250 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spectaculous Goatman]

Wall of text make eyes hurt derp

[DragonKingReborn]

I've not played either ME titles, so I can't comment on the voice acting or how it worked on a personal level. The only game I've played with a fully voiced protagonist was Fahrenheit (I believe it might have been called Indigo Prophecy in North America?) which was fantastic. Short, but fantastic. I'm sure I read in an early thread about DA2 that the dialogue wheel will begin to impact the tone of Hawke's delivery, but we won't know that for sure until we play, I suppose.



The level of customisation in DA:O was good, I liked the Origin stories and different races (just finishing fourth playthrough, male Dalish rogue), will then move on to the dwarven origins. However, the fully voiced protagonist, just like the set player character is simply another method of delivering the story they want to tell. It was - I'm guessing - decided that the PC for DA2 was going to be the Champion of Kirkwall and that it was fairly illogical for said champion to be a dwarf, elf or qunari, which is why the race is set. We can still (unless it's changed in the last 5 minutes) determine gender and class, and still take any path we choose to the games conclusion. Presumably the 'on screen personality' of Hawke will develop depending on the dialogue choices we make and the actions we take to complete quests.



All of the above was just a long-winded way of saying - just because we can't choose our characters race or imagine their voice in our heads, doesn't mean there is no personalisation.



Finally, if it's determined post-release that the fully voiced protagonist doesn't/didn't work then it may be a reasonable assumption to conclude that Bioware will re-think it for the next edition of the series. Most companies - like people - will try something to see if it works better than the way it was done before. If it doesn't, then they'll try something new, or go back to the old way.

[durasteel]

I have a simple idea of role-playing. At the end of Dragon Age: Origins I really had a visceral feeling that I had defeated the blight. I won. Me. Hooray. The same for Mass Effect - I felt like I personally ruined Sovereign's day and personally lead the team that blew up the Collectors. I also think I'm Revan. That's what makes a role playing game, for me... I was in the role to a much greater degree than in other games. I watched my WoW rogue fight Ragnaros, Nefarian, etc., but never felt that kind of connection to the events.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Khayness wrote...

Remember when a Gamepro quote on the DA:O website said "this will be the game to set the RPG bar for years to come."?

I think it did.

And not even BioWare is attempting to reach that high again.

AlanC9 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

As for DA2, what we've seen so far points to the core mechanics of DA2 being XP-based and stat-based level-up, voiced protagonist, story-driven framed narrative, party-based combat...apart from the PC voicing, the other stuff sounds kinda like DA:O to me.  DA:O implemented differently perhaps (linear vs. framed narrative, increasing combat responsiveness and speed), but it doesn't seem like a huge qualitative difference.

That's pretty much the impression I've got, too. One more difference is that the classes have somewhat more defined roles this time around, but that's fairly subtle.

The changes all seem to relate to having less freedom to play your character as you would choose.  The voiced PC is obvious, but then there's the default weapons you can't discard and the inability to equip weapons for which you lack access to relevant talents,

[bjdbwea]

Yeah, I remember what they said about ME 2, and their promises. And yeah, I was very disappointed when I found out that so much of what had made ME 1 great had been removed in ME 2.

Yet if DA 2 is going to be like ME 1, it's going to be great. If it's much more like ME 2 (which I suspect at the moment), then I will probably not buy it.

[AtreiyaN7]

TMZuk wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

.....

As for DA2 - do tell where the changes are in terms of the mechanics that make it somehow LESS of an RPG. SInce we retain stats/attributes and actually get detailed skill trees that allow greater customization than in DA:O, I don't see a problem overall. We have the ability to pause & play just like before on the PC. If you want to argue over the switch to a voiced protagonist, eh, been done to death in another thread as far as I'm concerned.

That is easily replied to.

Less character customization. A major thing about playing an RPG for me, is the ability to really create a character the way I envision him/her. Choose race, wonder about strong points and weak points, and personality. Here, I am offered human, male or female, mage, rogue or warrior. Exciting. Well, then, I'll make a... warrior, with a bit of rogue-skills, dual-wielding, perhaps with a spell or two.... Uh... no. I'll make a warrior using sword/shield, or twohanded sword. I am..... overwhelmed.

Now, DA:O was already very limited in character-creation, but it at least had the different origins and races, which made for some varity. This is going to be just like ME2. I played it, it was fun, but it was an interactive movie, not an RPG. No replay-value whatsoever.... because, hey..... should I play Sheperd, Sheperd... or perhaps Shepard?

