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[KnightofPhoenix]

It was Howe who did all the torturing, including the kidnap of Anora. We do not know how much Loghain was implemented in this.

The elves are second class citizens of Ferelden. They don't really matter much. If Duncan was told that selling elves into slavery would produce enough wealth to defeat the darkspawn, he wouldn't even think twice about it. that's what makes Loghain the perfect grey warden.



Alistair on the otherhand is willing to sacrifice Ferelden, just to kill one man.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Are you kidding me? You seriously believe the elves are not his people? 
Yeah, they're second-class citizens. See the word "citizens" there? I do. They are his people. They are Fereldans. He sold them into slavery. It would have been no different if he had sold humans. No different at all.

They are not as important as humans. That's not only his opinion. Everyone, in Ferelden, agrees on it. If sacrificing the unliked minority will protect the majority, then so be it. And most elves are already servants and slaves anyhow.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Loghain doesn't deny it in the Landsmeet, and Loghain hired Jowan to poison the Arl.

Your comments about the elves I find kind of hilarious.
"Everyone in Ferelden" agrees? THE ELVES ARE FERELDANS . XD
That is such a bigoted comment.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Loghain doesn't deny it in the Landsmeet, and Loghain hired Jowan to poison the Arl.

Your comments about the elves I find kind of hilarious.

Loghain does say that whatever Howe does in his own house is none of his doing. So he does deny it.
And yes, he tried to poison the Arl. That's because the Arl is conencted to the royal family, thus a potential opponent. It's not unsounds. But it was miscalculated.

And that's not my opinion on the elves. That's how humans, the majority, in Ferelden think about them. And I actually find it hard to sympathise with them to be honest. I agree with Sten, they are useless. The only elves worthy of respect are the dales. Those willing to stand up for who and what they are. The commoners are to be despised for their weakness.

[PaladinZero]

Well...my first play through (human noble) I didn't get that choice. Since we were dueling to decide the fate of the new ruler, it seemed very prudent to let Alistair fight for himself and earn the kingdom. So, Alistair defeated Loghain and slew him in front of Anora (she got gooey bits on her I think), The only thing I was truly angry about with Alistair is that I convinced Anora and him to get married. It would work out fine I said, she rules and you are a figurehead to lead the people. Perfect. Alistair doesn't have to worry about the kingdom's affairs, Anora gets to keep her power, and the nobles who want to see a blood descendant rule are now loyal. Then, Alistair blows it by refusing on the spot and causing a huge fight...I wanted to punch him right there and then for lying to me.



I wasn't even sure about Anora ruling since she wasn't any better. When I rescued her, she sicked the guards on me and escaped. I didn't want to kill perfectly useful and skilled guards that could be killing darkspawn, but noooo.... All she needed to do was say, "Hey the Grey Warden is right. I was imprisoned and now I am free." The lieutenant seemed like she was loyal, and while not turning on Loghain she might have let us go without a fight. Instead a skilled warrior and many soldiers died.



Loghain's redemption never seemed important. He left his king to die, failed to defend Lothering from the darkspawn, allowed Howe to have his way with my family, he is quick to brand everyone traitors, he branded the Grey Wardens outlaws and put a price on their heads (the only group capable of stopping the Blight), and he was wholly unlikable. There were times when I thought that perhaps Howe was responsible for some, but he seemed too paranoid to entrust the safety of Ferelden to. Anyone who abandons their king to the darkspawn horde should have been killed, which is what happened.



The end of the story for me was that I allowed Alistair to kill the Archdemon, since I knew that what he was really good for was fighting. Alistair turned out to be a good leader, though his reign was short. Anora made a stature to her father, which if I hadn't been wandering the world with Lelianna, I would have torn down and burnt to ash.

[Maria Caliban]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

That's why you don't let Alistair become king. I agree his behavior over Loghain is a little childish, but he's still the better choice if you ask me. He lets his emotions control his behavior in one scene under a lot of duress. I don't blame him for his choice, really.

But he didn't let it bother him in only one scene. He left and never returned.

