121 réponses à ce sujet

[RazorrX]

Loghain did not love the Ferelden People. He loves the concept of the Nation of Ferelden. That is totally different.



It was not that there were no signs of a blight, there were. There were PLENTY of signs it was a blight. Even Calain comments that after each victory the next group is much larger. Loghain is self delusional at this point in his life.



The Witch told Maric that A) Loghain would betray him, each time worse than the last. and That a blight was coming but that he (Maric) would not live to see it.



Loghain can NOT accept that it is a blight. IF he does, then the Witch was telling the truth, which means Loghain is a Traitor. He can NOT accept that fact, he WILL not accept that fact. He deludes himself into believing that it is not a blight because he is completely Irrational about Orlais.



He hates the Grey Wardens because they support the Blight concept and are not native Fereldens (They come from Orlais! Spies!) Thus they have to be liars and opportunists that must be dealt with quickly and harshly in order to protect Ferelden from the Orlasian Invasion (which is not coming).



He kills Calain because he has requested Help from Orlais. A country that his father Maric signed a treaty with. An army of Grey Wardens were coming to help, Loghain had them met at the border and turned away because they were secretly an Invasion Force (They were not).



When Calain asks if they should wait for reinforcements he is told by Loghain "No. We have enough." It was Loghains plan, the whole rush in front and pull them into an ambush with the real force. The force that Loghain ALWAYS intended to withdraw. Calain and the Grey Wardens were removed in one swift move so that Loghain could defend the Nation of Ferelden from the TRUE Threat of Orlais.



He poisons the brother of the one Woman he was thought to have truely loved (Rowan). He does this because that brother could unite the Landsmeet against him and try and fight this fake blight (Which everyone else sees is a real one) and ignore the Invasion Plans of Orlais (which are not happening).



He puts Blood Mages in the tower because the Mages sided with Calain and were pro Blight, thus hoping the Chantry would Purge the mages all together as they would support those who fear a blight rather than the Orlasian Invasion.



He realizes about half way through the game that he is wrong and it was all true. Does he repent? No. He continues his goal, he sells his own people into slavery (even if they are elves and thus somewhere above dogs, they are NOT slaves. They are all paid laborers in Ferelden. They live in slums, etc. but they are not slaves. Slavery is Illegal in Ferelden) His excuse - I needed the money for the war.



In fact, the ONLY time he 'repents' is when you have your sword at his neck after giving him a beat down.



Also note that Loghain did not know about Allistar. At the end of The Calling I got the impression that Maric was starting to distance himself a bit from relying on and telling Loghain everything.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I would rather have a tyrant than a whimp to be honest. Political efficiency is much more important than being "good". Besides, the elves were already treated as second class citizens. They are not really his people. If he had done that on humans, then things would have been different.

Well, the MP in my country would be considered a wimp by most, but I'd rather have him as king than a certain tyrant.

Political ''efficiency'', huh? I'd hate to go all Godwin on you, BUT...

[MBirkhofer]

Loghain is so obsessed with the Orlisian threat, he will fail to see the Qunari invasion that is coming as soon as the Blight is over. Just like he didn't see the Blight itself as the true threat.

[Tamcia]

Screw Loghain. If by any chance in future expansion of DA, I find out that in the main story Loghain survived, I'll kill that douche bag in my first 5 mins of my game.



Alistair is far better king. He got good advisors to do the ruling. While Loghain ran when he could have prevented the blight in the beginning, so he really doesn't give a crap about Feralden, only his own power - we all know how it ended for most kings in history - off with your head.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Nice post, RazorrX. :happy:

Kalfear wrote...

LOL, I gotta say, after being on the receiving end of his daughters treachery more then a couple times.
I think shes the one that should die.
At least Logain was doing what he did outta misdirected beleif in his lands
his daughter just a power hungry shrill that lies about everything and anything to advance her position!

