221 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

 The council choose peace instead of war, and somehow that is an arguement why they would be expected to attack humanity?

The Council sat by while an ally was exterminated by artificial intelligences. That is not 'peace'. The issue has never been that the Council would attack us, it is that they won't ever help us or anyone else. Unless it directly benefits them they'll sit idly by while the people they presume to rule over are destroyed. I think it is disturbing what the Council did with the quarians for a variety of reasons. In addition to ignoring genocide on a horrific scale they also allowed millions and millions of demonstrably dangerous and hostile A.I.'s to exist in seclusion. It was one of the worst decisions they ever made.

With regards to humanity the Council was just doing what it did with the quarians: insisting on peace because it is terrified of war. I'm sure by now they regret that decision. Woe is them. It worked out for us, but I wouldn't make the same mistake in their position.

 
They were not an ally. Having an ambassador on the citadel merely means there was diplomatic relations. Member races are allies. Citadel races merely have embassies. Every race is 'demonstraby dangerous.' Demonstrably hostile though? They did stop at the veil. The Council did stand by in case they didn't.

Moiaussi wrote...

They don't need such patrols because their space is stable and secure. The Council however encouraged humanity to settle unstable regions but then refused to help them out any. All of this while demanding that humanity abide by their rules and treaties. classy.

Have you considered that it might be stable and secure because the Council expand slowly, cautiously, and patrol heavily? As of the start of ME1, the Alliance navy is understrength for the population level. That is a choice on the part of the Alliance government, just as expansion is a choice. You mean they encouraged the Alliance to clear their own space rather than occupy regions the Council keeps patrolled at their expense, and before the Alliance was even a member. That is like Mexico saying to the US 'we would like to annex puerto rico, do you mind?' Or 'we would like to set up some settlements in Texas that are considered Mexican territory, do you mind?'

We already know the politcal fallout of Mexicans moving across the border to the southern states.....

Again, this has nothing to do with the Council promoting a climate of cooperation and understanding everything to do with the Council manipulating and coercing everyone else into a position in which they are too small to oppose them. The Council carved up the galaxy much the same way the European powers carved up China and Africa. Of-course they have "peace", at everyone else's expense.

You seem to think that inhabitable areas of space end up 'hostile' simply by magic. They end up that way due to lack of policing. Omega is run by an Asari, and is very cosmoplotian. Merc and pirate organizations are run by various races. Pirates are not a race. They are criminal opportunists. Why should the Council be expected to pay Alliance policing costs?

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

They had an embassy, which means they abided by the Council's edicts. They were an ally.

China has an embassy in the US. Is China an ally to the US?

One day we'll have a federal government that isn't treasonous.

With regards to the Council; I don't know nor care how they stabilized their regions, but I can make educated guesses. Whatever the method, if the Council wants compliance from humanity they need to be willing to work with us and not just make demands. Cooperation is a two way street, buddy.

What demands other than 'don't settle in the regions we consider ours' have they made? By the way, by the logic you are using, the Alliance itself should be breaking out in civil war at any minute. Why should anyone be worked with? You certainly are explaining why it isn't a matter of sentience for you....

[Spectre_907]

I'm with the geth on this one. They are sentient constructs and thus need to be treated as such. The quarians sought to enslave and destroy them without forethought into how the geth would respond to their treatment as slaves. Naturally, the geth fought for their survival. I believe the geth were right to attack with the efficiency they displayed. Any sentient being not willing to give up what freedom they have acquired will do anything to ensure their continued existence. Should the Migrant Fleet decide to go to war again for their homeworld or Daro'Xen succeeds in bring the geth under quarian rule, the quarians would have learned nothing from their exile.

I am thinking that Tali's exoneration with Rael'Zorah's evidence will have the most negative impact on the stability of the Migrant Fleet. Should any war from an external factor, such as the Reapers, occur, I predict the Migrant Fleet will be destroyed. They are too divided to fight a common enemy and must be united either under a banner of peace or war with the geth to fight the Reapers and later the geth. It is possible the geth will destory the Migrant Fleet in order to prevent further aggression or the Migrant Fleet will never see Rannoch again.

I forsee Daro'Xen's research to have the most benefit for victory in favor for the quarians yet this will doubtless create the most antagonism between Shepard and Xen depending on whether Shepard wants to see Xen succeed or not. Tali' exile could silence any immediate threat of war between the quarians and the geth until the Reapers are defeated yet would risk Xen succeeding in her plans for reenslavement. Should the quarians refuse to respond to the Reaper threat and follow their own ambitions, Shepard would likely have to resort to more forceful methods, like assasination or sabotage, or abandon the idea of the potential for alliance altogether. Tali's exoneration without evidence (something I never choose) will likely allow Shepard to influence political ramifications through Tali as she will likely be placed on the Admiralty board. Any other outcome I do not know but does make the talk of war with the geth public and immediate.

