221 réponses à ce sujet

[Katamariguy]

Inverness Moon wrote...

If Bioware includes such a cute scene as this in Mass Effect 3, I will love them and the geth for all eternity.

Modifié par Katamariguy, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Moiaussi]

lost lupus wrote...

thats because it was a command which the geth "ignored"
thats because being self aware they can choose to folow whatever commands they want

thats not a safe guard agaisnt things going rouge
 indepent hardware locked systems that trigger internal EMP's are a safe guard
hard wired remoted detnonted symtex attched to their blue box is a safe guard

a safe guard must be independent to effective

You should read Asimov's robot novels, particularly regarding the laws of robotics, which are hardwired and thus not quite so easily overcome.

There are also 'soft' safeguards. Human moral codes are, for the most part, not hard wired but are taught, yet the vast majority of humans are basicly good. We have crime, but for the most part do not commit anything more major than a traffic violation or jaywalking. That isn't so much 'because we are organics' as because they work and because we can see them working. The more we teach that they don't work, the weaker they are ....

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

No, she regards them as nothing more than machines. Her dialog makes this clear.

While that is correct, she also calls them AI's. Her attitude has nothing to do with them being inorganic. If they were bioengineered instead, it is a safe bet she would talk the same way. Her logic isn't based on them being machines, but on them being Quarian creations.

[mosor]

Shandepared wrote...


Well it determines what rights they may or may not have.

Power determines what rights something may or may not have. If you can't defend your rights, it's going to be taken away. Sentient or not. Besides, geth are toasters with a lot of power but without a single shred of empathy. Almost psychopathic in a sense. A very clear danger I say.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...


While that is correct, she also calls them AI's.

Which means nothing because an A.I. is not necessarily alive.

"You are equipment, not crew."

"Alive" is a different term than "Sentient." The definition of AI includes sentience. Declaring another sentient entity a 'non-person' is an old agruement that is brought up to exploit organics let alone non-organics (and no, that does not mean I am accusing you of being pro-slavery any more than slavers in the past could be accused of being pro-white slavery).

Setting convenient definitions and using semantic games should not be used as justifications for exploiting any sentient life.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

mosor wrote...


Power determines what rights something may or may not have. If you can't defend your rights, it's going to be taken away.

Yes, but politics factors into that and it will be easy to persuade the public to destroy the geth if we can remind them that the geth are not living beings.

And if someone else 'reminds' the Turians that Humans are not Turians? Or reminds any given race that another is different? That is 'perfectly ok?'

[mosor]

Shandepared wrote...

mosor wrote...


Power determines what rights something may or may not have. If you can't defend your rights, it's going to be taken away.

Yes, but politics factors into that and it will be easy to persuade the public to destroy the geth if we can remind them that the geth are not living beings.

That's not particularly hard to do.

Quarian homeworld, butchered
Eden prime, massacred
Citadel. Station severely damaged, alien fleet destroyed.

Everyone whose heard of the geth know they're a collective. There is going to be an uphill battle to prove that all geth are not the same, that there are 2 collectives. Thing about the geth that makes them dangerous is that they are a collective. Same with the rachni. Collectives make easy targets for the reapers since they don't have to waste time indoctrinating each individual.

Modifié par mosor, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

That's life in the universe.

You're a good kid, Moiaussi. Misguided and naive, but good at your core. Too bad there aren't more people like you... oh no, there are people like me!

Woot! Forget the Reapers, we are all obviously better off fighting among ourselves! Good thing the rest of the universe seems to disagree with you. The council races managed peace for millenia, yet for some reason you are convinced they must be enemies? There is a difference between naive and utterly paranoid.

Note that I still agree with maintaining a strong armed force, but there is a difference between guarding your back and stabbing backs. Personally I think you base your politics on too many RTS's.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

mosor wrote...


Power determines what rights something may or may not have. If you can't defend your rights, it's going to be taken away.

Yes, but politics factors into that and it will be easy to persuade the public to destroy the geth if we can remind them that the geth are not living beings.

So, as far as I can tell, to you personally it doesn't matter. You perceive them as a danger for the reasons Mosor points out and want them destroyed or at least perma-hacked as Adm. Xen suggests. And the question of the geth sentience is purepy that of swaying the general[ly ignorant and incompetent] public into the line of action you propose?



On a side note:

Katamariguy wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

If Bioware includes such a cute scene as this in Mass Effect 3, I will love them and the geth for all eternity.

I'll go "Wheeee, Zaeed, come over here! A toaster and a kitten, ain't that cute?"

[Moiaussi]

mosor wrote...

That's not particularly hard to do.

Quarian homeworld, butchered
Eden prime, massacred
Citadel. Station severely damaged, alien fleet destroyed.

Everyone whose heard of the geth know they're a collective. There is going to be an uphill battle to prove that all geth are not the same, that there are 2 collectives. Thing about the geth that makes them dangerous is that they are a collective. Same with the rachni. Collectives make easy targets for the reapers since they don't have to waste time indoctrinating each individual.

Really..... so why then do the politicans seem to be going back to a peace time economy so easily? Look at the Afghan war or Iraq. Every single solder killed is treated by the media as some sort of horrible tragedy (partly because even military leaders sell wars as bloodless these days). That is not even counting the costs of the wars and the political fallout from that.... (note I am not questioning the reasons for either war, just pointing out that they are not all that popular.