What are you talking about? When does she even come close to betraying you? The only time I can actually think of that resembles betrayal is when you face Cauthrien in the Howe's estate and you reveal her identity.  What she did was not betrayal there, it was self defense. You essentially told her own captors that you just rescued her. What would they have done? As far as Anora knows, they'd just lock her back up, double security, and the whole rescue operation would be thrown to the dogs.

Other than that, which is completely justified, what else did Anora do? You say "more than a couple times", so I expect at least two more specific occurrences.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I found Loghain a much more interesting character. Furthermore, if you have him in your party and talk to him he pretty much explains himself to you.

[Mutant Dwarf]

Loghain isn't like Hitler at all. No massive death camps, etc.

Loghain is like Stalin. Completely paranoid, to the point that he murders thousands of his countrymen due to his paranoia. He cares for his homeland, but he doesn't give a rat's ass about his homeland's people - and not just the elves, either. Remember that he has Humans murdered (Arl Eamon, most of the mages in the Circle, not just the Grey Wardens) or tortured. He does absolutely anything in order to gain and retain power.

Loghain is clearly a very, very evil person, though just about all of his evilnes is due to his paranoia. When you confront him at the Landsmeet, he actually thinks that your character is working for the Orlesians! He can't see any enemy besides Orlesia, his paranoia of them is so great.

Loghain has almost no redeeming qualities. He's a tactical genius, okay - but that's the only one.

Remember that Loghain formed the entire battle plan at Ostagar. He also likely led the Darkspawn into the Tower of Ishal in order to prevent the beacon from ever going up, and when it actually did against his plans he fled the field even though everything was going exactly according to his plan. Loghain carefully orchestrated the Grey Warden's death and gave free reign to the Darkspawn to enter the countryside. He never even tried to stop the Darkspawn from attacking the Bannorn.

During the entire game, Loghain did absolutely nothing to try and help Fereldan. All he did was try and prevent phantom Orlesians from stepping into the country. Everything else he did undisputably hurt Fereldan.


If the choice was just between Loghain and Alistair, then I'd choose Alistair every time. Alistair may not want power, but that's better than a crazy person who desires power above all else (besides fighting his delusions).

On the other hand, if I could choose to spare Loghain but keep Alistair, I'd do that. Forcing Loghain into being a Grey Warden sounds fine, though I'd prefer to shove him into the Deep Roads and would never discuss serious strategy with him in fear that he'd try to betray me to the Darkspawn, since that's entirely within his character, especially if he still beleives the Grey Wardens are all pawns of Orlesia.

[solace19k]

Am I in rare company? A company that found Alistair annoying?



How could Alistair have ever become a Grey Warden? In my humble opinion Alistair couldn't even survive in the Army now. Much less a group like the Grey Wardens. In my first playthrough up the the landsmeet I didn't even use him. I found Sten so much more respectable. It did take a while before I could get him to live long enough to be a decent tank, but aside from Sten's starting issues he is alot more of a hero and soldier than Alistair is. So needless to say the choice between a fallen hero's redemption and a melodramatic, irresponsible, self righteous crybaby was quite an easy one to make for me at least. Even playing a "good" character I can't see me taking a more deserving party to the Arch demon other than Sten and Loghain. My only soft spot for the do gooders in this dark setting was Leliana.



Loghain did what he thought was best for his nation. In the five minutes I spent with the former King, I could tell right away that he was a fool. Loghain knew that his nation was in danger with the young, foolish king. Dark times call for dark measures. The characters in this game are second to none to say the least to inspire these kinds of threads though don't you think?

[KnightofPhoenix]

As Loghain quite eloquently put it. He was the one who saw his nation ravaged and destroyed. He was the one who saw his mother raped. He was the one who put his life on the line to save his people. He was the one who sacrificed and shed blood, tears and sweat to save his people. He was the one who freed Ferelden. So like he said: "How dare you judge me?".



What he did was wrong in terms of efficiency. It was not wrong in intention, logic and rationale. We start the game knowing that he is wrong, because that's how the game is, no blight no game. But put yourself in his shoes. I think what he did is understandable, albeit could have been avoided.

