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The Geth/Quarian argument thread: because it isn't actually argued about, but it's still an issue.


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#1
Anglerfish

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 I am surprised to see few arguments concerning the geth and the quarians. It has been made clear in ME2 that the quarians are keen to reclaim their homeworld from the geth, the synthetic race that they created. There are two points for discussion here: firstly, the odds faced by the quarians; secondly, who is actually at fault in their continued strife?

Whilst the geth may have driven the quarians off their homeworld, they argue that they did so out of self-defence. The quarians became afraid of their servants when their neural network became complex enough to achieve sentience, resulting in the occurrence of philosophical questions. Were the quarians right to assume the worst and attempt to destroy their creations, or did they react hastily and complete a self-fulfilling prophecy? Can we condone the geth's aggressive response to the quarian attempts to shut them down? Obviously the will to survive justifies retaliation, but the geth were arguably close to genocidal in their response. We cannot say that the geth were motivated by hatred or ignorance - as the quarians arguably were - since the geth do not experience such emotional impediments and may simply have sought to preserve their race using what they determined to be necessary force. 

Then there is the issue of usefulness in the coming battles against the Reaper fleets. Galactic stability must be the priority in the long term, as the Reapers will make short work of a galaxy filled with species whose alliances have been shattered by petty infighting and whose military forces are overextended in attempts to deal with multiple unstable elements to the equation. On the other hand, the Citadel races could barely defeat one Reaper, and even that victory seemed to be the result of good fortune - a timely overload following Saren's death. We must consider that both the quarian migrant fleet and the geth would be potentially invaluable components in the war machine against the Reaper invasion.

The geth could be as much of a liability as the rachni or the krogan, if one selected to preserve the rachni queen or the genophage cure, respectively. Any one of these three races would make for incredibly powerful allies, but are far from concerned with the survival of other races. The geth are a sentient race and suffice it to say that they have a lot to offer organic civilizations, if peaceful relations could be established. Whilst the geth are unwilling to share technology, they would make for a vastly powerful ally in the fight against the Reapers and whatever comes next, and while one might argue that their killing billions of quarians cannot be justified, one must remember that it was a war. They could also offer us more objective insights into some of the pettier political problems Shepard is always impeded by, as well as presenting the council with an example of what a collective race can achieve when infighting is minimal.

I speak as though the geth have yet to damage galactic stability and prove that they are nothing but a threat because it was revealed that the "orthodox" or "true" geth were not responsible for the attacks on the Citadel, as it was actually the "heretic" geth, who aligned themselves with Sovereign and Saren in an attempt to achieve their goal of creating megastructure to house all geth software programs by using a Reaper - a seemingly obvious trap, but one by which the heretic geth were apparently unperturbed. The heretics were the threat, and Legion clearly demonstrates that the orthodox geth, while unwilling to share technology, are not opposed to co-operation when needs are aligned. This is a sign that peace should be possible, provided that the council races are prepared to accept the geth as an ally - and I can see that taking more than just an intimidate response.

It is also worth noting that the orthodox geth also seem to have developed an ethical stance on technological advancement, despite their apparent unfamiliarity with emotions: the geth believe that the ends do not necessarily justify the means - rather that the geth must not allow themselves to be seduced by the quick, easy paths that may be presented to them, and must instead opt for using their own methods, with limited exposure to other races [the presumably eradicated "heretic" geth were consequentialist, however, and sought to expedite the achievement of their ultimate goal by submitting entirely to the will of the Reapers].

The way in which the orthodox geth have reached the conclusion that the ends do not always justify the means is not entirely alarming, just keep in mind that they will not have arrived at the conclusion through emotion. They do not see any value in the journey, rather they recognise that if the journey is undertaken improperly, one may arrive at the destination at a disadvantage.