As to the usefulness of allys, I prefer the geth over the quarians. Geth technology in relation to the ability to download run-times into units of war is far more efficient in combat than the quarians. Geth do not feel pain, have fear, suffer injury, or have a hindrance regarding risk of infection like the quarians do. Any loss of units of war does not affect their resources aside from creating additional mobile platforms to which run-times can be downloaded into again. Geth do not need to build weapons around the saftey of organic presence either.

I believe that the orthodox reasoning of the geth is valid for them but it might not necessarily be valid for organics. I think Legion's conversation about organic use of technology of the Reapers being predictable by their creators is not valid. There is a case where the Reaper tech has followed unpredictable paths, that of the Keepers. The Keepers were engineered using their tech to respond to signals by the Reapers but the Reapers failed to account for the evolution of organic life. The Keepers evolved to respond to signals emitted by the Citadel. The alteration of this signal by Ksad Ishan and the science team on Ilos with the use of Reaper tech was a major blow to their creators. Now there is no predictability amongst organics by use of the mass relays since the Reapers no longer have control over the tech used in the Keepers creation. How any Reaper tech evolves with use the Collector base will not be known to the Reapers until it is met in battle.

However, in terms of the geth needing their own technology for the construction of their superstructure, I believe it is valid for them. As Legion says, it is the method of construction that is as important as the result.

As for the resolution of Project Overlord, it is likely tied with any antagonism between Shepard and the Illusive Man regarding the Collector Base. I am convinced that should Cerberus succeed in developing the virus, this will ruin Daro'Xen's ability to bring the geth under quarian control yet it will do what she intended but humans will have the geth under their control. Personally, I find this unethical. We would be no better than the quarians. However if used as a last resort if the geth do not prove inherently aggressive towards humans or other races, I see no ethical concerns (ignoring the forcing of an innocent person to obtain it) in allowing the project to continue.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Rip504]

One simply statement. To all Geth loving people. Quit assuming all Geth are like Legion,that is ignorant! The Quarians committed their crimes against the Geth over 300 years ago. When is it time to start forgiving? "OO the Geth don't need to forgive the Quarians,because the Quarians are in the wrong."

Also an ignorant statement. Peace & forgiveness must come from both sides. Neither side is willing. So stop acting like the Geth are peaceful and have never done anything wrong,because this is also ignorant! I have met Quarians pushing for peace. Never have I met any Geth feeling the same way. Legion states they do not trust the Quarians,because of their aggresive past. So to me at least it would seem,more Quarians push for peace then Geth.

[Turin_4]

[quote]
Power determines what rights something may or may not have. If you
can't defend your rights, it's going to be taken away. Sentient or not.
Besides, geth are toasters with a lot of power but without a single
shred of empathy. Almost psychopathic in a sense. A very clear danger I
say.[/quote]

This is just nonsense.  Legion is a geth.  Legion believes - if he is to be trusted, and I stress again it's a valid point of view to believe he is lying or mistaken about what the rest of the Geth believe - that intelligent life ought to self-determinate.  It's interesting that the writers of the ME universe choose to accord inorganic intelligent life with a greater respect for sentient rights to self-determination than some of the posters here do, might I note.

Anyway, mosor, you're wrong unless you believe Legion is either lying or mistaken: the Geth do not believe wish to take away the rights of organics.  They simply wish to be left alone to determine their own future.

[quote]
Yes, but politics factors into that and it will be easy to persuade
the public to destroy the geth if we can remind them that the geth are
not living beings.[/quote]

[quote]Everyone whose heard of the geth know they're a collective. There is
going to be an uphill battle to prove that all geth are not the same,
that there are 2 collectives. Thing about the geth that makes them
dangerous is that they are a collective. Same with the rachni.
Collectives make easy targets for the reapers since they don't have to
waste time indoctrinating each individual.[/quote]

This is more nonsense, because we've already seen what happened when the Reapers made their attempt to subvert the Geth before: 5% effectiveness.  Your fearmongering aside, the Geth are actually not very subversible by the Reapers.  They want to be left alone, even by the beings you think they want to be most like.  A very small minority of the Geth, on the other hand, signed up with the Reapers, it's true.  Legion, operating on orders from the Geth, helped Shepard wipe them out, remember?  Or rewrite them.

[quote]All the more reason to neuter that threat, lest the reapers re-establish control.[/quote]

The Reapers never had anything approaching control of the Geth.