It's always easy to judge people from an outsider view. But that way, you are missing half the story, which is unfortunate.



I couldn't possibly bring myself to kill him just to satisfy Alistair's short sighted, very un Grey-Warden like, sentiments.

[RazorrX]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Nice post, RazorrX. :happy:

Kalfear wrote...

LOL, I gotta say, after being on the receiving end of his daughters treachery more then a couple times.
I think shes the one that should die.
At least Logain was doing what he did outta misdirected beleif in his lands
his daughter just a power hungry shrill that lies about everything and anything to advance her position!

What are you talking about? When does she even come close to betraying you? The only time I can actually think of that resembles betrayal is when you face Cauthrien in the Howe's estate and you reveal her identity.  What she did was not betrayal there, it was self defense. You essentially told her own captors that you just rescued her. What would they have done? As far as Anora knows, they'd just lock her back up, double security, and the whole rescue operation would be thrown to the dogs.

Other than that, which is completely justified, what else did Anora do? You say "more than a couple times", so I expect at least two more specific occurrences.

 thank you.

Anora will betray you in the Landsmeet if it is not fully behind you.  She comes in and you tell her to verify that you rescued her and she yells out that you tried to capture her and are trying to take the throne, etc.

[JTwizzy88]

The irony here is that Loghain proved himself to be a terrible king (regent whatever).
1) He ignores the threat of the blight (the greatest threat to all of mankind, previous blights had wiped out many kingdoms)
2) He commits treason and kills his own king out of a misguided sense of paranoia. (who wants a crazy, paranoid king on the throne)
3) He commits treason again and imprisons the daughter in who's name he is ruling
4) He attempts to murder Arl Eamon and the ALL of the Couslands AND the PC
5) He fails at all attempts (not only is he paranoid but he's also incompetent)
6) He breaks the country's laws and sells elven slaves to the Tevinter Imperium to finance his troops
7) He disrupts and almost kills the mages in the circle tower (one of Ferelden's greatest strategic assets)
8) He gets caught, called out on and then beaten by the PC

I think numbers 5 & 8 are the most telling... It's one thing to support a tyrant. I'll admit, tyrants can get things done when things need to be gotten done. However, an incompetent tyrant is just about the worst possible combination you can have. Throw in paranoid, amoral and delusional and BAM there's Loghain in a nutshell

It's funny that people still argue that he'd be the better one on the throne.

Modifié par JTwizzy88, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:49 .

[RazorrX]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As Loghain quite eloquently put it. He was the one who saw his nation ravaged and destroyed. He was the one who saw his mother raped. He was the one who put his life on the line to save his people. He was the one who sacrificed and shed blood, tears and sweat to save his people. He was the one who freed Ferelden. So like he said: "How dare you judge me?".

What he did was wrong in terms of efficiency. It was not wrong in intention, logic and rationale. We start the game knowing that he is wrong, because that's how the game is, no blight no game. But put yourself in his shoes. I think what he did is understandable, albeit could have been avoided.
It's always easy to judge people from an outsider view. But that way, you are missing half the story, which is unfortunate.

I couldn't possibly bring myself to kill him just to satisfy Alistair's short sighted, very un Grey-Warden like, sentiments.

Hmmm as a Male City Elf I saw my people brutalized and murdered.  I saw my cousin raped.  I put MY Life on the line to save the WORLD.  I sacrificed, shed blood, sweat and tears to save even the people who treated mine like ****.  I was the one who ended the blight by sacrifice.  SO yeah, I judge him.

The best thing about Loghain, is he Polarizes the community.  Fanboys love him, Haters hate him.  Very few middle ground.

[RazorrX]

JTwizzy88 wrote...