For instance, say you have been attempting to construct a vehicle to travel over a mountain. You then see another group of people who have already finished such a creation. You may either request a lift or continue in your own efforts. The former option is the consequentialist one - it is the most efficient solution, as you will arrive at your destination far sooner than if you remain behind to build your own device, which may take a long time to perfect; the latter option is the orthodox geth's position, and it makes sense objectively when one considers that if you use the technology of another, you will have learned nothing yourself and you will become relying on the technology of others, leaving you no room to expand your own abilities and no opportunities to see something they might have missed.

It is essentially a matter of efficiency versus efficacy, both of which would be relevant considerations to a mechanical mind, but is the orthodox philosophy viable? Their technology speaks for itself, but how much of it came from Sovereign or Reaper technology? Have the geth truly worked from their own first principles the entire time? And who is to say that the journey matters at all? Were it not for the Reapers' ominous talk of organic civilizations "developing along the paths [they] desire" I doubt very much that any players would think twice about the Collector station decision - there would be no reason to destroy it, save the Illusive Man's potentially xenophobic intentions, but he cannot be that stupid - he maintains that his primary concern is the Reaper threat, and he must realise that empowering the other races will be important too.

Returning to the quarians, we have a problem - the reclamation war. If the quarians attempt to retake their homeworld, one of two things will happen: either they will have the necessary weapons to destroy the geth [possibly using the data you may have given Tali in ME1 or the research you found aboard the Alarei] and will wipe out/drive back a race of machines with highly advanced, potentially game changing technology, or the quarians will be wiped out in a matter of minutes, resulting in the destruction of the largest fleet in the galaxy and another potential game-changing element against the Reapers.

Basically, I wish to discuss the ethical issues as to who was in the right, the quarians for pre-emptively attacking the geth, or the geth for responding with all necessary force to an arguably baseless attempt at genocide against the neural network; I also want to initiate discussion on the subject of who would be more useful as an ally, and on the subject of potential ME1 and ME2 factors that may enable or prevent Shepard from defusing the impending war between the creator and the created.

I would also seek to tie the discussion of the validity of the orthodox geth philosophy into the argument regarding the Collector station - if the geth model of advancement can be applied to organic, we shouldn't keep the station, as doing so would render our technology entirely predictable to the Reapers. The geth have clearly made great strides in their technology and seemingly without the assimilation of existing technologies; however, if organics ultimately lack the geth's objectivity and ability to work collectively on advancement, and the overall cohesion and the clarity of judgement afforded to the geth by their networked software programs, then humanity must seize the opportunity presented by the Collector station. Are the geth really that different to organic races, or are their ways only plausible to organics in principle?

Addendum: Shepard's resolution of the Overlord incident may also have an effect on future geth relations, or certainly on Cerberus's ability to manipulate them.

Modifié par Anglerfish, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:02 .


#2
scotchtape622

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I tend to support the Quarians here. The Geth don't really fit my sense of "sentient," I do not trust them at all, and I am much more empathetic to the Quarian side of the Morning War.

#3
ISpeakTheTruth

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I'm on the side of the Geth here. The Quarians tried to destroy the Geth because they realised that they were alive, the Geth defended themselves and the Quraians lost. However the fact that there are still Quarians in the galaxy tell me that the Geth are more moral than they are. The Quarians if they had won would have destroyed every Geth and thought nothing of it the Geth on the other hand were the ones attacked and yet allowed the Quarians to excist after the war and are even open to peaece between the two.



My probmel with the Quarians is that they haven't learned anything. Even Tali who is suppose to be a sane Quarian goes around saying "Oh we had to attack them first!" "They kicked up off our planet!!" They don't even see what there mistake was in the war. Tali thinks the mistake was making the Geth when the mistake was trying to kill the Geth when they became sentient. The Geth as a specie (Judging them by Legion) seem to be a very open minded people who believe that ever specie has the right to live in peace so they can achieve what they want to achieve.



The only sane Quarian I've seen in game is Qwib-Qwib, if in ME3 more Quarians are like him than I'd like the Quarians more but as of right now I'm 100% on the Geth's side. Don't get me wrong I still want peace between the two of them as my ideal option.

#4
StarcloudSWG

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Yeah, basically, the Quarians panicked when the Geth 'woke up', because they were afraid of what the Council would say.

