250 réponses à ce sujet

[Carmen_Willow]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
I think the question many have to ask isn't whether or nor ME2 and DA2 are RPGs, but rather are they the kind of RPGs they want to play.

That is possibly the most sensible statement I've heard on the forums.

Ditto

[Nerevar-as]

Livemmo wrote...

You know... aside from the lack of an inventory (something Bioware really shouldve reconsidered or atleast done better), I found Mass Effect 2 to be an overall better game than the original. Now before half the forum jumps down my throat for saying that, how many of you actually enjoyed the horrible combat in the original Mass Effect? Seriously, it was bad. Now how many of you actually spent that much time looking into stats trying to min/max your character? Look, the time of spending hours min/maxing stats in a single player game is done and over and honestly? Good riddance. If I want to spend hours trying to add +1 attack power to my overall build I'll play an mmo.

I do. Like to see where I can take a character. Part of what makes an RPG an RPG and not a shooter/adventure/whatever. I didn´t see any of that in ME1 though. Don´t get the thing with the ME1 combat. Only problems were Immunity spam on Insanity and being unable to get killed unless you try really hard midgame on.

[Mr. Man]

I liked ME2 more than the first, to be completely honest. However, this was due to the amazing characters and interesting story and fun cut-scenes. It didn't have much to do with the RPG elements, which I do agree, were better in the first. I agree the inventor was messy, but to simply discard the whole thing because of clunkiness is quite lazy. However the game was so brilliant anyway, that I don't feel compelled to rant and rave.



Then again, as a former command and conquer and Empire Earth fan I am allergic to the very idea of simplifying. The name 'streamlining' has always sent chills down my spine, so maybe it's just a reflex to condemn the dropping of the inventory simply because it falls under that catagory.

[errant_knight]

thegreateski wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

[...]
We're not apologetic about these changes, as we think there are things about Origins that needed improvement. Maybe not the same things some of you thought, but there you are. There are also things about Origins we kept and loved, and some of the things we changed we might even return to in the future-- this is one project, not a Manifesto of RPG Intent for all the world to bow down before.

And why am I defending it, anyhow? I suppose it sounds like apologizing when you repeat yourself often enough. So I guess I'll just shrug and leave you to it. Please keep the shouting to a dull roar.

I'm going to cling to this like a Titanic survivor clinging to a scrap of wood in the cold, cold ocean.

A cold, stiff, lifeless husk?

I said survivor, not corpse. We'll see how long I have to wait, though....

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:44 .

[Mr. Man]

Try my poll, it's about ME3
social.bioware.com/1575943/polls/11533/

[Merced256]

Livemmo wrote...

You know... aside from the lack of an inventory (something Bioware really shouldve reconsidered or atleast done better), I found Mass Effect 2 to be an overall better game than the original. Now before half the forum jumps down my throat for saying that, how many of you actually enjoyed the horrible combat in the original Mass Effect? Seriously, it was bad. Now how many of you actually spent that much time looking into stats trying to min/max your character? Look, the time of spending hours min/maxing stats in a single player game is done and over and honestly? Good riddance. If I want to spend hours trying to add +1 attack power to my overall build I'll play an mmo.

Now the question is where do you draw the line? A clunky UI along with horrible combat can go, but I think you have to draw the line when you start taking control away from the player in the name of simplicity or (in some cases) laziness. Lets be honest here, you couldve taken the time to improve the inventory in ME2, but you decided to just do away with it completely. It's called being lazy trying to rush the game out the door and theres no excuse for it. I honestly dont even blame the devs either because it was probably one of DEM DER SUITS demanding you get the game out already. Fine.

Bioware, we want to be able to customize our character and our experience. Things like story, character creation, game length, etc. need to remain intact. Do away with the min/max, poor combat, and everything else that drives the average player insane. But please dont screw features that people enjoyed from the original or do away with bad features just because you dont have the time to correct them.

On one hand i agree somewhat with you, on the other i completely disagree. Min/maxing in a RPG has sort of a core fundamental, at least for a portion of the crowd who originally identified with D&D ruleset RPGs. Personally, i will restart a game after 40 hours invested if i think about something i could've done better that was inline with the way i chose to play that particular character. But i also totally agree that there are average gamers who have no interest in that stuff and ultimately the game needs to be balanced around that, hence the need for well tuned difficulty levels that aren't just arbitrarily harder through something like increased damage or health on mobs. Something more akin to WoW's "Hardmodes" would be a more elegant solution to this than having FF be only on nightmare.