Then there's the voice-acting you refuse to debate. Well, sorry, but that is a major grievance. As I've said more times than I remember, I can't stand how Mark Meer plays Sheperd. Like a piece of wood. Jennifer Hale did a far better job, but still, she too made me cringe my toes several times. Because, I have no control over what she says. I'm presented with a silly wheel, and have to hope that it comes out as I would like it... but to often it does not. So if I was to buy DA2 I would have to hope, cross my fingers and pray that at least one of the actors can present a character I can at least somewhat relate to?

Bioware seemed briefly to be reaching back to their roots with DA:O. but everything they have made since shows clearly that they indeed are not the company they once were, more's the shame. Reading Brent Knowles' blog was very enlightening, thanks for posting it. It explained a lot of things I couldn't make sense of before. He apparantly left feeling that him and the company had drifted to far from each other. So I guess it all comes down to that I'll stop buying Bioware games, since they no longer produce the sort of games I like. Shame, but well... Thanks for the games you did make. I'll probably buy ME3 just to see how Sheperd ends, but DA2? I doubt it.

And I was talking about specific game mechanics, etc. retained from DA:O, unrelated to the voiced protagonist and the removal of other races (which is a non-issue for me since we're talking about a human character with a human family). Obviously, it's an issue for you, but frankly, I don't really want to beat dead horses again when people have already done that for over 50+ pages in this thread: http://social.biowar.../index/4829551.

Like the saying goes in Battlestar Galactica: "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."  It certainly looks like we're on schedule for a repeat of that entire thread and the debate over the nature RPGs, which would mean this thread will inevitably be derailed as well. *sigh*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Malanek]

durasteel wrote...

I have a simple idea of role-playing. At the end of Dragon Age: Origins I really had a visceral feeling that I had defeated the blight. I won. Me. Hooray. The same for Mass Effect - I felt like I personally ruined Sovereign's day and personally lead the team that blew up the Collectors. I also think I'm Revan. That's what makes a role playing game, for me... I was in the role to a much greater degree than in other games. I watched my WoW rogue fight Ragnaros, Nefarian, etc., but never felt that kind of connection to the events.

Yep, I agree with this. RPing is all about immersion.

[Merced256]

Yea totally, i was mega immersed when that super awesome score screen showed up after each mission in ME2.

[SXOSXO]

Merced256 wrote...

Yea totally, i was mega immersed when that super awesome score screen showed up after each mission in ME2.

*rimshot*
LOL

The more and more I hear from Bioware, the more obvious it's becoming that DA2 is getting "mainstreamed." I guess it's to be expected, as those of us that prefer the classic style RPG's are definately the minority, but it's dissapointing. But I suppose it's better to get RPG Lite than no RPG at all.

[Enshaid]

SXOSXO wrote...
I suppose it's better to get RPG Lite than no RPG at all.

Less calories. Better for the figure.

[Schneidend]

I remember when they said they weren't removing RPG elements, yes. They didn't. But, then some people belly-ached about their removal, that didn't happen, anyway.



I don't know. It was weird. Like a Twilight Zone episode starring me.

[7th_Phoenix]

Freek on a Leesh wrote...

SXOSXO wrote...
I suppose it's better to get RPG Lite than no RPG at all.

Less calories. Better for the figure.

Haha. 

[In Exile]

BrotherWarth wrote...
The "inventory system" in ME2 was just a list of weapons, only the newest of which you ever used since each one was just a better version of the last. There was no point in using any weapon other than the newest one.

Actually, the inventory system was replaced with the weapon/armour upgrades. If you sit down and quantify what each armour/weapon upgrade means, you will find it correlates extremely well with the bonuses you would get from going from tier to tier in ME1 (i.e. from Onyx II to Predator IV).

The combination of weapon upgrades, research upgrades, plus stylystic armour changes numerically achieves the same thing as ME1. The drops with research on the missions also space out well with the tiered increases you would normally have from the ME1 level scaling.

ME2 hid a lot of the ME1 elements, but they're there. The bigger issue is that ME1 was not much of an RPG to begin with. But for whatever reason, there are some people who think that if you hide the presentation you've taken away the gameplay element, because apparently you need to present inventory only in one way for it to be inventory, even if other ways are functionally equivalent.

[errant_knight]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Khayness wrote...

Remember when a Gamepro quote on the DA:O website said "this will be the game to set the RPG bar for years to come."?

I think it did.

And not even BioWare is attempting to reach that high again.

I don't think I'd be as disappointed if I hadn't thought much the same thing on playing it. I felt like they'd created a new model of RPG, combining what made classic RPGs so awesome with the polish of modern games, better acting, and completely immersive companion interactions. It never occured to me that such a great model would be put aside after one game, to make it more like a different game--one that I didn't enjoy, myself.