#5
Mr. Gogeta34

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Don't need a war to ask the Geth to move to another planet.

#6
scotchtape622

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

Yeah, basically, the Quarians panicked when the Geth 'woke up', because they were afraid of what the Council would say.

And they were afraid that they would soon become extinct from killer robots.

#7
ISpeakTheTruth

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scotchtape622 wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Yeah, basically, the Quarians panicked when the Geth 'woke up', because they were afraid of what the Council would say.

And they were afraid that they would soon become extinct from killer robots.


And that fear was based on nothing at all. All the Geth did was ask if they had a soul.

#8
scotchtape622

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ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Yeah, basically, the Quarians panicked when the Geth 'woke up', because they were afraid of what the Council would say.

And they were afraid that they would soon become extinct from killer robots.


And that fear was based on nothing at all. All the Geth did was ask if they had a soul.

It doesn't matter what it is based on, strategically they made the correct decision. They couldn't take the risk of letting them rebel. Making the first strike was the intellegent thing to do.

#9
JediSoth

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Don't need a war to ask the Geth to move to another planet.


Especially since the geth aren't actually occupying Rannoch; they just have mobile platforms there doing clean-up and restoration....for when the Creators return.

#10
StarcloudSWG

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Strategically they made *a* correct decision. It wasn't necessarily *the* correct decision.

There is no reason, at this point, that Geth and the Quarians could not co-exist. What's preventing them from doing so is the deep cultural suspicion of Geth that the Quarians now have, and the Geth's logical response to the seeming implacability of the Quarians.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 07 octobre 2010 - 12:00 .


#11
scotchtape622

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

Strategically they made *a* correct decision. It wasn't necessarily *the* correct decision.

There is no reason, at this point, that Geth and the Quarians could not co-exist. What's preventing them from doing so is the deep cultural suspicion of Geth that the Quarians now have, and the Geth's logical response to the seeming implacability of the Quarians.

It was the correct decision. It wasn't the best outcome, but they couldn't take the risk of letting the Geth attack first.

#12
ISpeakTheTruth

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scotchtape622 wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Yeah, basically, the Quarians panicked when the Geth 'woke up', because they were afraid of what the Council would say.

And they were afraid that they would soon become extinct from killer robots.


And that fear was based on nothing at all. All the Geth did was ask if they had a soul.

It doesn't matter what it is based on, strategically they made the correct decision. They couldn't take the risk of letting them rebel. Making the first strike was the intellegent thing to do.


Now that's just silly. How is destroying an enitre race the right decision when your only reason is based on what they 'could' have done. Based on that logic it would be the right decision to attack every sentient specie because they could attack you first.

If you don't want them to rebel you know how to fix that? Give them nothing to rebel against once they saw they were sentient they should have said that they aren't tools of labor anymore they're more and then talk to them. ask what they want to do, ask what you could do to help if you give them no hostility than there is no logical reason for them to become hostile.

#13
Guest_Shandepared_*

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Anglerfish wrote...

 I am surprised to see few arguments concerning the geth and the quarians.


We've had tons of arguments about them. The quarian/geth issue is second only to Cerberus and the Collector base. In any case I don't think the quarians did anything wrong when they tried to destroy the geth and I support any and all efforts to reclaim their homeworld. I do not regard machines as being alive.

#14
scotchtape622

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"Now that's just silly. How is destroying an enitre race the right decision when your only reason is based on what they 'could' have done. Based on that logic it would be the right decision to attack every sentient specie because they could attack you first.



If you don't want them to rebel you know how to fix that? Give them nothing to rebel against once they saw they were sentient they should have said that they aren't tools of labor anymore they're more and then talk to them. ask what they want to do, ask what you could do to help if you give them no hostility than there is no logical reason for them to become hostile."



lol, learn some empathy. Put yourself in the position of the Quarian leaders of the time. Would you like to go down in history as the man who let his entire species be killed off? Would you take the risk of "diplomacy" with a type of "lifeform" (for lack of a better word) that you have absolutely no understanding of? Can you trust them even long enough to put them in a position of diplomacy, or do you strike first, with the protect of your people in your heart? Don't try and blame the Quarians for what they did, any intelligent person would have done the same.