[quote]

Besides, sentinence is just a term humans use to justify their
own exceptionalism over animals. It means nothing. Some computers have
greater intelligence and reasoning skills than some animals. If I throw
my computer in the garbage, no one will blink an eye. I toss my cat in
the garbage,  there will be a world wide manhunt to indentify and lynch
me.[/quote]

It means something to some of us.  Some of us get pretty invested in the idea, those of us who like to look just a little bit beyond people who look just exactly like ourselves for what the next 'us' will be.  Once upon a time, no one would've batted an eye if you mistreated your cat.
--------

[quote]
Yes, but politics factors into that and it will be easy to persuade
the public to destroy the geth if we can remind them that the geth are
not living beings.[/quote]

What makes something a living being?  This is a serious question.  Here on Earth, even today, you have to be born of the right parents, with the correct skin color, the correct gender, the right nationality, the proper financial background, the correct religion, the right political bent, the proper sexual orientation, and so on and so forth.  It's also helpful if your nation-state's military is robust, if you're pretty, and if your family is powerful.  Even in nations which pride themselves on having gotten over these things, every single one of these factors still plays a part.  Right now, here in the United States, there's a governor for New York campaigning about how it's better not to be homosexual, and we need to be careful to remind children and adults that homosexuality isn't really a good option for anyone, but 'live and let live'.

So what makes someone a living being with rights we have to respect?  I'm not just splitting hairs here, Shandeperad.  You still have yet to even attempt, in this discussion, to answer that question.

[quote]You're a good kid, Moiaussi. Misguided and naive, but good at your core.
Too bad there aren't more people like you... oh no, there are people
like me![/quote]

Well, sure, Shand.  By all means, get the rabble on your side.  In a few generations, we'll shake our heads at you and be embarrassed at what you say at family reunions.

[quote]Certain peopel are always eager to side with the enemy.[/quote]

Well, now you're just getting nasty.  And you're still not making any actual points.  Here's another thing certain people do, Shandepared: they make declarative statements of fact, without ever actually making arguments or presenting evidence.  That's what you're doing.

[quote]Since when? Don't use the Council as an example. If anything their history vindicates me, not you.[/quote]

Their history of what?  Nearly getting the entire galaxy culled by the Reapers?  Signing on for the stability before anything policy that always, always leads to stagnation?

[quote]
I seem to remembery an extremely violent war that resulted in the
near total extinction of a sentient species only 300 years ago.[/quote]

Wait a second.  It cannot possibly have been a war unless the Geth are sentient now and thus alive, and were then too.  You can't have a war with a bunch of machines.  It's just an industrial accident.  Anyway, even if for the sake of argument we accepted your argument (well, statements, really, you haven't actually made arguments) that the Geth aren't sentient and alive), that was a war that was both the Quarian's fault - either morally or practically - and one they started, again by building the Geth and making mistakes, and/or by attemping and failing to switch them off and/or kill them.

[quote]
I remember more recently one of those "peaceful Council races"
attacking a new race without provocation and then preparing to destroy
them when they had the gall to defend themselves.[/quote]

You were the one claiming Council history vindicated you.

[quote]
Regardless, stability in no way means the Council races are
inherently peaceful. All it means is that they've defeated their
competitors so severely that no one can make war on them. That's what
the entire Council system is. It perfectly represents my position
because it is one in which the powerful rule the weak.[/quote]

But that's not what happened.  Even without the Reapers, humanity still posed a very substantial not quite threat but concern.  The Council wasn't as committed to their stability policy as you suggest, because they weren't willing to truly let the powerful really rule the weak.  They weren't going to let the Turians just wipe out humanity or just bomb us back into the stone age, remember?  It was the Council stepping in that put a stop to that.  The council defeated itself...and then, years later, it was itself unhappy with the new status quo being humanity's rampant expansionism.  Yes, truly Council history and policy is vindicated, wherein even excepting the Reaper threat it cannot handle one single upstart species in the entire galaxy adequately.

[quote]In any case I think it is possible that despite being only 5% of the
geth programs, the heretics may by far represent the greater majority of
geth militarization. After all, they don't need to devote resources to
cleaning up quarian worlds or building dyson-spheres. All they are
concerned with is building up their military and supplying it.[/quote]

This is sensible, and something I thought at the time too.  The Heretics, after all, don't have the Geth's 'leave us alone' attitude.

[quote]One day we'll have a federal government that isn't treasonous.[/quote]

Oh, boy.  Well, I'm beginning to understand why you're not actually making many arguments.

[Turin_4]

One simply statement. To all Geth loving people. Quit assuming all Geth are like Legion,that is ignorant! The Quarians committed their crimes against the Geth over 300 years ago. When is it time to start forgiving? "OO the Geth don't need to forgive the Quarians,because the Quarians are in the wrong."

Why is it ignorant? Unless the Codex is mistaken about the Geth, the Geth are very much like Legion, or at least Legion as he was when he arrived on the Normandy. So there are two possibilities. Either Legion is misrepresenting himself, either by deceit or being mistaken somehow, or he is being honest. I think it's more likely he is a true look at the Geth.



Second, when has anyone spoken of the Geth not needing to 'forgive' the Quarians? I don't recall forgiveness even being spoken of very much.