[shnizzler93]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I remember that. Every preview that came out said how great the shooting was, how fluid the combat felt compared to the first, and how the powers were more useful. But they never said anything about the RPG elements being improved. People starting getting nervous about ME2 being described as a shooter. Bioware kept saying that nothing was being changed or removed, the combat was just being made better. Then previews started getting more in-depth. People found out about the dumbed-down leveling system and lack of customizable weapons and armor. Bioware still insisted that it was going to be just like ME1 with better combat. Then people found out that was no inventory system and that the game was shorter than ME1. But Bioware stil insisted it was the same as ME1 but with better combat. Well, that was obviously untrue. Completely untrue. Now all we see and hear of DA2 is telling the same story, but Bioware keeps saying its the same as DAO but with better combat. I'm not making this topic to call Bioware liars and whine. I'm making it because some people are so vehemently opposed to any criticism of the game and consider anything but praise and adoration for Bioware blasphemy.
It should be pretty obvious at this point that we're not actually going to get DAO with better combat. It really is 'Dragon Effect'. The Lead Designer for Origins turned down the job for DA2 because he didn't like the direction they decided to take it and even left Bioware after 10 years because he didn't like what Bioware has become. So can't people be on the fence or even against DA2 without being called whiners, fanboys, misinformed, or any other insults?

1)  That depends on your play style. For me, Mass Effect 2 was several hours longer
2) Naturally, this is by the same company, so of course there will be at least some minor bleed-over. Also, whether or not this happens, it could be good or bad, depending on what you prefer
3) Where and when did you hear this?

[Mecha Tengu]

what ish rpg



I want pew pew slash slash button mashing dynasty warriors style action. + rommance with girl with big ******

[In Exile]

durasteel wrote...

I have a simple idea of role-playing. At the end of Dragon Age: Origins I really had a visceral feeling that I had defeated the blight. I won. Me. Hooray. The same for Mass Effect - I felt like I personally ruined Sovereign's day and personally lead the team that blew up the Collectors. I also think I'm Revan. That's what makes a role playing game, for me... I was in the role to a much greater degree than in other games. I watched my WoW rogue fight Ragnaros, Nefarian, etc., but never felt that kind of connection to the events.

I'm on board with that. The only difference being that DA:O absolutely failed to deliver this for me about 1/3rd of the way in, when I realized the fundamental breakdown between the character concept the writers/designers used and the one I used.

Basically, if you pay attention to the game, the origin was meant to be what you were before you became a Grey Warden. But the idea was that your identity, following the joining, was Grey Warden. Take the noble origin as an example. You weren't a Cousland that became a Grey Warden; you were a Grey Warden who used to be a Cousland. The game tried very hard to push an identity of a Grey Warden on you, to marry you to their mission. Even in the Fade, your seductive dream was supposed to be the end of the blight.

[errant_knight]

David Gaider wrote...

[...]
We're not apologetic about these changes, as we think there are things about Origins that needed improvement. Maybe not the same things some of you thought, but there you are. There are also things about Origins we kept and loved, and some of the things we changed we might even return to in the future-- this is one project, not a Manifesto of RPG Intent for all the world to bow down before.

And why am I defending it, anyhow? I suppose it sounds like apologizing when you repeat yourself often enough. So I guess I'll just shrug and leave you to it. Please keep the shouting to a dull roar.

I'm going to cling to this like a Titanic survivor clinging to a scrap of wood in the cold, cold ocean.

[JrayM16]

In Exile wrote...

durasteel wrote...

I have a simple idea of role-playing. At the end of Dragon Age: Origins I really had a visceral feeling that I had defeated the blight. I won. Me. Hooray. The same for Mass Effect - I felt like I personally ruined Sovereign's day and personally lead the team that blew up the Collectors. I also think I'm Revan. That's what makes a role playing game, for me... I was in the role to a much greater degree than in other games. I watched my WoW rogue fight Ragnaros, Nefarian, etc., but never felt that kind of connection to the events.

I'm on board with that. The only difference being that DA:O absolutely failed to deliver this for me about 1/3rd of the way in, when I realized the fundamental breakdown between the character concept the writers/designers used and the one I used.

Basically, if you pay attention to the game, the origin was meant to be what you were before you became a Grey Warden. But the idea was that your identity, following the joining, was Grey Warden. Take the noble origin as an example. You weren't a Cousland that became a Grey Warden; you were a Grey Warden who used to be a Cousland. The game tried very hard to push an identity of a Grey Warden on you, to marry you to their mission. Even in the Fade, your seductive dream was supposed to be the end of the blight.