As far as inventory goes, i want to keep it, and i want it to be meaningful. In DAO there were many very powerful items only obtainable through a vendor and usually for huge sums of money. People who don't take the time to manage their inventory and thus their money shouldn't be able to afford multiples of these items. But then you have the average joe schmoe who wants those items, yet hates the inventory system; what do you do?

Personally i liked ME2 for what it was, which as i described at the time was a cinematic action oriented rpg-lite game. Infact i think i said that exactly line in my very first post on the ME2 forums. Like many though, i want DA to stay completely independant of that... style. Yet bioware has other plans. I respect that i guess, and hell they might even still get my 60 dollars anyway. I will say though, i cannot, i physically cannot force myself to play through ME2 a second time. If thats how DA2 is then i'll genuinely be curious as to how many die hard "BDFers" flip.

[In Exile]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Weapons could be actually modded in ME1, ME2 was completely linear. RE4 had the same (actually it was better, as we knew basic weapon stats). On the other side, there was a moment too long before end game when you just always used the same mods.

The mods were useless and linear, though. These were compartmentalized as skills with the ammo effects, either as single-character or squad.

I haven't played RE4 (survival horror is not my genre) so I can't comment on a comparison.

Agree with ME1 not being that much of an RPG, I didn´t think ME2 changed that much the gameplay feeling. In both games I ended with kind of the same class-build, and different builds felt the same midgame. In ME1 even with different classes there wasn´t that much difference.

I actually thought ME2 made several weapons and builds viable, i.e. any non-pistol build (seriously, pistol was such a broken weapon).

Now DA2 combat will feel different at least in console (which doesn´t affect me), and maybe visually  (this is more of an artistic choice and not the topic here - is DA2 still Dark Fantasy BTW?)., but so far there´s not enough information to get that scared IMHO. Besides losing race choice to VO <_< things don´t look that terrible.

I can't hate the art choice in DA2. It's the team that worked on JE. I just hold the artistic style of JE in such esteem I cannot have anything other than a phenomenal opinion of the art style before this.

[Obadiah]

Livemmo wrote...

You know... aside from the lack of an inventory (something Bioware really shouldve reconsidered or atleast done better), I found Mass Effect 2 to be an overall better game than the original. Now before half the forum jumps down my throat for saying that, how many of you actually enjoyed the horrible combat in the original Mass Effect? Seriously, it was bad. Now how many of you actually spent that much time looking into stats trying to min/max your character?
...

To me the inventory in ME 1 was bad and that was it. I rempapped the spacebar and dash keys a-la ME2, and aside from sticking to cover it was about the same game to me. What I liked more about ME1 was the areas (bigger and, uh, less "designed" for a cover shooter) and the storyline: the Ashley/Liara romance was longer and more interesting than the 2-convo-finish-quest-and-sex romance of ME2, and let's be real now, Saren and Sovereign were WAY better than the collectors and that giant half terminator thingy.

Just my opinion, and I will now stop supporting the hijack of this thread.

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Let me end this argument: Role playing games are all about story. If it's a good story, then it's a good game.

That is all. Everything else is window dressing, dross, and min/max masturbation. Strip away the crap (inventory management, endless number crunching, tedious flow-killing chat tree menus) and the story only become more tighly connected to the player's experience. That is a good thing.

You want to crunch numbers, keep track of what value is plugged into what equation, and balance tables... load up Excel. Crunch numbers to your hearts delight. Me (and 99% of the RPGers out there) want a great story.

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:38 .

[Carmen_Willow]

It was because I loved Dragon Age so much that I tried Mass Effect. I couldn't get through ME because of the clunky combat and being lost in the Citadel without a clue as to what to do. But because I loved Dragon Age and liked Awakenings, I took a chance and bought ME 2. I liked it so much that I went back and played ME through a couple of times so that I would have characters to import. I found things to like about ME, but it didn't have the same impact for me as ME 2.

And nothing so far has touched Dragon Age Origins for immersive role play. I loved that game! I love it still although playing it right now is like listening to that Top 40 hit once too often. I need to set it aside and let it rest for awhile.