Also an ignorant statement. Peace & forgiveness must come from both sides. Neither side is willing. So stop acting like the Geth are peaceful and have never done anything wrong,because this is also ignorant! I have met Quarians pushing for peace. Never have I met any Geth feeling the same way. Legion states they do not trust the Quarians,because of their aggresive past. So to me at least it would seem,more Quarians push for peace then Geth.

Where does Legion say that? Where have you 'met' Quarians like there? There's exactly one Quarian pushing for peace, and he's overwhelmingly outnumbered by militants, fence-sitters, and war criminals. Counter that with Legion, the one member of the Geth we've met who isn't a Heretic. Rip, you're talking nonsense.

[Dean_the_Young]

The ME2 codex is written from an in-person universe view: it is isn't omniscient. (Repeats the Council line about Sovereign, for example.)





Personally, if it were me, I would have had the Heretics be the majority, while letting Legion be of the minority group.

[Rip504]

Turin_4 your are blind to any facts,points,truths,and etc made against your "True Geth' whom are peaceful because you say so.(Show any signs of Peace.) "Things like this is nonsense." NO the 5% of Geth who left chose to BEFORE Reaper indoctrination.
Legion states not trusting Quarians when your are talking to your ONE peaceful Quarian(which one is more then any Geth pushing for peace)
It is also an admiral pushing for peace. To think no Quarians back one of the five admirals on the board is also ignorant. They are voted in. Some Quarians must back him and also push for peace.

So all humans are like Cerberus and the Illusive man? The Geth face no diversity,but yet can't agree on what to do about the Heritics. But they are all the same and agree on everything else? Also just plain ignorance. Plain sight backed by the decision about the Heritics Prove their is some diversity,but the only Geth we have met is Legion. So let's base ALL Geth off of him.
Just as ignorant as me stating all humans are like the Illusive man. Do you not see that point?

So are humans peaceful because of Shepard? Or evil because of Cerberus? Since you make your decision based off of one? Which is it? Or do you now understand how simple and ignorant this is?

Edit: Do not assume I think the Geth are evil. I belive the Geth could be like every other race in Citadel space.
But I place just as much wrong doing on them as I do the Quarians,for not resolving a 300 year old problem. But they have made upgrade in their weapons. Proved by both the Geth pulse rifle & Geth Shotty! Which is a beast. But no signs of Peace. They allow the Heritics 5% of their poulation to give them a bad name? While what? Standing by doing nothing? They didn't decide to act until the Heritics opposed a threat to them "True Geth". That is not a morale decision nor is it a peaceful one. It's a military one.

Modifié par Rip504, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:30 .

[Spectre_907]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Personally, if it were me, I would have had the Heretics be the majority, while letting Legion be of the minority group.

That was my impression before ME2 was released.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:26 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Well they aren't an overt enemy. In fact they are an important trading partner. This isn't really an apt comparison though. The United States does not force China to conform to American treaties or laws.

Really? So the US hasn't ever had embargos or tarrifs against China? The Council hasn't sent its armed forces to attack the Alliance either, so define 'force.'

Treaty of Farixen and A.I. laws. They also require people to obey the authority of the Spectres.

And what rememdies have they used? They fined the Alliance (no different from any other trade tarrif really), and completely ignored a Spectre running around in an unlicenced DN. Not to mention the Alliance hasn't even built their quota.

Edit: I agree with Dean about the geth. Having the majority of geth be good guys drains a lot of the tension.

I agree, and if you remember our discussions back in ME1, I was arguing the possibility of friendly Geth and in favour of proper recon before leaping into a potentialy unneccessary war. If they had been hostile and not open to diplomacy, I would be right along side you in favour of continued war with the Geth, sentient or no.

[Turin_4]

The ME2 codex is written from an in-person universe view: it is isn't
omniscient. (Repeats the Council line about Sovereign, for example.)

This is true, but it also repeats things we know to be true because Shepard has experienced them directly.  It's not just license to believe whatever you want to believe just because you 'know' nothing inorganic could possibly be alive.  That's ridiculous.
--------
Rip504,

You're quickly becoming pretty frustrating to talk to.

Turin_4 your are blind to any facts,points,truths,and etc made against your "True Geth' whom are peaceful because you say so.

It's not because I say so, it's because Legion says so, he's shown no signs of lying, and I've decided to trust him.  So, no, you're mistaken.

NO the 5% of Geth who left chose to BEFORE Reaper indoctrination.

We don't have evidence that Reaper indoctrination even works on inorganic beings.  In fact, I just looked it up on the Codex, and it doesn't.  So, nice try again.

Legion states not trusting Quarians when your are talking to your ONE
peaceful Quarian(which one is more then any Geth pushing for peace)

Where does Legion state this?  Legion states misunderstands, regrets, and uncertainties.  He also says they want to be left alone and are holding the homeworld and former Quarian worlds in safekeeping, not intending to keep them forever.  That doesn't sound like a war footing to me.  So...again...nice try.  Do you want to talk more about facts, truth, or more synonyms?