The irony here is that Loghain proved himself to be a terrible king (regent whatever).
1) He ignores the threat of the blight (the greatest threat to all of mankind, previous blights had wiped out many kingdoms)
2) He commits treason and kills his own king out of a misguided sense of paranoia. (who wants a crazy, paranoid king on the throne)
3) He commits treason again and imprisons the daughter in who's name he is ruling
4) He attempts to murder Arl Eamon and the ALL of the Couslands AND the PC
5) He fails at all attempts (not only is he paranoid but he's also incompetent)
6) He breaks the country's laws and sells elven slaves to Orlais to finance his troops (ironically selling slaves to the very country he's paranoid about)
7) He disrupts and almost kills the mages in the circle tower (one of Ferelden's greatest strategic assets)
8) He gets caught, called out on and then beaten by the PC

I think numbers 5 & 8 are the most telling... It's one thing to support a tyrant. I'll admit, tyrants can get things done when things need to be gotten done. However, an incompetent tyrant is just about the worst possible combination you can have. Throw in paranoid, amoral and delusional and BAM there's Loghain in a nutshell

It's funny that people still argue that he'd be the better one on the throne.

for #6 - THey were being sold the the Tev. Imperium, not Orlais.

[Kalfear]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Nice post, RazorrX. :happy:

Kalfear wrote...

LOL, I gotta say, after being on the receiving end of his daughters treachery more then a couple times.
I think shes the one that should die.
At least Logain was doing what he did outta misdirected beleif in his lands
his daughter just a power hungry shrill that lies about everything and anything to advance her position!

What are you talking about? When does she even come close to betraying you? The only time I can actually think of that resembles betrayal is when you face Cauthrien in the Howe's estate and you reveal her identity.  What she did was not betrayal there, it was self defense. You essentially told her own captors that you just rescued her. What would they have done? As far as Anora knows, they'd just lock her back up, double security, and the whole rescue operation would be thrown to the dogs.

Other than that, which is completely justified, what else did Anora do? You say "more than a couple times", so I expect at least two more specific occurrences.

There is the Howe part, which is huge IMO
but unless you agree to support her, Which I didnt the 2nd time around, she appears at the Landsmeet telling everyone you tried to again hold her captive in the Arls estate (which as we both know is yet anouther lie)

and 2) After welcoming and thanking the city elves for their efforts, at first sign of trouble she becomes tyranical and squashes them to retain her hold on power at any cost

Shes a manipuative little vixen that tells any story to gain power

She does have nice breasts though! Not sure whose are bigger, hers or the Arls of Redcliffs wife! Both are very healthy in that area.

Modifié par Kalfear, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

RazorrX wrote...
Hmmm as a Male City Elf I saw my people brutalized and murdered.  I saw my cousin raped.  I put MY Life on the line to save the WORLD.  I sacrificed, shed blood, sweat and tears to save even the people who treated mine like ****.  I was the one who ended the blight by sacrifice.  SO yeah, I judge him.

The best thing about Loghain, is he Polarizes the community.  Fanboys love him, Haters hate him.  Very few middle ground.

lol Yea well, I guess only the PC can judge.
But yes you are right. Loghain is interesting because he is either loved or hated.

And some people here mistakenly think that I support Loghain as king. Which I do not. Loghain is not fit to be king, he himself knows this. Loghain is a military man at heart. This thread makes it seem like you have to choose between Alistair and Loghain, as to who will be king. But that's not the point. The point is, would you kill Loghain because Alistair asks you too? I wouldn't.

But it's obvious that I do not support Loghain as King, as I end up overthrowing him. The real choice for kingship is between Anora and alistair, or oneself and Alistair. In either cases, I pick myself and Anora over Alistair, with Loghain as leader and recruiter of the Grey Wardens.
 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mutant Dwarf wrote...

Loghain isn't like Hitler at all. No massive death camps, etc.

Loghain is like Stalin.