My point is this I don't care whether it's a shooter or a rollplay or a roleplay/shooter or a shooter/roleplay...I don't care. I just want DA 2 to be a game I can lose myself in. I want DA 2 to have characters in it I can love and/or hate as deeply and passionately as I did some characters in DA:O. Give me this, Bioware. and I won't care about inventory or the lack of it. Give me a universe in which I can lose myself and I will even forgive you the DA 2 art syle (which doesn't impress me to date). Give me companions that are deep and fully fleshed out and genuine, and I will keep coming back for more. [Edited to add a word]

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:38 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

My point is this I don't care whether it's a shooter or a rollplay or a roleplay/shooter or a shooter/roleplay...I don't care. I just want DA 2 to be a game I can lose myself in. I want DA 2 to have characters in it I can love and/or hate as deeply and passionately as I did some characters in DA:O. Give me this, Bioware. and I won't care about inventory or the lack of it. Give me a universe in which I can lose myself and I will even forgive you the DA 2 art syle (which doesn't impress me to date). Give me companions that are deep and fully fleshed out and genuine, and I will keep coming back for more. [Edited to add a word]

This.  100%.  Games are fun.  Give me a good, fun game, and I don't care what adjective gets appended to the box.

[Merced256]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Let me end this argument: Role playing games are all about story. If it's a good story, then it's a good game.

That is all. Everything else is window dressing, dross, and min/max masturbation. Strip away the crap (inventory management, endless number crunching, tedious flow-killing chat tree menus) and the story only become more tighly connected to the player's experience. That is a good thing.

You want to crunch numbers, keep track of what value is plugged into what equation, and balance tables... load up Excel. Crunch numbers to your hearts delight. Me (and 99% of the RPGers out there) want a great story.

:innocent:

So did you also come up with a way to convince everyone else on the planet that you're correct, cause if so i'd say its brokededed.

[Sable Rhapsody]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Let me end this argument: Role playing games are all about story. If it's a good story, then it's a good game.

That is all. Everything else is window dressing, dross, and min/max masturbation. Strip away the crap (inventory management, endless number crunching, tedious flow-killing chat tree menus) and the story only become more tighly connected to the player's experience. That is a good thing.

You want to crunch numbers, keep track of what value is plugged into what equation, and balance tables... load up Excel. Crunch numbers to your hearts delight. Me (and 99% of the RPGers out there) want a great story.

While I tend to agree with you, I also wear the hat of character optimizer for my tabletop roleplaying games.  That is not a "hat" that should necessarily be denied me.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the mechanics of a roleplaying game.  They're certainly persistent and consistent, if not the most streamlined things in the world.  I felt like KOTOR, to date, has done the best job of balancing mechanics and immersion.  The numbers are there if you wanna crunch them, or you could just Force Lightning everyone and cackle maniacally 

[Sylvius the Mad]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

ME2 hid a lot of the ME1 elements, but they're there. The bigger issue is that ME1 was not much of an RPG to begin with. But for whatever reason, there are some people who think that if you hide the presentation you've taken away the gameplay element, because apparently you need to present inventory only in one way for it to be inventory, even if other ways are functionally equivalent. [/quote]
This is completely true.

And JMike Laidlaw has said that his goal with DA2 is effectively the same thing.  The complexity will still be there, but it won't be forced upon new players and leave them to sink or swim.  This is probably a really good idea.

And people who defend ME2's inventory system on the basis of realism (you can only carry 4 weapons at a time) completely ignore the weapon lockers which were basically access ports to a nonsensically large inventory that somehow you carried around with you everywhere you go.
[quote]In Exile wrote...

I'm on board with that. The only difference being that DA:O absolutely failed to deliver this for me about 1/3rd of the way in, when I realized the fundamental breakdown between the character concept the writers/designers used and the one I used.[/quote]
And while I'm aware that DAO failed for you in this regard, it succeeded for me far better than any ME title ever did.  Even your description of your DAO experience is vastly superior to my ME experience, where muy character concept was utterly destroyed mere minutes into the game, and then repeatedly throughout.

In DAO I didn't find the game forcing my character's personality at all for my first 6 characters.  Though, I will admit my seventh character (who was effectively the same as my first character but a city elf rather than a mage) had the same problems you've described.  And she was a city elf - I believe yours was too.  And her character concept was very closely tied to her city elf origins (I'd played a different city elf earlier whose personality wouldn't have been out of place in any of the origins, and he worked brilliantly - I'm planning to use that same basic design to test DA2's dialogue system).
[quote]Even in the Fade, your seductive dream was supposed to be the end of the blight. [/quoet]
Since the demon can presumably sense the Warden taint within you, is that not a credible dream?

As Morrigan's dream demonstrated, the demon isn't always that good at being seductive.  Some Wardens might find the Weisshaupt dream quite pleasant.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

There are also things about Origins we kept and loved, and some of the things we changed we might even return to in the future-- this is one project, not a Manifesto of RPG Intent for all the world to bow down before.