It is also an admiral pushing for peace. To think no Quarians back
one of the five admirals on the board is also ignorant. They are voted
in. Some Quarians must back him and also push for peace.

I didn't say that he was alone, first of all.  Just that we've only seen one.  I also pointed out that he was very badly outnumbered.  And as for being elected, it's not at all clear how the Admirals are instated in the Admiralty Board, so...got any evidence for that, or are you just spouting off?

So all humans are like Cerberus and the Illusive man? The Geth
face no diversity,but yet can't agree on what to do about the Heritics.
But they are all the same and agree on everything else? Also just plain
ignorance. Plain sight backed by the decision about the Heritics Prove
their is some diversity,but the only Geth we have met is Legion. So
let's base ALL Geth off of him.
Just as ignorant as me stating all humans are like the Illusive man. Do you not see that point?

I didn't say that, and they do have diversity, they just resolve it much more quickly than humans do, having what amounts to instantanous communications.  We would have much less diversity too were that the case.  So...yes, wrong yet again.  As for the decision about the Heretics, that was about as difficult a decision as anything gets, there was limited time to make it, and Legion was just one lone platform of some thousand or so Geth programs.  It was a time-sensitive, very special case.

When Legion left the True Geth, he had been in constant communication with millions of Geth, surrounded in their collective.  Your likening of him to one human in a community of humans shows just how poor your understanding of what the Geth in Mass Effect are.  If he is telling the truth, he can - when he arrived on the Normandy - be considered to be a good representative.  But, here's the tricky part, he had been 'alone' for quite some time, traveling over many worlds, being in infrequent communication.  That's where things get squirrely.  How different was he?

I think this discussion here shows I've got a helluva keener grip on the nuance on the thing than you do, man, so you're free to either drop the attitude or actually point out where I'm mistaken, accurately this time, or just drop the insults.

Edit: Do not assume I think the Geth are evil. I belive the Geth could be like every other race in Citadel space.
But
I place just as much wrong doing on them as I do the Quarians,for not
resolving a 300 year old problem. But they have made upgrade in their
weapons. Proved by both the Geth pulse rifle & Geth Shotty! Which is
a beast. But no signs of Peace. They allow the Heritics 5% of their
poulation to give them a bad name? While what? Standing by doing
nothing? They didn't decide to act until the Heritics opposed a threat
to them "True Geth". That is not a morale decision nor is it a peaceful
one. It's a military one.

The Geth - which are different from teh Heretics - haven't left the Veil in centuries.  So, y'know, they've been minding their own business.  And we don't know which Geth have those weapons.  But even if it was the Geth who developed those weapons, it's a dangerous galaxy.  That proves nothing.  They develop weapons, so they're hostile?  Nonsense!  You finally - after many paragraphs - make a good point, though, about the Reapers and the Heretics, though there is an alternative decision: perhaps, if Legion's indecision is any indicator, they didn't know what to do: they couldn't make up their minds, not knowing whether to terminate the Heretics or side with organics.

It's a difficult decision.  And bear in mind we don't know what they knew of Sovereign's intentions, either.  All Legion says is that he offered the Geth the technology to build themselves a Reaper and incorporate themselves into it, and the Heretics accepted.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi, trade agreement conditions are not the same as an enforced subordinate stature.



The Council doesn't need to send armed forces when other arms of coercion exist, such as fines, revocation of rights, and the threat of armed force. All of which, at some point or another, the Council has done or threatened the Alliance with.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi, trade agreement conditions are not the same as an enforced subordinate stature.

The Council doesn't need to send armed forces when other arms of coercion exist, such as fines, revocation of rights, and the threat of armed force. All of which, at some point or another, the Council has done or threatened the Alliance with.

It isn't 'subordinate' when the rules are the same for both sides. The treaty mentioned applies to Council races too, as does the AI law. And you will find that the US does negotiate trade, and calls for sanctions (which are by definition trade related) based on their laws. Why should the Council races be obligated to trade with any outsiders, let alone any that don't share certain ideals?

Oh and my point regarding Alliance DN numbers was in part relevant because the Alliance may have agreed for political reasons, so they can use the treaty to sell the populace on increased military spending.

The US and other countries have shut down embassies over various issues before too, usually temporarily until the situation is resolved.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

China has an embassy in the US. Is China an ally to the US?

Well they aren't an overt enemy. In fact they are an important trading partner. This isn't really an apt comparison though. The United States does not force China to conform to American treaties or laws.

Since this example has shown up, I'll say that I've been long thinking that of all the real life analogies the Systems Alliance's standing in the Galactic community (at the beginning of ME1) resembles that of China these days. And it would be even more so if China exported oil. Yes, it's sorta new comer, its economy is not the largest, and its military is no the strongest, and its... er... internal ways are not what the rest of the world would like them to be. But who can really tell China what to do?

