better and ur upgrades get better it gets much easier. The first half my Vanguard died a lot, the second half my enemies just died a lot .

My advise is take stasis as ur bonus power early on, leaving it at just 1 point. At 1 point stasis can do a lot for u in dealing with the harder guys like Heavy Mechs. Then invest in charge first to Heavy, then the passive to Champion, then Inferno ammo. One u get those maxed save ur points till u get 9, the change ur bonus power to area Reave or some other area defense stripper. If u have the ezo u can continuously respec ur bonus power to fit the mission. Reave when u got a lot of armor on ur enemies (Collector missions), and Energy Drain for when u got a lot of shields on ur enemies (Geth and Blue Sun Missions). After that u can spend where u want, a little shockwave and pull, or Cryo. I went with squad Cryo ammo to make them a lot more effective. Shockwave just isn't going to do much for u on the higher difficulties, and pull is awesome at pull field, but not worth the additional points u have to spend in shockwave.

Also don't forget to use ur squad, especially thier defense strippers.

Modifié par godlike13, 06 octobre 2010 - 09:10 .

[godlike13]

philiposophy wrote...

*I've taken Slam as my bonus power and plan to max it. I don't typically use bonus powers, but this is basically Pull, but without needing to waste points in Shockwave. Anyway I don't know which evolution of it to take at rank 4. What do people recommend?

On insanity Slam is really only good for warp bombs, so u don't even need to go to rank 4 IMO.

[Kronner]

philiposophy wrote...

I've just started a vanguard on insanity. It's technically my second attempt at the class, but honestly it's more like my first, because I was too hesitant to charge very often the first time, and I basically ended up playing like a gimped adept.

I've only done Mordin's mission so far, and I've died quite a few times. But I'm enjoying it a lot. Clearing the enemies after charging right into them is so satisfying. I'm still not as aggressive as people like Kronner and sinosleep, but they're way more accurate shooters than I am! I'm trying to be as aggressive as possible, and I do think I've been improving. It also feels real tactical at points, like flanking the enemies and then ramming into them from behind. Great stuff.

Anyway my future plans are to take the Claymore on the collector ship. I'm slightly nervous about the ammo allowing for only one shot between reloads, and I don't know if I'm skilled enough to pull the reload trick off consistently. At the moment I'm using the Eviscerator.

I'm aiming for this build:

Inferno Ammo
Squad Cryo Ammo
Heavy Charge
Champion
Slam*


*I've taken Slam as my bonus power and plan to max it. I don't typically use bonus powers, but this is basically Pull, but without needing to waste points in Shockwave. Anyway I don't know which evolution of it to take at rank 4. What do people recommend?

Slam is excellent power with only 3s cooldown, without any upgrades. After the upgrades it should be about 2s only. I'd go for Heavy Slam because it has longer lift duration (1.5s vs. 1.3 for Crippling Slam). I like it because it does not interfere with Charge at all.

[philiposophy]

I think I'm probably going to be using Slam for warp explosions as much as anything else, so the extra lift duration would be best I guess. I'm still tempted by the incapacity provided by Crippling though. It's going to be the last power I max, so I've got plenty of time to think about it, lol.



Anyway, I did Zaeed's loyalty mission and had a blast. Only died once in the whole thing! It was near the start when I charged a mook... who was right next to a pyro. Doh! The best bit was that huge room at the end with the YMIR at the back. What fun!

[ryoldschool]

I was inspired to start another vanguard run ( insanity, xbox ) after looking at sino's video on omega. I've played thru vanguard on hardcore to end, and insanity past the collector ship, but I always played "safe" to avoid getting killed a lot. So I tried to play like he does in the vid.



I could not even charge the two guys at the start of the Mordin mission. Sino pops both guys with no problems. When I hit the first guy, before I can get a shot off, the other guy is blasting me. Died a bunch of times. Then in the next part where he charges the 3 guys behind cover - absolute sucicide. I don't know why it seems impossible - those should be easy to duplicate, but that explains why I did not enjoy vanguard.



I always have trouble with melee anyway ( wish they could let us use that button for something else ). I wonder if some of you guys that have xbox and pc versions - do you see a big difference playing vanguard between these two versions? I have looked at changing the camera speed to help with melee, but then aiming goes to hell. I have noticed that on the pc videos the turn speed is ridiculous on Shepard, maybe its easier to adjust aiming with mouse? Anyway what a letdown.

[Kronner]

Mouse + keyboard is obviously better for any shooter game. Devs said they compensated for it so that enemies in PC version are tougher.

[lazuli]

ryoldschool wrote...

I was inspired to start another vanguard run ( insanity, xbox ) after looking at sino's video on omega. I've played thru vanguard on hardcore to end, and insanity past the collector ship, but I always played "safe" to avoid getting killed a lot. So I tried to play like he does in the vid.