Here's the thing: I didn't pick between Loghian and Alistair. I decided to let Loghian live and become a Grey Warden, and *Alistair* chooses to leave the Grey Wardens. *Alistair* chooses to stop fighting the Blight. At no point did my character tell him to go, he did that on his own.

I think it's a bad choice, but my PC did not force him to make it. Before I even knew about how Grey Wardens defeat the archdemon, my PC planned to have Loghian die in battle. That way Duncan murderer dies, but Alistair isn't seen as killing his own father in law and Anora isn't seen as the daughter of a traitor.

I had 100 approval with Alistair. He saw time after time that I was just and thought things through. He never disagreed with one of my actions. Despite all of this, he assumes the worst, yells at me in front of the Landsmeet, gives me no chance to explain, and looses all faith in my leadership and decisions. He then tries to be king just so he can kill a man. If you ask him to take power for the sake of duty and honor, he drags his feet and complains, but he’s more than willing to grab it in order to have someone executed. There’s something very wrong there.

I like Alistiar. I do! I seriously considered romancing him instead of Leliana, and I adore Leliana. He’s charming, sweet, and sensitive. I think he and Anora would make a great team, and hopefully produce many children who have both charisma and, um, brains.

But, my PC does not respond well to bullying. Or temper tantrums. Or ultimatums from someone who isn’t even willing to talk to her in private as to her motivations and plans.

I played a human noble who tried to be a good person while defeating the Blight and helping Ferelden. She was hurting as much as Alistair, if not far more, but if she thought that letting Howe live could help the country or defeat the darkspawn, she would not kill him. She’s not going to compromise her duty because someone wants vengeance, even if that person is a good friend.

It’s not an *easy* decision, but it was still the right one.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:17 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain does say that whatever Howe does in his own house is none of his doing. So he does deny it.
And yes, he tried to poison the Arl. That's because the Arl is conencted to the royal family, thus a potential opponent. It's not unsounds. But it was miscalculated.

And that's not my opinion on the elves. That's how humans, the majority, in Ferelden think about them. And I actually find it hard to sympathise with them to be honest. I agree with Sten, they are useless. The only elves worthy of respect are the dales. Those willing to stand up for who and what they are. The commoners are to be despised for their weakness.

Because the alienage elves who rioted because of Vaughan's doings were useless and unable to stand up for themselves and who they are?  Erm, no, they fought tooth and nail.

You can't lock your brother in the closet for three years and then say it's his fault that he's dirty and un-showered. The elves were oppressed. It's their fault for the condition of the alienages and the culture of the city elves. The elves are weak because the humans enslaved them, took their homes, and treated them like garbage.

As I said, hilarious. You're here trying to justify slavery. XD
Even if it was "acceptable" (which it most certainly is not), it is ILLEGAL in Ferelden.  Loghain doesn't give a rat's ass about Ferelden. He cares only about stopping Orlais regardless of who it affects or how it affects them. He's obviously not trying to save Ferelden, since he's selling Fereldans into slavery, killing the nobility, and breaking its laws.

If you want to support a tyrant, hey, Bioware gave you that choice. Enjoy. :happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Because the alienage elves who rioted because of Vaughan's doings were useless and unable to stand up for themselves and who they are?  Erm, no, they fought tooth and nail.

You can't lock your brother in the closet for three years and then say it's his fault that he's dirty and un-showered. The elves were oppressed. It's their fault for the condition of the alienages and the culture of the city elves. The elves are weak because the humans enslaved them, took their homes, and treated them like garbage.

As I said, hilarious. You're here trying to justify slavery. XD
Even if it was "acceptable" (which it most certainly is not), it is ILLEGAL in Ferelden.  Loghain doesn't give a rat's ass about Ferelden. He cares only about stopping Orlais regardless of who it affects or how it affects them. He's obviously not trying to save Ferelden, since he's selling Fereldans into slavery, killing the nobility, and breaking its laws.

If you want to support a tyrant, hey, Bioware gave you that choice. Enjoy. :happy:

You say that the elves were weak because they were enslaved. I say the elves were enslaved because they were weak. Depends on perspective.
That's why I repsect the dales, even though they are nothing compared to the Kingdom of Ferelden or the Dwarves in terms of actual power. But at least they stand up for themselves and that's worthy of respect.