That comparision is equally faulty. Stalin ended up killing more of his people than Hitler did (excluding the War). The death toll is around 10 to 20 million. Stalin acted out of ideology, so did Hitler. It's unavoidable that they would commit such atroicities as it's deep within their rationale and logic.
Loghain acted, or reacted rather, to a threat he thought was imminent. His rationale did not contain totalitarian atrocities in their roots. We don't compare Napoleon, or other authoritarian leaders, to Hitler, because Napoleon's ideology did not have the same terrible nature as National Socialism, even if it ended up being politically imprudent.

And all leaders were paranoid to a certain degree.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:42 .

[JTwizzy88]

RazorrX wrote...

JTwizzy88 wrote...

for #6 - THey were being sold the the Tev. Imperium, not Orlais.

Thanks, I fixed it

[tobajas]

Well to all you people complaining about Alistair whineing why dont you just change that then? In his personal quest just tell him that everyone is out for themselves and he hardens up. Also Loghain as i see it tried not to betray the King at Ostagar since he asks him to leave the main camp and join his forces and he tried to prevent the Orlaisans from aiding but Cailan was set on this. Loghain hate the orlaisans above all else since they raped his mother and sister infront of him and then killed them and then later killed his father aswell. As I see it he did not want to betray Cailan but he justifies it to himself because the Grey wardens had to die and he had to prevent the Orlaisans from "invadeing" even if it ment sacrificeing the King.

On the other hand Alistair is a wimp but i belive he becomes that way since Duncan who he see's as a father figure dies along with all his friends and he belives all hope is gone but at the same time he has to suck it up to save Fereldan. I dont know how "stable" I myself would be after loseing all that and then pushing myself onward. Also you can harden him up by doing his personal quest the same can be done with Leilana after her personal quest.

My tiping scale was Anora I just wanted to kill that b****. First she asks me to save her and then when i've done it she betrays me and then later at the landsmeet when she had promised to help me she betrays me again --.-- but Alistair wouldent execute her instead he just exiled her. While Anora just wants him executed directly xD. Anora I will find you one day and I WILL KILLLL UUUUU!

Modifié par tobajas, 12 novembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[RazorrX]

I really REALLY wanted an option to whisper in Loghains ear right as I was about to kill him that I was going to have his Daughter Sold as a Slave to an Imperium Brothel.

[Mythrantar]

Mercy for the person who not only is responsible for everything stated above, but also for the fact that he purposefully sends the PC and Alistair to the Tower of Ishal, expecting that they would die? I think not.

Yes, it was the king that gave them the mission, but it is very obvious that Loghain is behind this (very easy to provide a plausible justification because of their "inexperience"). The last survivor of the Cousland family (human Noble origin) AND the only other contender to the throne sent on a suicide mission? Coincidence, I think not.

The sad part is that I liked Loghain so much from the books, it was hard watching him fall so low.

Modifié par Mythrantar, 12 novembre 2009 - 08:41 .

[Wissenschaft]

Loghain is a terrible king but he makes a great grey warden. If I'm a human noble, I'll take Anora as wife and have Loghain redeem himself against the dark spawn.





Anora just wants to stay on the throne. Shes not evil, greedy though.

[Wissenschaft]

If I'm playing another race then I put Alastor with anora. As Leliana tells Alastor, plenty of fools have become king, thats what advisors are for.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As Loghain quite eloquently put it. He was the one who saw his nation ravaged and destroyed. He was the one who saw his mother raped. He was the one who put his life on the line to save his people. He was the one who sacrificed and shed blood, tears and sweat to save his people. He was the one who freed Ferelden. So like he said: "How dare you judge me?".

We dare judge him because we were there when he killed the king and the Grey Wardens.  We judge him because we met his hired blood mage assassin in the Arl's prisons (and he admitted his guilt). We judge him because we proved that he was selling his own people into slavery. We judge him because we personally met the assassin hired to kill us.  We judge him because we saw the torture victims in the Denerim estate. How dare we not judge him?
Not judging him is not only compeltely irresponsible, but just as evil. Letting him get away with it is just as bad as Loghain letting Howe get away with all he did. You can't just turn a blind eye to Loghain's actions and let evil prevail. And forcing the joining into the Grey Wardens is not punishment. He will enver have to undergo The Calling. Just because there is a "chance" that he may die in the ritual is not punishment either. If a man is sentenced to death, you don't toss a coin to decide whether or not to ultimately pull the trigger. Even a 50/50 chance is too good for such a high-ranking criminal.