I could not even charge the two guys at the start of the Mordin mission. Sino pops both guys with no problems. When I hit the first guy, before I can get a shot off, the other guy is blasting me. Died a bunch of times. Then in the next part where he charges the 3 guys behind cover - absolute sucicide. I don't know why it seems impossible - those should be easy to duplicate, but that explains why I did not enjoy vanguard.

I always have trouble with melee anyway ( wish they could let us use that button for something else ). I wonder if some of you guys that have xbox and pc versions - do you see a big difference playing vanguard between these two versions? I have looked at changing the camera speed to help with melee, but then aiming goes to hell. I have noticed that on the pc videos the turn speed is ridiculous on Shepard, maybe its easier to adjust aiming with mouse? Anyway what a letdown.

At first, I thought that the stuff in the high level Vanguard videos couldn't be reproduced on the xbox (mainly the Collector Platforms).  But it turns out that it just takes practice.  Follow my suggestion of pausing as you come out of the Charge so you can plan your next move.  Don't expect to kill three Vorcha per Charge, at least not right away.  And use your squadmates to defend you.  A stagger, Warp explosion, or other crowd control effect can cover you while you get someplace safe.

Also, don't use Charge a lot until it's evolved to Heavy Charge.  The time dilation and extra shields really help if you're new to it.

[ryoldschool]

Lazuli - Heavy charge, yeah, I was wondering about that because my 58 level import char does not have Heavy charge yet ( need two more points ). Maybe that is part of it.

[Kaylord]

Great video! I wouldn´t recommend some of those charges in the beginning though. For example, charging the three blue suns behind the cover in the beginning is already very daring for my average skills. I tried at first to go to the right side and charge the spawning enemies coming around the corner first, before I took down the rest. That´s a bit easier I think.

Those charges where you go up to an isolated vorcha, away from spawnpoints, they are perfect situations, executed perfectly. No red veins necessary.

[lazuli]

ryoldschool wrote...

Lazuli - Heavy charge, yeah, I was wondering about that because my 58 level import char does not have Heavy charge yet ( need two more points ). Maybe that is part of it.

And just keep in mind that the beginning is probably going to be the hardest part of the game.  You don't have a super-powered squad yet.  You don't have access to a wide variety of weapons or upgrades.  I think that the following is an acceptable leveling path for Vanguards on Insanity:

1) Maximize Heavy Charge
2) Maximize Assault Mastery (Champion)
3) Maximize Inferno Ammo
4) Maximize Squad Cryo Ammo

Lately, I've been using Jacob to cover my ammo power needs with Squad Incendiary Ammo.  This opens up the possibility of mastering Squad Cryo Ammo before fully acquiring Inferno Ammo (swap 3 and 4, accounting for pre-reqs).

Of course you'll want to shift things around if you plan on using Pull Field or your bonus power (earlier on in the game).  But I believe that most popular Vanguard builds focus on mastering Charge first and then the passive.

[godlike13]

ryoldschool wrote...

I was inspired to start another vanguard run ( insanity, xbox ) after looking at sino's video on omega. I've played thru vanguard on hardcore to end, and insanity past the collector ship, but I always played "safe" to avoid getting killed a lot. So I tried to play like he does in the vid.

I could not even charge the two guys at the start of the Mordin mission. Sino pops both guys with no problems. When I hit the first guy, before I can get a shot off, the other guy is blasting me. Died a bunch of times. Then in the next part where he charges the 3 guys behind cover - absolute sucicide. I don't know why it seems impossible - those should be easy to duplicate, but that explains why I did not enjoy vanguard.

I always have trouble with melee anyway ( wish they could let us use that button for something else ). I wonder if some of you guys that have xbox and pc versions - do you see a big difference playing vanguard between these two versions? I have looked at changing the camera speed to help with melee, but then aiming goes to hell. I have noticed that on the pc videos the turn speed is ridiculous on Shepard, maybe its easier to adjust aiming with mouse? Anyway what a letdown.

I play on X-Box and i have no trouble kicking ass with my Vanguard. Like i said earlier, the beginning can be tough, but as u get upgrades and level up it gets considerably easier. If ur having trouble aiming, then make sure u get Heavy Charge asap, the slow down time will let u accurately line up ur shots.

[ashwind]

ryoldschool wrote...

Lazuli - Heavy charge, yeah, I was wondering about that because my 58 level import char does not have Heavy charge yet ( need two more points ). Maybe that is part of it.

You can also hot-key Miranda and Jacob's power and use it together with your Charge - Heavy Charge is a bonus but tis doable without. 

edit: you can hotkey squad power on xbox right?