During times of war, martial law can be declared and some laws can be ignored, to protect the land. Just because he enslaved some elves doesn't mean he doesn't like Ferelden. He loves his homeland. If there is one to summarise Loghain, it's his love for his homeland, sometimes an excessive love. And it's that love which leads him to hate Orlais. 

And no I don't support him as a ruler, since I ended up removing him from power and taking his place. But yes, I am glad Bioware allowed us to let that great man redeem himself.

[Maria Caliban]

I dont' think you can support Loghian as ruler, but I assume Mystrianna refered to the dwarves and the advil, in which case you can certainly create a tyrant.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

His love for his homeland apparently only extends to the actual land itself and not its people. A kingdom is made of people. If you're willing to kill those people, enslave them, and torture them, then you're not protecting them, then you don't love them.



Loghain hates Orlais much more than he "loves" Ferelden. His "love" of Ferelden seems to me to be only a love for himself and what he wants, not the society he is a part of. It's not love that makes him hate Orlais; it's the fate of his mother so many years ago in a completely separate conflict.



You can call him a great man if you wish; that doesn't change the fact that he's a slaver, a murderer, and a douche. If he was such a "great man", then I posit that he wouldn't have to redeem himself in the first place.

[Wintermist]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Loghain.

Alistiar is sweet, but he is not good or just. When Ferelden needs him most, he abandons his duty out of petty jealousy. A man like that should not be king any more than Loghain should.

Loghain, on the other hand, is terribly cruel and deluded, but he can serve his country one last time by ending the Blight.

Now now, that's just from that game. If you handle matter differently it's not the same outcome, so it's hard to judge it really. It's like judgeing someone for what he did in a parallell universe

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

His love for his homeland apparently only extends to the actual land itself and not its people. A kingdom is made of people. If you're willing to kill those people, enslave them, and torture them, then you're not protecting them, then you don't love them.

Loghain hates Orlais much more than he "loves" Ferelden. His "love" of Ferelden seems to me to be only a love for himself and what he wants, not the society he is a part of. It's not love that makes him hate Orlais; it's the fate of his mother so many years ago in a completely separate conflict.

You can call him a great man if you wish; that doesn't change the fact that he's a slaver, a murderer, and a douche. If he was such a "great man", then I posit that he wouldn't have to redeem himself in the first place.

You say that as if Loghain undertook a genocide on his people and killed half of them. He is no Stalin. He was enslaving the unwantables to save the majority, in his own mind. Loghain was never ambitious, even when he could have taken the throne very easily. He was a hero that everyone admired. He could have easily overthrown Cailain at the very beginning. He didn't. Instead he attempted to educate him, but to no avail. Cailan is as idiotic as his half brother Alistair. He could have thrown his daughter away and made himself King, but he never wanted that.

Aah, I think every single human has something to redeem himself for. No man is too great to not commit mistakes. The difference between a mistake and an error is that you admit that you are mistaken, and try to correct that. When you live in error, you do not want to see that, thus not rectify it. Loghain clearly knew he was mistaken and was willing to redeem himself. that's good enough for me.

[Maria Caliban]

Wintermist wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Loghain.

Alistiar is sweet, but he is not good or just. When Ferelden needs him most, he abandons his duty out of petty jealousy. A man like that should not be king any more than Loghain should.

Loghain, on the other hand, is terribly cruel and deluded, but he can serve his country one last time by ending the Blight.

Now now, that's just from that game. If you handle matter differently it's not the same outcome, so it's hard to judge it really. It's like judgeing someone for what he did in a parallell universe

I'm not sure what you mean.

If you spare Loghian, Alistair calls off the marriage to Anora and attempts to become the king so he can have Loghian executed. If you don’t allow it, then he’ll abandon the Wardens and leave Ferelden.

Now, in another play-though, you might kill Loghian outright and Alistair married Anora and they rule together, but that doesn’t mean Alistair’s nature changes.

