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[Simbacca]

I've been playing through my insanity Soldiers (yes, two) right now and loving them (Vanguard is still my favorite though).

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The first is a Revenant Soldier, currently just before getting the IFF, pretty standard fare:

4 Hardened Adrenaline Rush
4 Heavy Disruptor Ammo
4 Inferno Ammo
4 Squad Cryo Ammo
4 Commando
1 Slam/Neural Shock

I used Neural Shock for the first half of the game because you can get the Tech Cooldown upgrade a lot faster (i.e., pre-Horizon) than the Biotic Cooldown upgrade. Hell I even respecced into Neural Shockwave for the Disabled Collector Ship (btw, can we start abbreviating this DCS?) mission. Once I did have both those upgrades though, I did switch to Slam the added benefit of instant Warplosions and use against synthetics.

The only thing I'm debating at all currently with this build is if I should try out Shock Trooper over Commando. Should be a minor difference either way, I would think...

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The second is a Widow Soldier, currently just after the Disabled Collector Ship (again, lets use DCS like we use TIM) and Mordin's and Grunt's loyalty missions. This one I haven't decided on which of these will be my final build:

4 Heightened Adrenaline Rush
4 Squad Disruptor Ammo
4 Squad Incendiary Ammo
1 Cryo Ammo
4 Commando
4 Heavy Warp Ammo*

The first setup was my original plan and works fine except for when I need to switch the ammo power on my Widow from Warp to Disruptor mid-mission. For example, versus Eclipse. With my Soldiers, I want my squad using an ammo power that will provide some crowd control. Against Eclipse, mostly organics, that would mean I want my allies using Squad Incendiary Ammo. Widow Shepard, on the other hand, wants to use the ammo power most effective against his target's defenses. I shoot an Eclipse Vanguard with my Heavy Warp Ammo powered Widow, now all that's left is shielded Eclipse Troopers. Ok, let's just get Disruptor on this Wido... DOH! Now my whole squad has switched to Disruptor...

Well damn it, how can I achieve what I want? If I want to get Squad Disruptor on my Widow but leave Squad Incendiary on my allies, I'd have to have my teammates switch weapons, apply Squad Disruptor, now have teammates and Shepard switch weapons, apply Squad Incendiary, and now switch Shepard's weapon back to the Widow. As you can see, that is way too much work to do mid fight. This is exactly as I predicted and why I've always said never go with the 2 Squad / 1 Heavy ammo setup on a Soldier Shepard. One solution would be to leave Squad Disruptor on my Widow and leave Heavy Warp on my Mattock right from the start of the mission, and therefore only ever use the Mattock against the Eclipse Vanguards, but I want to be able to switch the active ammo power on my Widow on the fly, damn it.

But all this did get me thinking, how can I get Squad Cryo on a Widow / Heavy Warp Ammo Soldier? I'd have to leave Disruptor at rank 3, but for Shepard's personal use that is identical to Squad Disruptor. So perhaps this build:

4 Heightened Adrenaline Rush
1 Concussive Shot
3 Disruptor Ammo
2 Incendiary Ammo
4 Squad Cryo Ammo
4 Commando
4 Heavy Warp Ammo*

This would eliminate the potential issue I described above by only have one set it and forget it squad ammo power, and one that has my allies crowd controlling better anyway.

Then I got to thinking that I really want both Heavy Disruptor and Heavy Warp ammo. The fact is, the Widow is weak against shields. Sure rank 3 Disruptor might allow me to one-shot standard shielded troopers late game, but what about during the pre-Horizon missions of NG+, before the +60% sniper rifle damage and +50% headshot damage of upgrades? Haven't gotten to that point yet, but I suspect that is where we would see the need for Heavy Disruptor. Unforunately I can't have both those heavies and still have Squad Cryo for my team on my Soldier. I'd have to play a Widow Infiltrator for that, but then I'd have to give up the great compliment of weapons a Soldier has plus the greater damage of Heightened AR for... Incinerate and Hacking...

So this got me thinking:

4 Heightened Adrenaline Rush
4 Heavy Disruptor Ammo
4 Squad Incendiary Ammo
1 Cryo Ammo
4 Commando
4 Heavy Warp Ammo*

With this slight tweak to the first potential Widow build, I would be able to handle that Eclipse example better and without the same issue. Sure this build leaves me without an approriate squad ammo type for Geth missions, but I could simply use Zaeed for those few missions. It also lets me have the heavy ammo type to use against shielded foes I wanted for the early missions of a NG+ run.