I could not even charge the two guys at the start of the Mordin mission. Sino pops both guys with no problems. When I hit the first guy, before I can get a shot off, the other guy is blasting me. Died a bunch of times. Then in the next part where he charges the 3 guys behind cover - absolute sucicide. I don't know why it seems impossible - those should be easy to duplicate, but that explains why I did not enjoy vanguard.

Try sending Jocob and Miranda into the room to draw their attention, once they fire at your squad, charge the guy closest to the right door then flank them.

Modifié par ashwind, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:01 .

[lazuli]

ashwind wrote...
edit: you can hotkey squad power on xbox right?

I honestly don't know.  Sometimes it seems like you can hotkey a single power for each of them, but I think it's bound to the same button (d-pad direction) that tells them where to go.  So pausing and assigning commands is how I play.  I hope that someone with more experience hotkeying on the xbox will correct me if I'm wrong.  I play well enough without it, but I'd like to hear from those who actually use it.

[Simbacca]

ryoldschool wrote...

I was inspired to start another vanguard run ( insanity, xbox ) after looking at sino's video on omega. I've played thru vanguard on hardcore to end, and insanity past the collector ship, but I always played "safe" to avoid getting killed a lot. So I tried to play like he does in the vid.

I could not even charge the two guys at the start of the Mordin mission. Sino pops both guys with no problems. When I hit the first guy, before I can get a shot off, the other guy is blasting me. Died a bunch of times. Then in the next part where he charges the 3 guys behind cover - absolute sucicide. I don't know why it seems impossible - those should be easy to duplicate, but that explains why I did not enjoy vanguard.

I always have trouble with melee anyway ( wish they could let us use that button for something else ). I wonder if some of you guys that have xbox and pc versions - do you see a big difference playing vanguard between these two versions? I have looked at changing the camera speed to help with melee, but then aiming goes to hell. I have noticed that on the pc videos the turn speed is ridiculous on Shepard, maybe its easier to adjust aiming with mouse? Anyway what a letdown.

My first ever playthrough of ME2 was Vanguard on Insanity.  I watched and read everything available at the time to prepare (basically the contents of Thisisme's and Sabresandiego's guides).

You are correct.  At this point, many playthroughs later, I have mastered the gameplay of the Vanguard on the Xbox
and yet I could still never get away with charging 3, let alone 4, standard trooper mooks on insanity pre-Hard Shields upgrade.  I said it before in other threads where it's come up, but I swear it is hard on the Xbox than PC.  People will inevitably quote the dev that said enemies are tougher on PC to adjust for more precise controls, but my point was never that they had more health or damage on the console.  No, my point has always been that the AI behaves different on the console, in my personal experience.  Many times when I these PC vids, I see the enemy AI get all sorts of stupid whenever Shepard gets in close quarters.  It's like they freak out and try to run away to get back to mid-range.  That almost never happens in my experience on the Xbox; I get up close, they don't get confused, they try to shoot me dead all the faster.  Everytime.

Even post-Hard Shields upgrade, I could never charge into 4 Vorcha with a Krogan approaching and expect to survive more than a 2 seconds (like at 4:07 in his first vanguard training vid, though it may be because his one Charge stunned 3 Vorcha).  As soon as I land, the gun fire from all but the one I hit with Charge would be on me.  The AI doesn't ever hesitate or panic that I'm suddenly close, they just keep shooting.

Still as m14567 did, I too encourage you to keep at it.  Even with my perception and experience with the Vanguard on the Xbox, it has remained my favorite and most fun class in the game.  I still Charge damn near constantly, I just have to be more selective with my targets and my squadmate distractions.  Once mastered, it is still a ridiculous amount of fun.

Modifié par Simbacca, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:25 .

[godlike13]

ashwind wrote...

edit: you can hotkey squad power on xbox right?

Yes. Right and Left on the D-pad. Have the enemy targeted then, click right or left to set off their respective power.

Modifié par godlike13, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:30 .

[Kronner]

Simbacca wrote...

You are correct.  At this point, many playthroughs later, I have mastered the gameplay of the Vanguard on the Xbox
and yet I could still never get away with charging 3, let alone 4, standard trooper mooks on insanity pre-Hard Shields upgrade.  I said it before in other threads where it's come up, but I swear it is hard on the Xbox than PC.  People will inevitably quote the dev that said enemies are tougher on PC to adjust for more precise controls, but my point was never that they had more health or damage on the console.  No, my point has always been that the AI behaves different on the console, in my personal experience.  Many times when I these PC vids, I see the enemy AI get all sorts of stupid whenever Shepard gets in close quarters.  It's like they freak out and try to run away to get back to mid-range.  That almost never happens in my experience on the Xbox; I get up close, they don't get confused, they try to shoot me dead all the faster.  Everytime.

Any links? I have yet to see the behaviour you are describing (PC version).