There are only a handful of times in the game where you can alter a companion's nature so that the 'different universes' arguement applies.

[Maria Caliban]

There's actually no sign that Cailan is idiotic. Idealistic and wanting glory, yes, but if Loghian hadn't pulled his troops, the plan at Ostigar would have likely succeeded. Moreover, Cailan took the Blight seriously, while Loghian was obsessed with Orlias.

[Wintermist]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm not sure what you mean.

If you spare Loghian, Alistair calls off the marriage to Anora and attempts to become the king so he can have Loghian executed. If you don’t allow it, then he’ll abandon the Wardens and leave Ferelden.

Now, in another play-though, you might kill Loghian outright and Alistair married Anora and they rule together, but that doesn’t mean Alistair’s nature changes.

There are only a handful of times in the game where you can alter a companion's nature so that the 'different universes' arguement applies.

Yes, that's the thing really. I guess it's philosophy when it comes down to it. As you say his nature might not have changed, but we would not have known about it really. I can understand him walking off, but as I saw it in game, it would have been temporary, to cool off.

Now when I handle matters differently I would never have know the whole deal at all. And depending on how you're judging it the result would be different. Do I judge from what I know he would do if I as a player did things differently, or do I judge him from what he does according to how I played that current game.

That's what I mean.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Loghain was willing to "redeem" himself only after he lost... He fought that duel because he was so arrogant that he wouldn't admit his mistake even after every Arl but one sided against him at the Landsmeet. He was thoroughly beaten, so yeah, what else could he have done but try to "redeem himself". At that point the damage was too great.

And think about what he did. He killed the kingdom's king. He started a civil war and tried to force everyone who disagreed with him into line by torturing their children and poisoning them. He showed absolutely zero love for the people of Ferelden. He never "wanted power" because he always had it. Maric and Cailan both were strong-armed by Loghain. It's said in the game itself that the battle of Ostagar was pretty much the first time Loghain ever did not get his way. And what did Loghain do? He committed regicide so he could have his own way, then tried to force the people into what he saw was the proper line.
He's not noble. He's not good. He's not respectable. He's garbage. He deserves his death a thousand times over. And he shall have it before he tries to sell more of his "beloved Fereldans" into slavery, before he can poison them or kill them for disagreeing with him.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...

There's actually no sign that Cailan is idiotic. Idealistic and wanting glory, yes, but if Loghian hadn't pulled his troops, the plan at Ostigar would have likely succeeded. Moreover, Cailan took the Blight seriously, while Loghian was obsessed with Orlias.

Well it was Loghain who made the plan, not Cailan. Even Ducan said that "We rely on Loghain to make the difference" (aka Cailan is too childish to make a difference or to lead them against the blight).

Cailan took the Blight "seriously" only because he was obessed with glory. I mean the very fact of him saying "Aww, this is not a blight. I am so dissapointed", irritates to no limit. Whiuch I am sure irritated Loghain as well. That's why it would be easier dismissing it as a blight if you have a so called King actually wanting it to happen.

We have to understand Loghain's position. There was little sign that there was a blight. Only the Grey wARdens knew for sure. If Cailan had called Orlesian troops into Ferelden, and if it turns out there was no blight, how do you make the Orlesians go?Loghain's assessemnt is politically sound. No State in our world allows foreigns troops in without being 100% sure they need them and 100% sure they can mantain their soverignity.

[Wintermist]

The thing about Loghain is that he must have planned it with Howe for a longer while, if you consider the events of the human noble start. Surely things like this must have been planned longer since than the information about the upcoming Darnspawn attack.

[Maria Caliban]

Okay, but going by that philosophy, we can't discuss anything in the game. What if your character died during the origin? Then things might have been completely different. All the companions are influenced by the PC in some way, therefore, we can't talk about their personality at all?



I can't say that Zevran can be more than a man-ho because my PC might never have been born and if that was the case he might remain a man-ho for the rest of his life. Leliana loves the Chantry, but what if I never pick her up? She sees the country destroyed and feel helpless, she decides that her dream was the Maker showing her that he cares nothing about the world, so she leaves for Orlias and spents her life as a hardened assasin.