However I do see one potential failing. I wouldn't have access to an appropriate squad ammo type for NG+ Freedom's Progress. Shepard can't recruit Zaeed before that mission so... so this brings me right back to my first potential Widow build above... and the loop continues...

Actually though, I think I will probably end up with this third potential build. This issue I see with this third build is for just one mission while the issue I have with the first proposed build is any of the numerous missions with a mix of shielded foes with barriered/armored foes.

Squadmates: for my Widow Soldier, I'm considering something I little different.  I remember sinosleep's Warpbombtastic Sentinel video where he was always using Jack and Samara for their quick cooldown Pulls.  Pull doesn't just combo with Warp though, it also combos with Warp Ammo too!  I'm going to attempt to always use Jack (Heavy Shockwave, Pull Field, Primal Adept) and Morinth (2 Throw, Pull Field, Erdua Yakshi, 3 Dominate) for this very reason, crowd control plus quick enemy deaths from my Heavy Warp ammo powered Mattock and GPS.

*Heavy Warp Ammo is non-negotiable for my Widow Soldier's bonus power.  I know there are other effective bonus powers, but this is how I want my Widow Soldier.

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TL;DR:  Actually no, it isn't too long to not take a whole one minute to read.  If you can't take one minute to read a thread's OP, then just don't bother posting.

Modifié par Simbacca, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:25 .

[Kronner]

I have 2 Soldiers with that weapon selection too.

Ammo powers are always the same - weapon selection has much bigger impact.

My Rev soldier:
Shock Trooper
Hardened AR
Squad Cryo Ammo
Inferno Ammo
Squad Disruptor Ammo (the explosions from heavy version suck)
no bonus talent

Revenant/Viper are used very often. GPS/Evi very rarely.


Mattock soldier (with Widow):
Commando
Heightened AR
Squad Cryo
Inferno Ammo
Squad Disruptor (the explosions from heavy version suck)
no bonus talent

Mattock is much better than the Widow. It is not really close tbh. I only use the Widow because sometimes I want to one shot someone just for kicks. Otherwise Mattock + Viper is a lot better combo imho.

I never take Heavy Warp ammo since my Soldiers are not biotics, but it is definitely great bonus power.

Inferno ammo is the best all around ammo for both builds imho (especially if you replace Widow with Viper). Cryo is just a bonus for squadmates, Disruptor used against geth.


If I went for Warp ammo:
Commando
Heightened AR
Squad Inferno Ammo - ammo for 2 squadmates against organic enemies
Squad Disruptor - against geth, for the whole squad
Heavy Warp Ammo - max damage for Shepard

Modifié par Kronner, 06 octobre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Bozorgmehr]

If you want to OHOK barrier enemies you'll need Warp Ammo for the Widow, but I like to use both Viper and Mattock (more than sufficient ammo combined) and I take the Claymore just for fun. This provides option to take another bonus power though AR is all you'll need.



I like using squadmates primarily for defense stripping, or area defense stripping + disabling a couple: Overload + Flashang; Incinerate + Pull; or double defense stripping + Cryo Ammo AR. It's all good. You don't need squadies to provide additional firepower for sure, not for their ammo powers either (I use squad Disruptor Ammo on Shep) so thinking of some nice power combos before each mission might add some extra fun and you can join in the combo fest using Shep's bonus power.

[Tony Gunslinger]

IMO for the Widow/Mattock solder, I'd go for Konner's build. Like he mentioned, the Widow is really just a humiliation stick when you have the Mattock. I actually quit playing mine by the time I got Legion because I already know what's gonna happen on the suicice mission.

[Athenau]

I know everyone loves squad cryo + damage ammo power for shep, but has anyone tried the reverse, i.e heavy cryo for shep and damage squad power for everyone else?

It's pretty effective so far, chain freezing enemies is super easy with the Mattock's dps + high fire rate + high proc chance + heavy cryo's freeze time/

Plus frozen enemies really do take a lot of damage--regular ammo powers do less than indicated because the ammo damage call  uses base weapon damage (meaning 70% from AP is more like 70/1.6 = 43% when you have 6 weapon upgrades) while frozen enemies always take a flat +100%.

I'm starting to wonder if cryo isn't the best choice for normal enemies once you get most of your weapon upgrades

Modifié par Athenau, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Athenau wrote...

I know everyone loves squad cryo + damage ammo power for shep, but has anyone tried the reverse, i.e heavy cryo for shep and damage squad power for everyone else?

