121 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

I guess my post wasn't that interesting.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Politically sound? Except for the part where he completely ignores the Grey Warden's expert testimony. You know, the only people who would actually know it was a Blight? The only people who said it was a Blight?

The Grey Wardens interfered in Ferelden politics in the past and were cast out for a reason. They were just recently accepted back. Of course they are not going to trust them fully. The Grey wArden expert testemony is something only the Grey wArdens understand. They don't have actual proof.

@ Maria Caliban As for Loghain having paranoid fantasies. That's what Loghain thinks about Calain. That he is having fanstasies about a blight. Taht's why he dismissed them. Cailan was right in so far as there was a blight. But he was right in the wrong way. He didn't actually know there was a blight. He merely hoped for a blight.

Alexander didn't go out to conquer on fanstasies. He knew his enemies and he knew his capabilities. He didn't actually wish for something bad to happen just to be like a story character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Wintermist]

The natural assumption is this, I think:



If Loghain simply wanted the safety of his country he would have stood by the King and defeated the Darkspawn no matter what his personal beliefs of the King would be.



Since he did not do that, but pulled his army back to his seat of power risking the whole of Ferelden in the process he must have some other plan all along, and I would have assumed it to be taking power for himself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wintermist wrote...

The natural assumption is this, I think:

If Loghain simply wanted the safety of his country he would have stood by the King and defeated the Darkspawn no matter what his personal beliefs of the King would be.

Since he did not do that, but pulled his army back to his seat of power risking the whole of Ferelden in the process he must have some other plan all along, and I would have assumed it to be taking power for himself.

He did that in order to avoid having Calain call for foreign troops in their lands, with no real solid proof of a blight. Accepting foreign troops in your land is a very tough decision. No State today would accept it, only if it was certainly necessary and with some guarantee that they wouldn't interfere in the State's politics.

I am not saying he did the right think politically. I am saying that his motivation is perfectly understandable and politically sound.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are operating with the assumption that Loghain doesn't like the people of Ferelden, simply because he mistreats its tiny minorty that no human sees as equal anyways.
But it seems pretty obvious to me that he does love his homeland and his people, excluding the alienage elves, who are disposable, as per Grey Warden logic.

Your argument is hyperbole... You can't say every human sees elves as not equal. That's like saying all white people In the US consider minorities to be less than equal. Not only is it completely and obviously wrong, it's just plain ridiculous.

So he loves all humans in Ferelden, but not the elves? Then he's a bigot and a racist. Wow, what a great man.
Let's erect a statue of him and thank him for selling his own citizens into slavery. Nobody liked those citizens anyway.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Your argument is hyperbole... You can't say every human sees elves as not equal. That's like saying all white people In the US consider minorities to less than equal. Not only is it completely and obviously wrong, it's just plain ridiculous.

So he loves all humans in Ferelden, but not the elves? Then he's a bigot and a racist. Wow, what a great man.
Let's erect a statue of him and thank him for selling his own citizens into slavery. Nobody liked those citizens anyway.

It is rather clear that humans in general do not like Elves. that's a major plot in the game. That elves are disliked.
And obviously it's a hyperbole. By all, I mean the vast majority.

Yes Loghain might be a racist, so are most humans around him. That doesn't change a thing really. Racism against the evles was the norm at that time. YOu can;t judge it from a universal point of view.

[Malanthor]

I see so many people finding faults with alistair. Calling him a cry-baby that complains, saying he is selfish and willing to throw all away for one man etc. Alistair is nothing of those things, if you had seen real combat and its aftereffects you would know what crying and complaining is, stress makes humans do alot of things, and alistairs "complaining" is well within what is right and proper behaviour. Also he do not "throw everything away" for the sake of vengeance. Alistair knows that the PC will keep going along with hes team and whatever other forces he has comitted at that point which in any case is an army, Alistair is 1 man. Its not like the PC and alistair both have to press a button simultaniously to win and alistair refuses and go nah ah. He walks away because he cannot countenance personally fighting alongside loghain, and he feels betrayed by the PC for allowing loghain to live and even making him a gray warder after hes HORRENDOUS betrayel.

Also bear in mind that the PC is in no way alistairs boss, if there are any senior wardens in ferelden its alistair, its just because its a game your calling all the shots, cant have a bossy npc that takes charge all the time, so its not like hes betraying anything other than the supposed mandate of the wardens, he has fought and bled for the good of the world much more than 99,9999% of the rest of the population and if he wants to say **** it due to some retard decision made by the player he is welcome too it.