#15
Thompson family

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Anglerfish wrote...

 I am surprised to see few arguments concerning the geth and the quarians. It has been made clear in ME2 that the quarians are keen to reclaim their homeworld from the geth, the synthetic race that they created. There are two points for discussion here: firstly, the odds faced by the quarians; secondly, who is actually at fault in their continued strife?


Who's at fault? That's a non-issue. Legion clearly says the Geth hold no grudge. That's hard to believe until one remembers that they are machines, after all. Self-defense is vital, but vengence is destructive.

However, provocative acts such as the experiments of Tali's father and Admiral Xen rewrite plans are dangerous and can re-ignite the war. It is absolutely amazing to me that Legion decides -- or says he decides -- that he won't transmit the provacative data about the experiments. Concealing information from the whole Geth goes against the very nature of being Geth. It is a very significant step.

The most relevant fact bearing on the first question, on the odds faced by the Quarians, depends on whether they want to forcibly retake the home world -- but that is not necessary. As others have pointed out, the Geth have no only left the Quarian homeworld but they have cleaned it up from the toxins and contamination of the Morning War.

The question here is whether the Quarians can realistically be expected to live on a world surrounded by Geth space stations and whether the Geth can reasonably trust the Quarians to not attack them in the future while living in their midst.

#16
ISpeakTheTruth

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From what Leagion said the moment a Geth asked if it had a soul to the point war started wasn't exactly an instantanious thing. Multiple Geth had asked that question and Quarians tried to re-program them a few times before the war started that tells me that weeks if not month went by and the Geth still didn't attack them. Like I said the Geth should be taken out of their roles that would also mean any area where they would be able to launch attacks like if they were responsible for military purposes. Then start up a dialogue. There was no sign of aggresion only a want to understand.



By the way to say that any intelligent person would do what you would is a little close-minded. Just because someone sees a different path doesn't mean that they are not intelligent mearly that they see things in a different light.

#17
TudorWolf

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The main thing I have issue with is we only ever hear the Quarians' side of how it started, and given they were the ultimate losers they tend to vilify the Geth and thus they're going to bias the explanation somewhat.



Legion doesn't really add much beyond saying their version is much the same (which doesn't say a whole heap really) and it's implied that the Geth had asked if they had souls a few times by the point it actually concerned the Quarians.



Anyway, what I'm getting at is all we actually know is that the Geth "rebelled" (ie, acted in self defense against the aggressor Quarians), but we have no idea what they actually did. I'd think it unlikely they had ready access to weapons, they were built as manual labour after all. Also note that the Geth then kept to themselves, they didn't go chasing after the Quarians or anything. That speaks volumes to me; all they really did was defend themselves. If they were truly genocidal against the creators then I doubt they'd just let them run off to potentially regroup.



I'm with the Geth on this, at least as long as Bioware are cool enough to stay away from the "AI is inherently evil!" stereotype that sees so much use these days in sci-fi settings

#18
jbblue05

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Geth need to be eradicated from the Galaxy.

The Quarians are idiots.

But every species who lossed the homeworld to AI machines would do anything to reclaim it



I don't care if the Quarians attacked first the Geth killed billions of organics children included.

The Quarians evolved naturally the Geth had to be created.

Geth are not like organics don't apply their morality to ours.

They are machines nothing more

#19
GuardianAngel470

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The Quarians were stupid and insensitive to attack the Geth instead of giving them the chance to express their desires and try to reach a peace. Because of this, the Geth were justified in retaliating with Force.



However, while I believe their behavior was based on ignorance just as much as the quarians, the Geth had no justified reason for nearly wiping out their species from what we know at this point. that is what is called excessive force.



The Quarians are at fault for refusing to see the error of their ancestors' ways and largely maintain the animosity between the geth and the quarians.