In case anyone thinks this is an empty promise, I'd like to point out the DAO actually did this.  We got features in DAO we hadn't seen for years.  We got full tactical control of the whole party (something not seen since BG2).  We got a traditional fantasy setting (something not seen since NWN).  DAO did return to features previously abandoned.

[Leonia]

How about this: every time someone makes a comparison between DA:O and ME we each take a shot of tequila (or coffee if we're in a working environment)?

[Dave of Canada]

leonia42 wrote...

How about this: every time someone makes a comparison between DA:O and ME we each take a shot of tequila (or coffee if we're in a working environment)?

I tried this game. I'm now a force ghost, protecting my corpse that died from alcohol poisoning.

[errant_knight]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There are also things about Origins we kept and loved, and some of the things we changed we might even return to in the future-- this is one project, not a Manifesto of RPG Intent for all the world to bow down before.

In case anyone thinks this is an empty promise, I'd like to point out the DAO actually did this.  We got features in DAO we hadn't seen for years.  We got full tactical control of the whole party (something not seen since BG2).  We got a traditional fantasy setting (something not seen since NWN).  DAO did return to features previously abandoned.

This is the best news ever, and even more so since what you say is true.

[Bryy_Miller]

shnizzler93 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

I remember that. Every preview that came out said how great the shooting was, how fluid the combat felt compared to the first, and how the powers were more useful. But they never said anything about the RPG elements being improved. People starting getting nervous about ME2 being described as a shooter. Bioware kept saying that nothing was being changed or removed, the combat was just being made better. Then previews started getting more in-depth. People found out about the dumbed-down leveling system and lack of customizable weapons and armor. Bioware still insisted that it was going to be just like ME1 with better combat. Then people found out that was no inventory system and that the game was shorter than ME1. But Bioware stil insisted it was the same as ME1 but with better combat. Well, that was obviously untrue. Completely untrue. Now all we see and hear of DA2 is telling the same story, but Bioware keeps saying its the same as DAO but with better combat. I'm not making this topic to call Bioware liars and whine. I'm making it because some people are so vehemently opposed to any criticism of the game and consider anything but praise and adoration for Bioware blasphemy.
It should be pretty obvious at this point that we're not actually going to get DAO with better combat. It really is 'Dragon Effect'. The Lead Designer for Origins turned down the job for DA2 because he didn't like the direction they decided to take it and even left Bioware after 10 years because he didn't like what Bioware has become. So can't people be on the fence or even against DA2 without being called whiners, fanboys, misinformed, or any other insults?

1)  That depends on your play style. For me, Mass Effect 2 was several hours longer
2) Naturally, this is by the same company, so of course there will be at least some minor bleed-over. Also, whether or not this happens, it could be good or bad, depending on what you prefer
3) Where and when did you hear this?

He got it from the guy's blog. While it does state that he left because he did not like the type of RPG Dragon Age 2 was looking like, it's not the doom and gloom story that Warth presents. 

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:51 .

[errant_knight]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

shnizzler93 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

I remember that. Every preview that came out said how great the shooting was, how fluid the combat felt compared to the first, and how the powers were more useful. But they never said anything about the RPG elements being improved. People starting getting nervous about ME2 being described as a shooter. Bioware kept saying that nothing was being changed or removed, the combat was just being made better. Then previews started getting more in-depth. People found out about the dumbed-down leveling system and lack of customizable weapons and armor. Bioware still insisted that it was going to be just like ME1 with better combat. Then people found out that was no inventory system and that the game was shorter than ME1. But Bioware stil insisted it was the same as ME1 but with better combat. Well, that was obviously untrue. Completely untrue. Now all we see and hear of DA2 is telling the same story, but Bioware keeps saying its the same as DAO but with better combat. I'm not making this topic to call Bioware liars and whine. I'm making it because some people are so vehemently opposed to any criticism of the game and consider anything but praise and adoration for Bioware blasphemy.
It should be pretty obvious at this point that we're not actually going to get DAO with better combat. It really is 'Dragon Effect'. The Lead Designer for Origins turned down the job for DA2 because he didn't like the direction they decided to take it and even left Bioware after 10 years because he didn't like what Bioware has become. So can't people be on the fence or even against DA2 without being called whiners, fanboys, misinformed, or any other insults?

1)  That depends on your play style. For me, Mass Effect 2 was several hours longer
2) Naturally, this is by the same company, so of course there will be at least some minor bleed-over. Also, whether or not this happens, it could be good or bad, depending on what you prefer
3) Where and when did you hear this?

He got it from the guy's blog. While it does state that he left because he did not like the type of RPG Dragon Age 2 was looking like, it's not the doom and gloom story that Warth presents. 