In any case THE GAME itself says that if/when alistair becomes king he is a good king, so you can take your complaints and shove them up your ass, the game itself says your wrong. If your ending didnt have alistair as king its no matter, its still what would have happened if he had been made king, testamount to who he really is.

"id take loghain over alistair any day, a weak selfish guy like that shoudent be king etc etc"
Jesus ****in christ get a grip of yourself people, loghain committed grand treason, he betrayed hes sworn king and alot of other innocent people for no reason at all, not to mention all the other **** he did. Id put a bullet in hes ear easier than swatting a flie in real life. If you really think loghain can be forgiven you need to take a good hard look in the mirror and start working on a change pronto.

So many people here going oh hes weak, hes a crybaby etc. Who the **** are you to be calling anyone a crybaby?? Almost all of you would prob **** yourself the first time bullets started flying over your head or a bomb exploded close by and would prob desert at the first chanse you got. Its easy to be a tough guy sassing other from the safety of ones couch. I know its a frickin game, but here we are talking among other things abouth peoples qualities, and that transcends games or reality. If someone is a jerk in a game he would be the same in real life making the same jerky decisions. So the end is, if you truly believe that the character of loghain is better of as a king than alistair and that alistair is weak etc, (talking of their character not the ****in game) then your a worthless piece of ****

Modifié par Self Controll, 12 novembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Hmm, my response to Maria seemed to have never been posted.


Anyways:
The elves are free. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden. The elves are citizens of Ferelden. Loghain illegally sold citizens of Ferelden into slavery. There's no hyperbole there and no exaggeration either.

I can't believe you're actually trying to justify slavery...
You're saying it's okay to sell elves into slavery because they aren't as well liked, regardless of what the human law says.
Loghain's actions are those of a tyrant. Tyrants show no love of their people, only themselves. The same is true of Loghain. He believed that Orlais was a threat. When his own peers said "No!", he called them all traitors and didn't back down until he was thoroughly beaten in a duel. If Loghain ever loved anyone other than himself, it would be Anora. But he never loved anyone more than himself, especially not Ferelden or its people. He made that completely obvious.

I judge him from both a universal point of view and the in-game point of view. What he did was wrong, despicable, and not the work of a great or respectable man.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 12 novembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Anyways:
The elves are free. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden. The elves are citizens of Ferelden. Loghain illegally sold citizens of Ferelden into slavery. There's no hyperbole there and no exaggeration either.

I can't believe you're actually trying to justify slavery...
You're saying it's okay to sell elves into slavery because they aren't as well liked, regardless of what the human law says.
Loghain's actions are those of a tyrant. Tyrants show no love of their people, only themselves. The same is true of Loghain. He believed that Orlais was a threat. When his own peers said "No!", he called them all traitors and didn't back down until he was thoroughly beaten in a duel. If Loghain ever loved anyone other than himself, it would be Anora. But he never loved anyone more than himself, especially not Ferelden or its people. He made that completely obvious.

I judge him from both a universal point of view and the in-game point of view. What he did was wrong, despicable, and not the work of a great or respectable man.

Oh ho, the elves are anything but free. Free in theory. In practise, they are servants and slaves arealdy. ONly the dales are free.

LAws can be removed during times of war. He didn't sell elves for his own personal pleasure. He sold them to finance a war. Duncan and the Grey Wardens wouldn't have opposed it at all. On the contrary. I abide by Grey Warden logic. Whatever it takes.

Again, for me it's clear that Loghain loved Ferelden and its people. He didn't give a damn about the elves, but he still loves his homeland.

And I am not trying to justoify anything. There is a difference between justifying and understanding. I understand Loghain's actions. I understand the motives behind them. I understand his logic. And that's why I spare him. If he was indeed a self serving man, who was acting the way he did simply because that's how he likes it, then I would have killed him. But Loghain is not that. Redeem him and talk to him, and you will see.

 

[Wintermist]

I think it's safe to say the best words one can say in a situation like this: We can agree to disagree. Hehe.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

It's not possible to redeem Loghain, but I did talk to him after getting him in my party for the achievement. It made me hate him even more

I "understand" Loghain too. He sold his own people into slavery. What's not to understand? He has no love for the actual people in his kingdom.
He refused to obey the laws of his own peers for what he personally thought was right. What's not to understand? He has no respect for the people in his kingdom or its laws.
He killed his own king for what he personally thought was right. What's not to understand? He committed regicide and grand treason.
He poisoned, tortured, and killed those who disagreed with him. What's not to understand? He's a murderer.
He didn't back down for a second until he was completely backed into a corner and had no other options but to back down. What's not to understand? He's a coward.