Of course, we can only talk about what we experience in the game. Alistiar does leave the Grey Wardens if you don't give him his vengence. Period. That is not good or just. He's nice and sweet, but when it comes to it, not good.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We have to understand Loghain's position. There was little sign that there was a blight. Only the Grey wARdens knew for sure. If Cailan had called Orlesian troops into Ferelden, and if it turns out there was no blight, how do you make the Orlesians go?Loghain's assessemnt is politically sound. No State in our world allows foreigns troops in without being 100% sure they need them and 100% sure they can mantain their soverignity.

Politically sound? Except for the part where he completely ignores the Grey Warden's expert testimony. You know, the only people who would actually know it was a Blight? The only people who said it was a Blight?

[Wintermist]

I think he's rash and acts in the spur of the moment, but I still would consider Alistair a good person. I never had it happen to me though, since I reloaded. Does he come back or will he remain gone forever? What does the final end words say?

[Maria Caliban]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well it was Loghain who made the plan, not Cailan.

And it was Cailan who decided a plan had to be made.

Cailan took the Blight "seriously" only because he was obessed with glory.

Yet, he took the Blight seriously. Alexander the Great was also hungry for glory, but no one called him an idiot.

Cailan was young. Once he experienced the horrors of war and saw his men torn apparart by the darkspawn, he'd be far less callow. However, he's still be the one who protected his country from the real danger, not paranoid fantasies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Loghain was willing to "redeem" himself only after he lost... He fought that duel because he was so arrogant that he wouldn't admit his mistake even after every Arl but one sided against him at the Landsmeet. He was thoroughly beaten, so yeah, what else could he have done but try to "redeem himself". At that point the damage was too great.

And think about what he did. He killed the kingdom's king. He started a civil war and tried to force everyone who disagreed with him into line by torturing their children and poisoning them. He showed absolutely zero love for the people of Ferelden. He never "wanted power" because he always had it. Maric and Cailan both were strong-armed by Loghain. It's said in the game itself that the battle of Ostagar was pretty much the first time Loghain ever did not get his way. And what did Loghain do? He committed regicide so he could have his own way, then tried to force the people into what he saw was the proper line.
He's not noble. He's not good. He's not respectable. He's garbage. He deserves to his death a thousand times over. And he shall have it before he tries to sell more of his "beloved Fereldans" into slavery, before he can poison them or kill them for disagreeing with him.

You are operating with the assumption that Loghain doesn't like the people of Ferelden, simply because he mistreats its tiny minorty that no human sees as equal anyways.
But it seems pretty obvious to me that he does love his homeland and his people, excluding the alienage elves, who are disposable, as per Grey Warden logic.

But this can continue forever, we are going in circles. So I think it would be wise to not let it get out of hand and stop there, shall we?
Suffice to say that this argument shows that Dragon Age is a great game for enticing good discussion.

[Odd Bet]

I had originally planned on having Anora and Alistair marry and killing Loghain, in revenge for all the pain he had caused. When the plan was proposed to make him a Gray Warden instead, it was a really tough choice for me.



I wanted to punish Loghain, but having another Warden would be useful (which I thought even before knowing why Wardens were necessary), and I figured he'd be at least good for a kamikaze assault on the Archdemon. I hesitated, but originally made to spare him. Alistair's reaction made me change my mind, though. His anger pushed from begrudgingly showing mercy to begrudgingly executing him.



And honestly, just to see him try to take Anora's hand at the end made it all worth it.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

I don't think you can condemn Alistair for his one brief outburst at the Landsmeet. Yes, it was irresponsible. Yes, it was not good. Yes, it was really, really childish and selfish.



But Duncan and the Grey Wardens were his life. Loghain tried to kill or did kill the only people he ever really knew and loved. Loghain threw the entire kingdom into chaos and did so much evil. So Alistair demands justice. If that justice is refused, I can't condemn him for wanting to walk away from the people who made the decision, especially after all Alistair went through with the PC. He was under duress, so I can't say it's part of his character to not be good.



Loghain, however, consistently and lucidly was evil.