I went and read it. It's restrained, he doesn't bash anyone, and he doesn't say that it's bad in any way,  but he makes it clear that he left because the game it was shaping up to be wasn't the type of game he wanted to work on, unlike DA:O.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

errant_knight wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In case anyone thinks this is an empty promise, I'd like to point out the DAO actually did this.  We got features in DAO we hadn't seen for years.  We got full tactical control of the whole party (something not seen since BG2).  We got a traditional fantasy setting (something not seen since NWN).  DAO did return to features previously abandoned.

This is the best news ever, and even more so since what you say is true.

It occurs to me that we already know one way in which DA2 is doing this, as well.

There's no camp.  In DAO (and ME, JE, KotOR, NWN, BG2) all your companions hang out in one spot until you need them.  But in BG, there was no camp.  I always thought the camp was silly, and it produced some absurd consequences.  And finally in DA2 they're getting rid of it.

[Livemmo]

Merced256 wrote...

On one hand i agree somewhat with you, on the other i completely disagree. Min/maxing in a RPG has sort of a core fundamental, at least for a portion of the crowd who originally identified with D&D ruleset RPGs. Personally, i will restart a game after 40 hours invested if i think about something i could've done better that was inline with the way i chose to play that particular character. But i also totally agree that there are average gamers who have no interest in that stuff and ultimately the game needs to be balanced around that, hence the need for well tuned difficulty levels that aren't just arbitrarily harder through something like increased damage or health on mobs. Something more akin to WoW's "Hardmodes" would be a more elegant solution to this than having FF be only on nightmare.

As far as inventory goes, i want to keep it, and i want it to be meaningful. In DAO there were many very powerful items only obtainable through a vendor and usually for huge sums of money. People who don't take the time to manage their inventory and thus their money shouldn't be able to afford multiples of these items. But then you have the average joe schmoe who wants those items, yet hates the inventory system; what do you do?

Personally i liked ME2 for what it was, which as i described at the time was a cinematic action oriented rpg-lite game. Infact i think i said that exactly line in my very first post on the ME2 forums. Like many though, i want DA to stay completely independant of that... style. Yet bioware has other plans. I respect that i guess, and hell they might even still get my 60 dollars anyway. I will say though, i cannot, i physically cannot force myself to play through ME2 a second time. If thats how DA2 is then i'll genuinely be curious as to how many die hard "BDFers" flip.

Yeah the min/max thing was sort of a personal issue with me simply because I get enough of that when I play mmos now. Before games like WoW or other mmos I would sit there and play around with stats and really get invested in single player games, but at the end of the day it always kind of felt like it was just for my personal satisfaction. With an mmo where person vs person competition exists and you're not always fighting against the same scripted encounter over and over, it kind of gives you a reason to be invested in every little stat. I dont want to derail this thread into an mmo vs single player game discussion so I'll stop.

I personally really do enjoy the action Mass Effect 2 brings to the game because it's like an action game mixed with an rpg. The problem (in my oppinion) with action games in general is theres no custom game. Everyone that plays Call of Duty for instance gets the same story, uses the same weapons, and for the most part does the same exact thing as everyone else. When you mix the combat of a shooter with core rpg elements like customization and a personal story you have a very unique game that most publishers wouldnt even attempt. Thats where I think Bioware was trying to go, but I think they went too far.

I agree completely with what you wrote about the inventory and I think the whole "i purchased the game so hand me everything now" idea needs to go. Inventory needs to stay theres no question and people need to learn to either save their money or cheat.

I'm not saying throw out the dnd aspect of the game, but at some point we really need to eventually move past it. Lets be honest here the market isnt what it was 10 years ago. Theres an entirely different crowd of people getting into gaming and for the most part theyre the majority. The basic rule of thumb should be to try to satisfy the majority but dont label them as idiots and dumb down the game just because you want to sell more units. A challenging game has always been a good game no matter if your 10 or 40 years old. Games like civ 5 and parts of me 2 really dissapoint me because more and more companies are choosing to "dumb down" their games just to sell to the people that they think are stupid.

[Dave of Canada]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It occurs to me that we already know one way in which DA2 is doing this, as well.

There's no camp.  In DAO (and ME, JE, KotOR, NWN, BG2) all your companions hang out in one spot until you need them.  But in BG, there was no camp.  I always thought the camp was silly, and it produced some absurd consequences.  And finally in DA2 they're getting rid of it.

I'm also extremely happy that each party member will be out doing their own thing instead of sitting and looking at the fire hoping you'd talk with them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:59 .