His past "glory" does not make him immune to his current crimes. He calls the entire assembly traitors at the Landsmeet if they side against him, and he doesn't repent or say he was wrong until his head is in the noose.

He saw his mother raped, he risked his life in the war against Orlais. That war is long over. It in no way comes even close to being relevant in trying to justify his current crimes.

[Aericyn]

From the perspective of game protagonist. He let Duncan die, nay encouraged his death. I respected Duncan. Off with Loghain's head!

[Curry Noodles]

Self Controll wrote...

I see so many people finding faults with alistair. Calling him a cry-baby that complains, saying he is selfish and willing to throw all away for one man etc. Alistair is nothing of those things, if you had seen real combat and its aftereffects you would know what crying and complaining is, stress makes humans do alot of things, and alistairs "complaining" is well within what is right and proper behaviour. Also he do not "throw everything away" for the sake of vengeance. Alistair knows that the PC will keep going along with hes team and whatever other forces he has comitted at that point which in any case is an army, Alistair is 1 man. Its not like the PC and alistair both have to press a button simultaniously to win and alistair refuses and go nah ah. He walks away because he cannot countenance personally fighting alongside loghain, and he feels betrayed by the PC for allowing loghain to live and even making him a gray warder after hes HORRENDOUS betrayel.

Also bear in mind that the PC is in no way alistairs boss, if there are any senior wardens in ferelden its alistair, its just because its a game your calling all the shots, cant have a bossy npc that takes charge all the time, so its not like hes betraying anything other than the supposed mandate of the wardens, he has fought and bled for the good of the world much more than 99,9999% of the rest of the population and if he wants to say **** it due to some retard decision made by the player he is welcome too it.

In any case THE GAME itself says that if/when alistair becomes king he is a good king, so you can take your complaints and shove them up your ass, the game itself says your wrong. If your ending didnt have alistair as king its no matter, its still what would have happened if he had been made king, testamount to who he really is.

"id take loghain over alistair any day, a weak selfish guy like that shoudent be king etc etc"
Jesus ****in christ get a grip of yourself people, loghain committed grand treason, he betrayed hes sworn king and alot of other innocent people for no reason at all, not to mention all the other **** he did. Id put a bullet in hes ear easier than swatting a flie in real life. If you really think loghain can be forgiven you need to take a good hard look in the mirror and start working on a change pronto.

So many people here going oh hes weak, hes a crybaby etc. Who the **** are you to be calling anyone a crybaby?? Almost all of you would prob **** yourself the first time bullets started flying over your head or a bomb exploded close by and would prob desert at the first chanse you got. Its easy to be a tough guy sassing other from the safety of ones couch. I know its a frickin game, but here we are talking among other things abouth peoples qualities, and that transcends games or reality. If someone is a jerk in a game he would be the same in real life making the same jerky decisions. So the end is, if you truly believe that the character of loghain is better of as a king than alistair and that alistair is weak etc, (talking of their character not the ****in game) then your a worthless piece of ****

You're the one who needs to get a grip, this post is practically hysterical.  

Loghain isn't king, doesn't want to become king, never wanted to be king, and will never be king if you save him.  He says that a number of times. 

Second, you say that the PC is not alistair's boss because he's not senior.  Ok, true enough, but Riordan, THE senior grey warden, someone who was at DUNCAN'S joining, is the one who says that Loghain should be a grey warden.  Alistair is the one being insubordinate, disobeying a senior grey warden because of his feelings.  He doesn't seem that different from Cailan in that regard.  

As for alistair being a good king: it says both he and anora are good rulers.  As far as I could tell there wasn't much of a difference between choosing them