The Geth are at fault for not attempting to come to an understanding after 300 years. This applies to both the quarians and the galaxy as a whole.

#20
PG420

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jbblue05 wrote...

Geth need to be eradicated from the Galaxy.
The Quarians are idiots.
But every species who lossed the homeworld to AI machines would do anything to reclaim it

I don't care if the Quarians attacked first the Geth killed billions of organics children included.
The Quarians evolved naturally the Geth had to be created.
Geth are not like organics don't apply their morality to ours.
They are machines nothing more


Oh ok, so by your logic if somebody tried to exterminate you and your entire species (machines or organic) you would just allow it because the people exterminating you are organic. The machine vs. organic part of the argument is irrelevant. By your logic, you should never fight back against an attacking army if they are organic even if your organic, that's rather absurd. Organic on Organic crime is just as terrible.

By the way, the Geth became sentient and started to learn that they were truly alive. That's evolution, just in a different way than what your thinking.

And the Geth may be machines, but you can certainly apply our morality to them. Legion isn't some cold calculating machine bent on killing all organic life. If you remember, he saved Shepherd's life on the derelict reaper. In fact they may have better morals than us. Legion states that the Geth have no intentions of harming their creators further. The Geth that attacked organics with Saren were a rouge group and their entire race can't be judged by the actions of a select few.

And I know you don't care, but the Quarians attacked first and brought their current situation upon themselves.

#21
Nightwriter

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I can understand both sides, and so find it difficult to argue one over the other.

I look at both the geth and the quarians and see imperfect creatures who made understandable mistakes.

#22
PG420

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GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The Quarians were stupid and insensitive to attack the Geth instead of giving them the chance to express their desires and try to reach a peace. Because of this, the Geth were justified in retaliating with Force.

However, while I believe their behavior was based on ignorance just as much as the quarians, the Geth had no justified reason for nearly wiping out their species from what we know at this point. that is what is called excessive force.

The Quarians are at fault for refusing to see the error of their ancestors' ways and largely maintain the animosity between the geth and the quarians.

The Geth are at fault for not attempting to come to an understanding after 300 years. This applies to both the quarians and the galaxy as a whole.


For all we know this war between the Geth and Quarians could have lasted decades and involved harsh or barbaric tactics from both sides. The Quarians certainly attempted to use excessive force, they would have completed a genocide of the Geth if they were able to, that much we know. Perhaps the Quarians intended to fight to the death and the Geth were forced to kill the majority of the population before the Quarians accepted they had no chance.  Basically, there are alot of unknowns about this war and therefore the Geth could have had no choice but to use excessive force. Its unfair to draw conclusions with such limited information.

By the way, the Geth have come to an understanding. They aren't holding a grudge against the Quarians, the Quarians are holding a grudge against them. The majority of the Geth aren't involved in fight organics, that is just a small portion who have been indoctrinated by the reapers. Really the Quarians are responsible for the beginning of the war and for the ongoing strife between the two factions.

#23
Foolsfolly

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I support the True Geth. The quarians over reacted and many are bent on genocide to take back their planet.....which race gets killed off is uncertain since I really doubt the Migrant Fleet can fight the geth and win.

#24
Schneidend

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Shandepared wrote...

We've had tons of arguments about them. The quarian/geth issue is second only to Cerberus and the Collector base. In any case I don't think the quarians did anything wrong when they tried to destroy the geth and I support any and all efforts to reclaim their homeworld. I do not regard machines as being alive.



Anatomy is a machine. It's just not made of synthetic materials.

Also, it doesn't take any support to politely ask for a planet back.

#25
Clover Rider

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Schneidend wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

We've had tons of arguments about them. The quarian/geth issue is second only to Cerberus and the Collector base. In any case I don't think the quarians did anything wrong when they tried to destroy the geth and I support any and all efforts to reclaim their homeworld. I do not regard machines as being alive.



Anatomy is a machine. It's just not made of synthetic materials.

Also, it doesn't take any support to politely ask for a planet back.

Boy he makes Geth sad:crying:.