It's pretty effective so far, chain freezing enemies is super easy with the Mattock's dps + high fire rate + high proc chance + heavy cryo's freeze time/

Plus frozen enemies really do take a lot of damage--regular ammo powers do less than indicated because the ammo damage call  uses base weapon damage (meaning 70% from AP is more like 70/1.6 = 43% when you have 6 weapon upgrades) while frozen enemies always take a flat +100%.

I'm starting to wonder if cryo isn't the best choice for normal enemies once you get most of your weapon upgrades

Yes, I've done that but with my Mattock/Viper infiltrator. If I was playing on the PC I'd post a vid on it.

[Kaylord]

I am not sure about heavy cryo. My enemies are usually dead at the time the freeze actually kicks in. It is more about your squadmates stopping enemies from firing while you pick them off one by one.

I imagine warp ammo is hard to pass by, especially on collector missions. But with hAR, widow-oneshots should still be possible on standard collectors with any other ammo type? can somebody confírm that.

Modifié par Kaylord, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:13 .

[Simbacca]

Kaylord wrote...

...But with hAR, widow-oneshots should still be possible on standard collectors with any other ammo type? can somebody confírm that.

Finally someone, in a round about way, getting to what I was actually questioning in my post.

If anyone actually read my post, they know the debates between my final build choices is around maintaining OHOKs on shielded and barriered mooks (mainly shielded since my question was about one-shotting, say Blue Suns Troopers, in early missions of NG+, i.e. pre-upgrades).  If anyone read it, they'd also see I said that Heavy Warp Ammo is non-negotiable for the Widow Soldier I want to run, despite the fact that I know there are other good bonus power choices.  Yes I know the Mattock is awesome, yes I know the Viper is awesome, this is very far from my first ME2 playthrough.  I wasn't asking discussing loading old saves and switching DCS weapon choices.

And kajtarp, you continue to be annoying, condesending, and useless in your posting as usual around here.  If you don't like my thread, stay out of it.  Why do forum nerds that dislike a thread post in it, only bumping it to the top?  Seems counter-productive.  Must be the theory I put forth when you were acting the same in Oni's thread.



Anyway if my OP was a "TL;DR", then no one comment.  I assure you, it took me far longer to think about and type it out than the whole 1 minute it would take any of you to read it. 


My statements/questions, specifically about my Widow/Mattock Soldier, boiled down to this:

• To Widow one-shot shielded mooks, for example a Blue Suns Trooper, during the early game of NG+ (as in with just the 2 early sniper rifle damage upgrades, so +20%), does a Soldier need Heavy Disruptor or would rank 3 or Squad still achieve the OHOK?  I ask for both shots both in and out of HeAR.
• I'm thinking of running Jack and Morinth as my main team for dual Pull Fields with decent squad cooldowns.  This was inspired by sinosleep's use of them to combo with his Sentinel's Heavy Warp(bombs).  I would use it not just for crowd control, but also as a quick finisher since I will be using Heavy Warp Ammo on my Mattock.  It has been fun and effective so far.  I was just wondering if anyone else had tried that.

And if people don't like me calling out the OT way this has gone, then show that by letting the thread die instead of wasting mine and everyone else time posting BS.

Modifié par Simbacca, 07 octobre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Simbacca wrote...

[*]To Widow one-shot shielded mooks, for example a Blue Suns Trooper, during the early game of NG+ (as in zero sniper rifle upgrades), does a Soldier need Heavy Disruptor or would rank 3 or Squad still achieve the OHOK?  I ask for both shots both in and out of HeAR.
[*]
[*]

On NG+ with no upgrades, it does not. Of course you're given enough money in the beginning to buy the two sniper upgrades that are already available, but I don't know what rules you've set for yourself in your playthrough.

I've read your OP and I've throught about the same dilemma as you have, I realy wanted to use the Widow as much as possible because I wanted to be a sniper and not a Mattock soldier who just happens to have a Widow, but it just turns out that way in the end for me. I just had Heavy Disruptor and Inferno ammos as hotkeys and swap them on the fly, and for collector missions I sacrificed Squad Cryo and Disruptor ammo to have Heavy Warp ammo, which I didn't enjoy as much (effective squadmates was more important to me back then), so I redid those missions with my default setup and forgo the one-shot kill idea in favor of a happy team. Anyways, towards the end, I just didn't bother to build around the Widow.

[Simbacca]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

On NG+ with no upgrades, it does not. Of course you're given enough money in the beginning to buy the two sniper upgrades that are already available, but I don't know what rules you've set for yourself in your playthrough...