See? I understand him. I just realize that these aren't the qualities of great men.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 12 novembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

lol K, we are going in circles.
As a poilitical science student, I understand Loghain very differently from how you understand him. But both points of views are valid, depending on the perspective.

Last thing I will say on the subject before I go sleepy dodo.
In game, I would have spared him, because he is too useful to kill. I am a grey warden afterall.
Out game, I would still save him, as the great man and hero deserves redepemtion.

With that said, I am off to sleep. It's been nice discussing / arguing with you. At least you had the courtesy of keeping it civil, unlike some others.

Good night everyone!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 novembre 2009 - 08:17 .

[Lavitage]

Ass cancer vs. lung cancer. No matter which you pick, the objectively correct path is to refuse Morrigan's ritual then have whichever guy you chose kill the archdemon.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

In game: I killed him hard because he's proven he's not trustworthy.



Out of game: I still kill him because he's shown himself as a selfish twit since he was introduced in The Stolen Throne, and has only gotten (amazingly) worse over the years, despite having won the battle at the River Dane.



Ciao.

[Kalfear]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

In game: I killed him hard because he's proven he's not trustworthy.

Out of game: I still kill him because he's shown himself as a selfish twit since he was introduced in The Stolen Throne, and has only gotten (amazingly) worse over the years, despite having won the battle at the River Dane.

Ciao.

LOL, I gotta say, after being on the receiving end of his daughters treachery more then a couple times.
I think shes the one that should die.
At least Logain was doing what he did outta misdirected beleif in his lands
his daughter just a power hungry shrill that lies about everything and anything to advance her position!

[Malanthor]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


-You say that the elves were weak because they were enslaved. I say the elves were enslaved because they were weak. Depends on perspective.

-I would rather have a tyrant than a whimp to be honest. Political efficiency is much more important than being "good". 

-And I actually find it hard to sympathise with them to be honest. I agree with Sten, they are useless. The only elves worthy of respect are the dales. Those willing to stand up for who and what they are. The commoners are to be despised for their weakness

-We have to understand Loghain's position. There was little sign that there was a blight. Only the Grey wARdens knew for sure. If Cailan had called Orlesian troops into Ferelden, and if it turns out there was no blight, how do you make the Orlesians go?Loghain's assessemnt is politically sound. No State in our world allows foreigns troops in without being 100% sure they need them and 100% sure they can mantain their soverignity.

-He did that in order to avoid having Calain call for foreign troops in their lands, with no real solid proof of a blight. Accepting foreign troops in your land is a very tough decision. No State today would accept it, only if it was certainly necessary and with some guarantee that they wouldn't interfere in the State's politics.

-I am not saying he did the right think politically. I am saying that his motivation is perfectly understandable and politically sound.

-And I am not trying to justoify anything. There is a difference between justifying and understanding. I understand Loghain's actions. I understand the motives behind them. I understand his logic.

-lol K, we are going in circles.
As a poilitical science student, I understand Loghain very differently from how you understand him. But both points of views are valid, depending on the perspective.

-etc

Loghain didnt have a good reason for anything he did. You say loghain betrayed the king and the army because the king sent for foreign troops, well those troops were allready marching so logains betrayal did nothing but serve as vengeance for him not getting hes will. Hes motivation are not perfectly understandably and politically sound at all. They are stupid and politically unsound.
He may not think there is a blight but the sound decision would be to take into consideration that it may actually be it and plan for it. Even with it not beeing a blight its still a threat and he increases that threat manyfold by devestating the army and killing the king causing political unrest and instability in the country. He then puts a bounty on the grey wardens, taking it further than when they were just banned from the country, an act sure to cause anger among the neighbouring countrys where the grey warden have much influence. That is just listing SOME of hes decisions.

You have the gall to call these actions perfectly understandably and politically sound? You say you understand logain, hes logic, hes decitions?
You claim to be a student of political history, you are a living proof that not everything can be learned from reading books. Saying that logain is sound is INSANE. I bet you think Hitler was a great man aswell eh? Just in line with your out of context machiavelian-inspired ideology.
Looking at what you have said in this thread i really dont know where to continue too, you have said so many stupid things its hard to know where to go.