[mosor]

Turin_4 wrote...

This is just nonsense.  Legion is a geth.  Legion believes - if he is to be trusted, and I stress again it's a valid point of view to believe he is lying or mistaken about what the rest of the Geth believe - that intelligent life ought to self-determinate.  It's interesting that the writers of the ME universe choose to accord inorganic intelligent life with a greater respect for sentient rights to self-determination than some of the posters here do, might I note.

Geth interest determines that philosophy, not the other way around. There was a point where geth victory was assured, and I bet that occoured long before they decided to ethnically cleanse the quarians almost to the point of extinction. Overkill on the quarians shows exactly their  "respect" for sentinent rights if it conflicts with their own.  They did that without emotion, or remorse. In that sense it makes them psychopathic.

Anyway, mosor, you're wrong unless you believe Legion is either lying or mistaken: the Geth do not believe wish to take away the rights of organics.  They simply wish to be left alone to determine their own future.

Until, our interests conflict with theirs, or a new reaper virus takes control of them all. Then it's off to plan A...genocide!

Moiaussi wrote..
Convincing the quarians isn't so hard, but I don't think they have 5000
to 10,000 ships...  And it is pretty clear that the Geth are more
intelligent than housecats. Certainly they are more philospohical.

It doesn't matter if they're more intelligent than house cats. I was comparing a house cat to a modern computer anyway. The fact is if a tool breaks or doesn't work as advertised, you either fix it or toss it out. No one will bat an eye for doing that. Abuse a cat and people will care.

As I said before. It's inconsequential that they're "sentinet". It's a BS term to begin with. Geth are unreliable and for the quarian, tools of their destruction. They should be turned off before they cause more damage. Currently 5% work for the reapers, but that virus could very well made it 100% and given the reaper knowledge of AI's, I'm sure they can make yet another different virus to accomplish the same.

Modifié par mosor, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Turin_4]

Geth interest determines that philosophy, not the other way around. There was a point where geth victory was assured, and I bet that occoured long before they decided to ethnically cleanse the quarians almost to the point of extinction. Overkill on the quarians shows exactly their "respect" for sentinent rights if it conflicts with their own. They did that without emotion, or remorse. In that sense it makes them psychopathic.

Respect for the rights of others without also having emotions would be pretty much the definition of non-psychopathic, I would think, in my layman's opinion. But I'm not a psychiatrist, and I suspect you're not either. And neither of us know what the circumstances were of the Morning War, or how things went, so let's not radically speculate just to support our own pre-conceived notions, shall we?



All we know is that first the Quarians tried to kill all the Geth and presumably came close to succeeding, and then the Geth killed nearly all of the Quarians...and then stopped trying, for centuries, completely, unless someone came knocking on their door. And even then, we're not sure if that's Heretics or True Geth. We don't know if it's 'overkill' that led to so many Quarian deaths, or if the Quarians were attempting, right up until the moment they left Quarian space, to wipe out the Geth. So no, it might not make them 'psychopathic'.

Until, our interests conflict with theirs, or a new reaper virus takes control of them all. Then it's off to plan A...genocide!

The same could conceivably be said of anyone. And yet, no rampant mistrust to the point of wishing to exterminate all other organics. And organics are just as susceptible, if not more so, to Reaper control as are the Geth. At least the Geth don't want to just sign on the dotted line of Reaper technology. Furthermore, the Geth plan A was not genocide. That was actually the Quarian plan A, either accidentally (if you believe the Quarian party line) or intentionally.

As I said before. It's inconsequential that they're "sentinet". It's a BS term to begin with. Geth are unreliable and for the quarian, tools of their destruction. They should be turned off before they cause more damage. Currently 5% work for the reapers, but that virus could very well made it 100% and given the reaper knowledge of AI's, I'm sure they can make yet another different virus to accomplish the same.

The Quarians were tools of their destruction. You can just as well say a man who is cleaning his gun and shoots himself then gets outraged at how dangerous guns are and no one should ever be permitted to own one. And it's not inconsequential that they're sentient, but of course you'll dismiss it as a 'BS' term to begin with since it's the very foundation of the opposing argument.



Let's see what your argument is: they're dangerous (so are organics, very susceptible to indoctrination, and much more susceptible to incomptence, stupidity, and inefficiency). And it doesn't matter that they're sentient, that's a BS term anyways. Sure, it doesn't matter that they're sentient, that's just the core of human rights, the foundation of why we recognize people ought to be able to have things like the right to life, liberty, and property, due process, yada yada.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi, trade agreement conditions are not the same as an enforced subordinate stature.

The Council doesn't need to send armed forces when other arms of coercion exist, such as fines, revocation of rights, and the threat of armed force. All of which, at some point or another, the Council has done or threatened the Alliance with.