The Orthadox Geth are estimated to have a naval strength of 5000 to 10000 ships (per the codex). Shand snivels over losing 8 ships in saving the DA.

Yes, lets go pick fights. I am sure the costs will be immensely popular.

By the way, I think it would be rather hard to sell the populace on any Reaper based arguements, since the Council and Alliance have been denying the existance of the Reapers.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Since when? Don't use the Council as an example. If anything their history vindicates me, not you

Millenia of peace vindicate you how, exactly?

[mosor]

Moiaussi wrote...

The Orthadox Geth are estimated to have a naval strength of 5000 to 10000 ships (per the codex). Shand snivels over losing 8 ships in saving the DA.

All the more reason to neuter that threat, lest the reapers re-establish control.

Yes, lets go pick fights. I am sure the costs will be immensely popular.

Maybe the data from overlord, or admiral Xen research will keep those costs to a relative minimum.

By the way, I think it would be rather hard to sell the populace on any Reaper based arguements, since the Council and Alliance have been denying the existance of the Reapers.

But not the quarians.

Besides, sentinence is just a term humans use to justify their own exceptionalism over animals. It means nothing. Some computers have greater intelligence and reasoning skills than some animals. If I throw my computer in the garbage, no one will blink an eye. I toss my cat in the garbage,  there will be a world wide manhunt to indentify and lynch me.

Modifié par mosor, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

The Orthadox Geth are estimated to have a naval strength of 5000 to 10000 ships (per the codex). Shand snivels over losing 8 ships in saving the DA.

Without touching on anything else, this is a critical, repeating flaw in Mass Effect, and that is that numbers consistently do not add up. The story regularly goes in one direction or another, and the numbers supplied to supplement often do not make sense with the narrative of the story. Mass Effect's developers don't have a special team to keep their numbers aligned: it makes sense, and they try to avoid numbers in general, but every once in a while they stand out.

In literary cases such as Mass Effect, the story narrative by and large outweighs supplementary statistics. In such cases, the numbers must suit the story, not vice versa: in this case, 5000 to 10,000 ships doesn't tell what sort or size of ships, and we have to believe it matters.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

I seem to remembery an extremely violent war that resulted in the near total extinction of a sentient species only 300 years ago.

Involving a non-council member that was started by that member. It is not even a given that the Council had enough fleet strength to intervene at the time. The council choose peace instead of war, and somehow that is an arguement why they would be expected to attack humanity?

I remember more recently one of those "peaceful Council races" attacking a new race without provocation and then preparing to destroy them when they had the gall to defend themselves.

Pardon, but the Council stopped that member race from continuing the war. The Councellor representing that race even voted in favour of ending that war. It ended on relatively good terms and relatively shortly thereafter, that new race has ended up a full council member. By your logic, the council's actual failing was in not wiping humanity out when they had the chance.

I remember batarians launching slaver and pirate attacks on human colonies as the Council did nothing.

Regardless, stability in no way means the Council races are inherently peaceful. All it means is that they've defeated their competitors so severely that no one can make war on them. That's what the entire Council system is. It perfectly represents my position because it is one in which the powerful rule the weak.

I don't recall the Turian navy or Asari navy insisting on help with anti piracy partols within their space. One of the requrements of membership is being able to field a sufficient navy to hold your own. Moreover, Humanity wasn't even a member race yet. We merely had an ambassador on the Citadel.

And none of that offsets millenia of peace. The fact that they are capable of peace is well demonstrated.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

In any case I think it is possible that despite being only 5% of the geth programs, the heretics may by far represent the greater majority of geth militarization. After all, they don't need to devote resources to cleaning up quarian worlds or building dyson-spheres. All they are concerned with is building up their military and supplying it.

This is true. Although the True Geth industrial capacity must be gargantuan, their standing forces would be only limited to the always present threat of a Quarian surprize attack. Given the nature and shape of the Migrant Fleet though...

On the contrary, the Heretics are geared for jihad with the entire Galaxy, and although their fleet has been annihilated (along with the Council fleets) in the Battle of Citadel, they must've been restoring it rapidly over the past two years. Probably more rapidly than the Turians.

[Moiaussi]

mosor wrote...

All the more reason to neuter that threat, lest the reapers re-establish control.

The reapers never 'established' control. 5% does not constitute control.

Maybe the data from overlord, or admiral Xen research will keep those costs to a relative minimum.

Spoken like a true air force general. "The war will be quick and painless and they will surrender and love us" ... Unless of course it doesn't go that way, in which case the war is long and extremely costly. Maybe with what we learn about indoctrination, we can use similar techniques not only on other organic races, but on own people too!  Where does such logic end?

But not the quarians.

Besides, sentinence is just a term humans use to justify their own exceptionalism over animals. It means nothing. Some computers have greater intelligence and reasoning skills than some animals. If I throw my computer in the garbage, no one will blink an eye. I toss my cat in the garbage,  there will be a world wide manhunt to indentify and lynch me.

Convincing the quarians isn't so hard, but I don't think they have 5000 to 10,000 ships...  And it is pretty clear that the Geth are more intelligent than housecats. Certainly they are more philospohical.