You say you despise weakness? And what exactly are you, a young man that goes to a university studying political history? Are you not one of those weak persons?
How much action have you seen, how much death and pain have you seen unfolding around you, how dare you sprout crap like you do when you are just a pathetic leech sitting safely in your house talking big words reading your books. You can be glad we are not having this discussion in the flesh or i would show you just how weak you are.

Some may find what i say to be rude and not how one should debate. Screw that, when someone comes along with disgusting or retarded oppinions i say put them down fast, if neccesary with a punch. (reserved for the real ****s, like people defending pedofiles etc)

[deathadder99]

 Alistair leaves your party when you recruit loghain, but i think that loghain is THE best choice to recruit. This is my reasoning - Loghain becomes a grey warden, and thus can be sacrificed when you need to kill the arch demon. Even if you hate him, you can kill him in the end, and Alistair and yourself are alive and well.

[deathadder99]

Alistair leaves your party when you recruit loghain, but i think that loghain is THE best choice to recruit. This is my reasoning - Loghain becomes a grey warden, and thus can be sacrificed when you need to kill the arch demon. Even if you hate him, you can kill him in the end, and Alistair and yourself are alive and well.



Any thoughts?

[specter7237]

I would have given Logain mercy, joining the Wardens would have been as good as a death sentence, if not for Alistair throwing a fit.  Thats the only time I saw him get really pissed off, not that he's not totally wrong in that.  I had felt the importance of keeping the Therin blood line on the throne, so I had little choice but to kill Logain.  I do admire his character though, and do believe he had good intentions for what he did.  The ends simply didn't justify the means in this case.

[syllogi]

If you're a human noble, Loghain is ultimately responsible for the deaths of your family members, and even *rewarded* the guy who was directly responsible.



If you're a city elf, Loghain callously is selling your people (and your family) into slavery, and when confronted doesn't seem too sorry about it. How is he any better than the rapey Arl's son who referred to elves as animals?



If you're a mage, Loghain fostered blood mages in the Circle, which can lead to the Circle of Magi being wiped out.



If you take your position as a Grey Warden seriously, Loghain tried to exterminate ALL of you, if it hadn't been for Flemeth you'd be dead by this point.



If you care about Alistair at all, you know that family is the most important thing to him. Loghain poisoned the first father figure in his life, Arl Eamon, and then killed Duncan and the Grey Wardens, who were the only family he was liable to have ever again. Not to mention his half brother Cailan, whether he had any affection for him at all.



If you're role playing an evil character, I can understand not caring about any of the above, but I can't think of any reasons for my good character to choose Loghain over Alistair. Also, if you wanted to see Alistair stop being a pushover and make some hard choices, this would be his first as king. He's not a cold blooded killer, but he draws the line here. I agree with his choice.



For a Brighter Ferelden Future, Vote Alistair!!!

[Majspuffen]

GhoXen wrote...

Oghren beats them all.

hehehehe. QFT

Alistair may whine, but hell, can you blame him? I myself hate politics, if someone told me I had to become the prime minister just like that when there's someone else who could do it that is much more suitable for the task, I'd whine too. Also, I can understand why Alistair doesn't want to spare Loghain. I didn't necesarily want Loghain to die, but I didn't really care either, I let Alistair finish him.

I mean, slavery, poisoning Arl Eamon, flee from the battlefield and blame everything on the wardens, locking away his daughter etc... I'd never let him come with us.

Modifié par Majspuffen, 12 novembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[Ace Attorney]

@TeenZombie - I'm a Dwarf who cares a Nug's ass about Alistair, City Elves, or Blood Mages. Loghain is a genius war hero who did some wrongs. Being a grey warden is a better punishment for them than killing him and let great talents go to waste.

[GmanFresh]

allistar on the throne is best. you can control things behind the scene i think without being to in the public eye. i didnt trust anora as far as i could throw her

[KnightofPhoenix]

Self Controll wrote...
I bet you think Hitler was a great man aswell eh? Just in line with your out of context machiavelian-inspired ideology.

As a half-Jew, I am incredibly offended by that. Not only is Loghain incomparable with Hitler, as any one who actually reads history and has common sense knows. But to use the Godwin law on anything you don't like and mention Hitler as if he is a common insult is disgusting, offending and revolting. If you mention Hitler, then you should be pretty damn serious about it.

I didn't bother responding to you because you are clearly not willing to keep this civil. But now, you have gone too far.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 novembre 2009 - 03:33 .