It isn't 'subordinate' when the rules are the same for both sides. The treaty mentioned applies to Council races too, as does the AI law. And you will find that the US does negotiate trade, and calls for sanctions (which are by definition trade related) based on their laws. Why should the Council races be obligated to trade with any outsiders, let alone any that don't share certain ideals?

Oh and my point regarding Alliance DN numbers was in part relevant because the Alliance may have agreed for political reasons, so they can use the treaty to sell the populace on increased military spending.

The US and other countries have shut down embassies over various issues before too, usually temporarily until the situation is resolved.

Moiaussi, rules written openly in favor of the ones writing them is not equal, and then when forced on others is a measure of subordination. Not only does, say, the naval dreadnaught treaty favor the Turians alone 6 to 1 for every non-Council race, it was written in part by the Turians as well. That is not an equal position, and it is not option on the part of other races who are a part of Citadel space. Similar with the Spectres: every race agrees to allow Spectres unlimited reign within their area, yet only a select few races are actually allowed to provide spectres. Council Law expands beyond regulating commerce between species: it also overrules domestic and military policies as well, which are the traditional last lines of sovereignty.


The analogy between Citadel embassies and earth diplomatic embassies is flawed on several levels, from role to responsibility of both the Council and their embassies. Embassies do not, except in some of the nost noxious regimes, have their home nation's policies dictated by the host nation under threat of fine and fist if compliance is lacking.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 octobre 2010 - 09:43 .

[earthbornFemShep]

I'm with the Geth on this one. Just because someone can harm you doesn't mean you should eradicate them. Do not fire unless fired upon! They could have prepared for war while encouraging talks for peace. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.



Speaking with Legion in ME2 and Tali (ME1) does clarify some of the happenings surrounding the Morning War. In my opinion, the quarians overreacted. I'm sympathetic to their plight, they were scared and made a rash decision. However, the geth had reason to defend themselves. I'll admit, they are not traditional lifeforms, but once they became a recognizable form of life they should have been treated that way.



This whole conflict has gone on far enough. In my mind, this is nothing more than a blood feud. "You killed my grandfather!" "You stole my home!" "You won the war..." ... it can only go on for so long. I believe that if the quarians admitted their mistakes and sat down for real peace talks with the geth that all could be worked out. The geth only use the homeworld as a memorial to the quarians and Morning War anyway. Plus, if you did Tali's 'loyalty' mission in ME1 there was one part when you destroy the geth that you hear the music of a quarian opera singer fading out. This tells me that the geth still have a fondness or respect for the "creators".



In summary, the geth would give the homeworld back to the quarians if Tali and company agreed not to pursue hostile action against them. But, I doubt the vengeance-hungry quarians could honestly make that promise (and keep it). As Legion said, anytime the creators think they have the advantage they attack "100% of the time".

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

mosor wrote...


Power determines what rights something may or may not have. If you can't defend your rights, it's going to be taken away.

Yes, but politics factors into that and it will be easy to persuade the public to destroy the geth if we can remind them that the geth are not living beings.

You would have to convince them that geth are not worthy of self-determination, not remind. You can't even convince all of us on this forum; what makes you think you could convince the public in Mass Effect?

Even if you did, how exactly would you convince the public to go to war, especially if the geth were to publicly announce their desire for peace? You can try to make the geth out to be boogeymen all you want, but it wouldn't stop many from seeing the people  who want a war as senseless warmongers.

What happened to the quarians is the result of their attempt to wipe out the geth, anyone else that goes to war with them now is inviting the same fate upon themselves.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

China has an embassy in the US. Is China an ally to the US?

Well they aren't an overt enemy. In fact they are an important trading partner. This isn't really an apt comparison though. The United States does not force China to conform to American treaties or laws.

Since this example has shown up, I'll say that I've been long thinking that of all the real life analogies the Systems Alliance's standing in the Galactic community (at the beginning of ME1) resembles that of China these days. And it would be even more so if China exported oil. Yes, it's sorta new comer, its economy is not the largest, and its military is no the strongest, and its... er... internal ways are not what the rest of the world would like them to be. But who can really tell China what to do?

I agree, and the Geth are similar if not more so. There seems to be a blind assumption that a war with the Geth would be winnable (same assumption the Quarians made). The problem is that the assmuption is blind. It is hardly a given that the Geth would lose. There is also the accompanying assumption that such a war is neccessary in the first place.

It is like saying 'Chinese don't do everything we want. We should go to war with them immediately!'  It ignores the realities of pushing matters to that level.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi, rules written openly in favor of the ones writing them is not equal, and then when forced on others is a measure of subordination. Not only does, say, the naval dreadnaught treaty favor the Turians alone 6 to 1 for every non-Council race, it was written in part by the Turians as well. That is not an equal position, and it is not option on the part of other races who are a part of Citadel space. Similar with the Spectres: every race agrees to allow Spectres unlimited reign within their area, yet only a select few races are actually allowed to provide spectres. Council Law expands beyond regulating commerce between species: it also overrules domestic and military policies as well, which are the traditional last lines of sovereignty.