You just pointed out something that had subconsciously been nagging at me forever.  Now I get it.  You sir, have won.

[Obadiah]

I knew ME2 was in trouble when the marketing changed from "difficult decisions" to "sex and violence."

[thegreateski]

errant_knight wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

[...]
We're not apologetic about these changes, as we think there are things about Origins that needed improvement. Maybe not the same things some of you thought, but there you are. There are also things about Origins we kept and loved, and some of the things we changed we might even return to in the future-- this is one project, not a Manifesto of RPG Intent for all the world to bow down before.

And why am I defending it, anyhow? I suppose it sounds like apologizing when you repeat yourself often enough. So I guess I'll just shrug and leave you to it. Please keep the shouting to a dull roar.

I'm going to cling to this like a Titanic survivor clinging to a scrap of wood in the cold, cold ocean.

A cold, stiff, lifeless husk?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

The Masked Rog wrote...

Khayness wrote...

Remember when a Gamepro quote on the DA:O website said "this will be the game to set the RPG bar for years to come."?

Those years lasted like what, 'till RtO or Awakening?

I wouldn't say that Awakening surpassed Origins, but it was indeed a worthy successor. 

Aside from feeling completely rushed, feeling incomplete in some aspects and having a terrible conversation system, I guess. Awakening could have been far better had it been given the budget and time it needed to get it right.

[Zhijn]

I can understand where OP is coming from.

The marketing/demo so fare for DA2 have been very similar to that of ME2.
And with the knowledge of that it can be hard to see what DA2 is or is not (for me anyway).

Its a constant battle in my head "dont worry, not enough info yet, its to early its to early, wait for it!!". =P

I really hope BioWare will release some more info/videos soon to settle thouse thoughts...  xD

[Livemmo]

You know... aside from the lack of an inventory (something Bioware really shouldve reconsidered or atleast done better), I found Mass Effect 2 to be an overall better game than the original. Now before half the forum jumps down my throat for saying that, how many of you actually enjoyed the horrible combat in the original Mass Effect? Seriously, it was bad. Now how many of you actually spent that much time looking into stats trying to min/max your character? Look, the time of spending hours min/maxing stats in a single player game is done and over and honestly? Good riddance. If I want to spend hours trying to add +1 attack power to my overall build I'll play an mmo.

Now the question is where do you draw the line? A clunky UI along with horrible combat can go, but I think you have to draw the line when you start taking control away from the player in the name of simplicity or (in some cases) laziness. Lets be honest here, you couldve taken the time to improve the inventory in ME2, but you decided to just do away with it completely. It's called being lazy trying to rush the game out the door and theres no excuse for it. I honestly dont even blame the devs either because it was probably one of DEM DER SUITS demanding you get the game out already. Fine.

Bioware, we want to be able to customize our character and our experience. Things like story, character creation, game length, etc. need to remain intact. Do away with the min/max, poor combat, and everything else that drives the average player insane. But please dont screw features that people enjoyed from the original or do away with bad features just because you dont have the time to correct them.

[Nerevar-as]

In Exile wrote...

[The combination of weapon upgrades, research upgrades, plus stylystic armour changes numerically achieves the same thing as ME1. The drops with research on the missions also space out well with the tiered increases you would normally have from the ME1 level scaling.

ME2 hid a lot of the ME1 elements, but they're there. The bigger issue is that ME1 was not much of an RPG to begin with. But for whatever reason, there are some people who think that if you hide the presentation you've taken away the gameplay element, because apparently you need to present inventory only in one way for it to be inventory, even if other ways are functionally equivalent.

Weapons could be actually modded in ME1, ME2 was completely linear. RE4 had the same (actually it was better, as we knew basic weapon stats). On the other side, there was a moment too long before end game when you just always used the same mods.

Agree with ME1 not being that much of an RPG, I didn´t think ME2 changed that much the gameplay feeling. In both games I ended with kind of the same class-build, and different builds felt the same midgame. In ME1 even with different classes there wasn´t that much difference. Now DA2 combat will feel different at least in console (which doesn´t affect me), and maybe visually  (this is more of an artistic choice and not the topic here - is DA2 still Dark Fantasy BTW?)., but so far there´s not enough information to get that scared IMHO. Besides losing race choice to VO <_< things don´t look that terrible.

I really would like to know why BW is marketing the game with a part that will worry/anger/etc a good part of the fanbase. If the game won´t be as much over the top as in the demo are they trying to get players who don´t pay much attention before buying?