I hadn't looked into the what upgrades you can get when but yeah, you can get two Sniper Rifle damage upgrades right after Freedom's Progress.  So fine, the stipulation is with only +20% Sniper damage from just those two upgrades.

[Bozorgmehr]

Simbacca wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

On NG+ with no upgrades, it does not. Of course you're given enough money in the beginning to buy the two sniper upgrades that are already available, but I don't know what rules you've set for yourself in your playthrough...

I hadn't looked into the what upgrades you can get when but yeah, you can get two Sniper Rifle damage upgrades right after Freedom's Progress.  So fine, the stipulation is with only +20% Sniper damage from just those two upgrades.

If you pick up Mordin first (almost all enemies have armor on that mission, shouldn't cause much trouble), get Grunt after that for the 3rd SR upgrade for the extra headshot damage. With the 30% damage bonus and the two extra research upgrades it should be possible to OHOK shielded troopers (add some weapon damage improving gear and/or bring Miranda for her damage bonus to be sure) I think you don't need Heavy Disruptor by then so it doesn't interferes with ammo types you want your squadies to use.

I'm not sure about this - haven't played a NG+ Widow Soldier (yet)

[Simbacca]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

On NG+ with no upgrades, it does not. Of course you're given enough money in the beginning to buy the two sniper upgrades that are already available, but I don't know what rules you've set for yourself in your playthrough...

I hadn't looked into the what upgrades you can get when but yeah, you can get two Sniper Rifle damage upgrades right after Freedom's Progress.  So fine, the stipulation is with only +20% Sniper damage from just those two upgrades.

If you pick up Mordin first (almost all enemies have armor on that mission, shouldn't cause much trouble), get Grunt after that for the 3rd SR upgrade for the extra headshot damage. With the 30% damage bonus and the two extra research upgrades it should be possible to OHOK shielded troopers (add some weapon damage improving gear and/or bring Miranda for her damage bonus to be sure) I think you don't need Heavy Disruptor by then so it doesn't interferes with ammo types you want your squadies to use.

I'm not sure about this - haven't played a NG+ Widow Soldier (yet)

Good point, however there would be a ton of Blue Suns mercs I'd like to one-shot on Grunt recruitment.  So the 2 sniper damage upgrades only question still needs testing.

This may be something I end up testing once I get my Widow Soldier finished; what rank ammos are needed to maintain Widow one-shots at different points in the game with different upgrades and so on.  I was already planning on it with this Shepard, but I thought I'd ask if anyone else already knew first.  Whenever I get around to playing again, I look forward to discovering and sharing the results.

Modifié par Simbacca, 07 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Simbacca wrote...

I'm thinking of running Jack and Morinth as my main team for dual Pull
Fields with decent squad cooldowns.  This was inspired by sinosleep's
use of them to combo with his Sentinel's Heavy Warp(bombs).  I would use
it not just for crowd control, but also as a quick finisher since
I will be using Heavy Warp Ammo on my Mattock.  It has been fun and
effective so far.  I was just wondering if anyone else had tried that.

I guess you're going the Renegade path, love the comments both Jack and Morinth make throughout the game

Pull is very effective though I think using Warp Ammo with the Mattock is overkill, but it's better to be safe than sorry

Don't forget using Jack's Shockwave. I found it to be perfect to knock enemies out of cover. Use Jack's SW, activate AR and shoot the guy who was trying to hide. It can also stagger a group of enemies briefly, providing easier and safer maneuverability. 

Dominate is awesome, but you can also take Samara - together with Jack's Pull Field - you can insta-strip enemies with both armor and barriers and get them in the air, so you can put some holes in them using the Mattock or HP.

[swn32]

You'd want to stick with the Widow if you want to exploit the stasis glitch.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

[*]To Widow one-shot shielded mooks, for example a Blue Suns Trooper, during the early game of NG+ (as in zero sniper rifle upgrades), does a Soldier need Heavy Disruptor or would rank 3 or Squad still achieve the OHOK?  I ask for both shots both in and out of HeAR.

On NG+ with no upgrades, it does not. Of course you're given enough money in the beginning to buy the two sniper upgrades that are already available, but I don't know what rules you've set for yourself in your playthrough.

Ooh crap. I had a total brain fart.

An regular headshot will not OHOK, but HeAR headshots does achieve OHOK, without disruptor ammo and upgrades. With the 2 upgrades, regular headshots will OHOK easily.