[OniGanon]

I can't imagine they went to great lengths to make the games different for the two platforms, dude.

I mean, the ME2PC port is so shockingly lazy and backwards I half expect ME3PC to come without mouse support and require a 360 controller. No mouse scrolling through menus? Limited to 50 saves? Unnecessary 30 second bik movie loading screens? NO DOUBLE CLICK?!

Modifié par OniGanon, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .

[ashwind]

Simbacca wrote...
My first ever playthrough of ME2 was Vanguard on Insanity.  I watched and read everything available at the time to prepare (basically the contents of Thisisme's and Sabresandiego's guides).

You are correct.  At this point, many playthroughs later, I have mastered the gameplay of the Vanguard on the Xbox
and yet I could still never get away with charging 3, let alone 4, standard trooper mooks on insanity pre-Hard Shields upgrade.  I said it before in other threads where it's come up, but I swear it is hard on the Xbox than PC.  People will inevitably quote the dev that said enemies are tougher on PC to adjust for more precise controls, but my point was never that they had more health or damage on the console.  No, my point has always been that the AI behaves different on the console, in my personal experience.  Many times when I these PC vids, I see the enemy AI get all sorts of stupid whenever Shepard gets in close quarters.  It's like they freak out and try to run away to get back to mid-range.  That almost never happens in my experience on the Xbox; I get up close, they don't get confused, they try to shoot me dead all the faster.  Everytime.

Even post-Hard Shields upgrade, I could never charge into 4 Vorcha with a Krogan approaching and expect to survive more than a 2 seconds (like at 4:07 in his first vanguard training vid, though it may be because his one Charge stunned 3 Vorcha).  As soon as I land, the gun fire from all but the one I hit with Charge would be on me.  The AI doesn't ever hesitate or panic that I'm suddenly close, they just keep shooting.

Still as m14567 did, I too encourage you to keep at it.  Even with my perception and experience with the Vanguard on the Xbox, it has remained my favorite and most fun class in the game.  I still Charge damn near constantly, I just have to be more selective with my targets and my squadmate distractions.  Once mastered, it is still a ridiculous amount of fun.

You do notice that the poster uses warp explosion right after charges sometimes right? Which basically pushes the enemies away and stop them from immediately attacking Shepard. Maybe that is why they seem to be at mid-range?

Modifié par ashwind, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Simbacca]

OniGanon wrote...

I can't imagine they went to great lengths to make the games different for the two platforms, dude.

I mean, the ME2PC port is so shockingly lazy and backwards I half expect ME3PC to come without mouse support and require a 360 controller. No mouse scrolling through menus? Limited to 50 saves? Unnecessary 30 second bik movie loading screens? NO DOUBLE CLICK?!

I should have clarified, I'm not suggested the AI was written differently for the different versions.  I'm simply saying that has been my personal experience on the Xbox, consistently, and it contrasts that of many of the videos I've seen posted.  If there is some tiny key difference my gameplay that I am simply overlooking, well I hope to find that out as well.

ashwind wrote...

You do notice that the poster uses warp explosion right after charges sometimes right? Which basically pushes the enemies away and stop them from immediately attacking Shepard. Maybe that is why they seem to be at mid-range?

Yes I did notice that sometimes, and though I make use of Warpbombs myself, I definitely haven't done so as quickly and as fluid as sinosleep displayed.  That is something I'd have to work on.  (I usually bring Miranda and Thane to use their Unstable Warps with my Slam, guess I should try trading one of them for a Puller)

But my statement about the AI is not isolated to this video, it is across most of the videos I've seen over the months.  My statement about enemy AI seemingly getting befuddled when Shepard is in close range on the PC isn't even my own; I've heard numerous PC vets say they take advantage of just that in the many "help me get through insanity" posts I've seen in my months here.  They often say be more aggressive, just when you think you die running at the enemy, do it anyway if close since the AI seemingly doesn't know what to do.  All I've said is that in my personal experience, the AI doesn't get confused consistently enough when in close range for me to rely on that tactic, and the only difference I can see from me and those that have always said and shown to do that is the platform.  Still, again, it is just my personal experience.

And I also said it still worth learning to play the Vanguard, on Insanity, aggressively on any platform as it is still, IMHO, the most fun playstyle in the game to master.

Kronner wrote...

Any links? I have yet to see the behaviour you are describing (PC version).

Though I do remember it happening in one particular video I watched, the statement you highlighted was not meant to be taken as literally as it seems.  I didn't mean that foes seem to turn tail and run from you guys, I meant that for a second, the AI gets confused as to whether it wants to shoot or get new/better cover.  I meant the very "being aggressive up close confuses enemy AI" tactic that many here have said in threads seeking insanity help, as I described in the middle section of this post.

Modifié par Simbacca, 06 octobre 2010 - 05:55 .