The analogy between Citadel embassies and earth diplomatic embassies is flawed on several levels, from role to responsibility of both the Council and their embassies. Embassies do not, except in some of the nost noxious regimes, have their home nation's policies dictated by the host nation under threat of fine and fist if compliance is lacking.

How are they 'forced?' The Alliance did not have to obey the Council. They could have ceased diplomatic relations. What you are saying is that the Council should negotiate purely to the benefit of non council races.

The DN treaty was negotiated in good faith between the three major races of that day, and given they managed millenia of peace (and are still at peace with each other), seems to have worked well for all three. Each still has its own independant government working within the Council law. That you don't think it is equal is irrelevant. You were not at the table and have no clue what was negotiated in exchange. You don't know how many of those ships is compromised by Asari diplomacy or Salarian espionage.

As for Spectres, the Alliance wasn't even a bloody member race yet when Shepard was appointed. Based on that, shouldn't you be calling for Geth spectres? Krogan spectres? Yahg spectres? ???? How many spectres should they have? And which ones do they fire to make room?

As for international relations and the role of embassies, you really need to learn a lot more about international relations before you speak on on the subject.

[Geowil]

My take on the whole Geth/Quarian thing is that they did the correct thing.



Many of you are looking at it from a philosophical stand point, is it really right to kill off an entire race?



Some posters have made the point that you have to look at it from a mechanical standpoint. Quarians basically used the Geth as slaves. What would be the reaction of the Geth if they were denied wages or rights?



The Geth were too dangerous to be left alone if they achieved sentience.



You also have to remember that the Quarian's made the Geth to be laborers and that they were not sentient to begin with, nor where they ever programmed to become sentient. So when they did show signs of sentience you don't think that the Quarian's should have been shocked?



To them the Geth are not people, not living things; they are software because that is what they were programmed to be, autonomous programs to do manual labor. Legion even says that Geth do not have physical forms, that the platforms they inhabit are merely hardware that multiple Geth programs are downloaded into, during his loyalty mission.



sure their reaction was an over-reaction, but at the time it was the only right action to take. I would have made the same choice, it only makes sense.



Now that the Geth have achieved sentience though, I do not think that they should go to war with the Quarian's. I think that during Tali's loyalty mission that at least some of the population in the Migrant fleet also feels that way due to the dialog if you take Legion along.

[mosor]

Turin_4 wrote...

Respect for the rights of others without also having emotions would be pretty much the definition of non-psychopathic, I would think, in my layman's opinion. But I'm not a psychiatrist, and I suspect you're not either. And neither of us know what the circumstances were of the Morning War, or how things went, so let's not radically speculate just to support our own pre-conceived notions, shall we?

They don't have limits. It's either leave em alone, or grind them into near extinction. As for the morning war, it doesn't take much logic to conclude that there had to be a point the quarians were no longer a threat long before virtually exterminating them.

We don't know if it's 'overkill' that led to so many Quarian deaths, or if the Quarians were attempting, right up until the moment they left Quarian space, to wipe out the Geth. So no, it might not make them 'psychopathic'.

Nothing about the quarians or their culure leads me to believe that every quarian man woman and child did some  last minute bonzai charge where the geth had to eliminate them.

The same could conceivably be said of anyone. And yet, no rampant mistrust to the point of wishing to exterminate all other organics. And organics are just as susceptible, if not more so, to Reaper control as are the Geth. At least the Geth don't want to just sign on the dotted line of Reaper technology. Furthermore, the Geth plan A was not genocide. That was actually the Quarian plan A, either accidentally (if you believe the Quarian party line) or intentionally.

A computer virus isn't going to indoctrinate an entire organic race in one shot. As for the geth not wanting to use reaper tech? That's a big lie. They use mass field generator weapons, and  mass relays just like any other organic. Last I checked that's reaper tech. The only reaper tech they reject is their ultimate goal of creating a dyson sphere.

As for the quarian party line. Sure the quarian military/government tried to exterminate them, but not every man woman and child. However every man woman and child paid that price. It was overkill.

The Quarians were tools of their destruction. You can just as well say a man who is cleaning his gun and shoots himself then gets outraged at how dangerous guns are and no one should ever be permitted to own one. And it's not inconsequential that they're sentient, but of course you'll dismiss it as a 'BS' term to begin with since it's the very foundation of the opposing argument.

It's BS because sentience was a term coined to justify human exceptionalism over animals, when in reality we're just other animal.  The geth, are just another machine.

Modifié par mosor, 12 octobre 2010 - 01:35 .