[Kaylord]

Just finished the Omega missions with a NG+ Mattock/Widow soldier. Mordins recruitment was done with one sniper upgrade from the shop. I was doing oneshots with hAR and Inferno Ammo on Vorcha.

Oneshots on shielded mercs on Garrus mission were tricky. Without hAR, squad disruptor was not enough. With hAR it was no problem, I kept disruptor ammo on, but apparenty to Tony, it is not even necessary. Maybe I should respecc squad disruptor to heavy for oneshots without hAR.

[Lord_Caledore]

That Rev build is basically the same I use, though I use Shock Trooper instead. I've tried both Commando and Shock Trooper out on the build, and honestly, I didn't notice a difference with either. I went with Shock Trooper in the end just for the higher Renegade/Paragon score and slightly longer Adrenaline Rush. The health bonus also goes along with my N7 armor, which stacks a lot of health (though originally I made the set purely for ascetic reasons, for whatever reason I really like all the pieces that give health).



I also prefer Neural Shock over Slam, but that's purely for roleplay reasons.

[Alamar2078]

For Widow Soldiers [or any soldier that has reason to change ammo types during a fight] I like to take the heavy versions of everything EXCEPT for Squad Cryo. This way Shep can flip to almost any of the ammo powers that I'd want without disturbing teammates. The only downside is if you want a squad ammo power you have to take Zaaed, Grunt, Jacob, etc. along with you so that limits the team "powers" that can be used on certain mission.



I'll usually run a Widow / Mattock Soldier around the following build:

-- Heightened AR

-- Heavy Disruptor

-- Heavy Inferno

-- Commando

-- Heavy Warp Ammo

-- 1 point in Concussive Blast



An ammo power for every occassion, as much +damage as I can easily get, the CB is occassionally handy at the end of missions or if I want to push someone off of a platform, etc.



Note: On levels against Blue Suns where I might be using a lot of Disruptor I still like to keep a Pistol and with Heavy Inferno ammo to pick off folks without defenses or if I need to panic someone closeby.

[Simbacca]

@Alamar2078:  Interesting, that is most similar to my third potential Widow Soldier build (though I'd like 1pt Cryo instead of Concussive Shot for my Shotgun on Geth missions and for my Heavy Pistol generally).  My question for you is: do you find the extra 10% damage Inferno Ammo does versus armor over Heavy Warp Ammo needed to one-shot armored foes, both in and out of HeAR?  That seems to be a duplication of purpose a bit.  I imagine Vorcha and Loki Mechs get one-shotted by the Widow no matter if its Inferno or Heavy Warp, and I imagine Krogan survive one shot no matter if the Widow has Inferno or Heavy Warp, so that would yield no practical difference.  Of course I'm just speculating at the moment, which is why I ask you

Bozorgmehr wrote...

...Dominate is awesome, but you can also take Samara - together with Jack's Pull Field - you can insta-strip enemies with both armor and barriers and get them in the air, so you can put some holes in them using the Mattock or HP.

I know but I don't need Reave.  I kept Samara with my Rev Soldier for just that reason, AoE barrier stripping.  However since my Widow Soldier will always have Heavy Warp Ammo, I won't need it as much.  Also with Samara, and I can't get Pull Field and Area Reave with maxed passive; with Morinth rank 3 in Dominate is all I want for it's rare use (and hell I may even respec her out of Dominate completely, since defenseless enemies are going to be getting hit by one of the two Pull Fields anyway, for Heavy Throw, which would also combo with Jack's Pulling nicely) .  Also it is time for me to finally run around with Morinth instead and hear what her comments are like (i LOL on Tuchanka when after her comments, Grunt called her an "Asari ****" ).

Modifié par Simbacca, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Alamar2078]

I like having Inferno Ammo AND Warp Ammo because sometimes [often??] I'll be using a Pistol or Mattock and the Area-Effect-Fire-Damage and Panic is handy. I esp. like Inferno on Husk heavy missions because even if it's a little damage to a closeby husk that's one less shot that it takes to kill it ...

[Alamar2078]

BTW: In terms of just pure damage to a single target I don't think you'll see much of a difference inside or outside of AR.



You might see a minor difference outside of AR with a low damage weapon [maybe a light pistol?] but I don't think it's enough to worry about in those terms.

[SirValeq]

And keep in mind that any difference you might even notice will become smaller once you get more damage upgrades from research/shops. In the beginning of the game the 10% difference with a totally not upgraded weapon might be noticeable. In the end however, it'll be 50%+60% vs 50%+50%. Totally negligible.