221 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

mosor wrote...

It's BS because sentience was a term coined to justify human exceptionalism over animals, when in reality we're just other animal.  The geth, are just another machine.

Pardon? You are as bad as Shand. If you are going to disregard definitions or make up your own, there is not much of a discussion.

[mosor]

Moiaussi wrote...

mosor wrote...

It's BS because sentience was a term coined to justify human exceptionalism over animals, when in reality we're just other animal.  The geth, are just another machine.

Pardon? You are as bad as Shand. If you are going to disregard definitions or make up your own, there is not much of a discussion.

It's just a science fiction term. It really has no validity other than to express how akin to humanity something is. Animal rights groups try to do the same with animals to get people to stop eating beef.  Basically this sentience crap is like people arguing about the nature of god, while I'm telling them there is no god.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi, rules written openly in favor of the ones writing them is not equal, and then when forced on others is a measure of subordination. Not only does, say, the naval dreadnaught treaty favor the Turians alone 6 to 1 for every non-Council race, it was written in part by the Turians as well. That is not an equal position, and it is not option on the part of other races who are a part of Citadel space. Similar with the Spectres: every race agrees to allow Spectres unlimited reign within their area, yet only a select few races are actually allowed to provide spectres. Council Law expands beyond regulating commerce between species: it also overrules domestic and military policies as well, which are the traditional last lines of sovereignty.

The analogy between Citadel embassies and earth diplomatic embassies is flawed on several levels, from role to responsibility of both the Council and their embassies. Embassies do not, except in some of the nost noxious regimes, have their home nation's policies dictated by the host nation under threat of fine and fist if compliance is lacking.[/quote]

How are they 'forced?' The Alliance did not have to obey the Council. They could have ceased diplomatic relations. What you are saying is that the Council should negotiate purely to the benefit of non council races. [/quote]I'm trying to remember the force, but I seem to recal hearing that part of the treaty ending the First Contact War was that Humanity was pressed to join the Citadel organization.

Regardless of that piece, the conditions of the Citadel Council to take part in the galaxy are of a dominant/subordinate nature on multiple levels, starting with recognizing the Council's right to overrule policy on multiple levels and ending at the Council's actual willingness to enforce it.

[quote]
The DN treaty was negotiated in good faith between the three major races of that day, and given they managed millenia of peace (and are still at peace with each other), seems to have worked well for all three. Each still has its own independant government working within the Council law. That you don't think it is equal is irrelevant. You were not at the table and have no clue what was negotiated in exchange. You don't know how many of those ships is compromised by Asari diplomacy or Salarian espionage.[/quote]'Good faith' is irrelevant to whether it was equitable, even handed, and who it favored. The Dreadnaught Treaty is classical power politics: treaties such as these are historically uniform in their intent and who they favor. The nature of the treaties is that they preserve a status quo in favor of those with the largest margins, preserving a power balance at low cost regardless of the economics and will of any member.

Arms treaties are classic 'soft' enforcers of dominance in favor of the current powers against the rest.

[quote]
As for Spectres, the Alliance wasn't even a bloody member race yet when Shepard was appointed. Based on that, shouldn't you be calling for Geth spectres? Krogan spectres? Yahg spectres? ???? How many spectres should they have? And which ones do they fire to make room?[/uote]OMG LOOK AT THE !!!????!!?!?!?!!???!!? marks!!!!!!1!!

Everyone's taking you entirely serious now.

I'd expect any Citadel Race to be allowed to provide Spectres, vote on matters affecting their own affairs, and be allowed to build and contribute forces relative to their will and desire to do so: while certain powers may dominate, I firmly believe that smaller voices need a forum and a vote that can matter. I'd expect an avenue for a redress of greivances against the highest powers that is not an assembly made up of those same highest powers. I would definitely expect an obligation to defend fellow members who are attacked, especially in the course of complying with the Citadel Council's own stated policies and intents.

I'd also expect an abomination such as the Spectres to never be an officially sanctioned arm of government, just as I'd expect groups like Cerberus to be brought to heel by the Alliance (or, better yet, never let off the leash in the first place).


[quote]
As for international relations and the role of embassies, you really need to learn a lot more about international relations before you speak on on the subject.[/quote]And yet you won't even deign to enlighten which part you disagree with.

Which part was it? That the US can't enforce cyberpolicy on China despite China having an Embasy? Is it that no nation claims a legal right to openly kill anyone of any position in another country with an embassy, and not expect any retribution or retaliation?

[GuardianAngel470]

Moiaussi wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

They had an embassy, which means they abided by the Council's edicts. They were an ally.

China has an embassy in the US. Is China an ally to the US?

One day we'll have a federal government that isn't treasonous.

With regards to the Council; I don't know nor care how they stabilized their regions, but I can make educated guesses. Whatever the method, if the Council wants compliance from humanity they need to be willing to work with us and not just make demands. Cooperation is a two way street, buddy.

What demands other than 'don't settle in the regions we consider ours' have they made? By the way, by the logic you are using, the Alliance itself should be breaking out in civil war at any minute. Why should anyone be worked with? You certainly are explaining why it isn't a matter of sentience for you....

Yes, China is an ally to the US. Does that mean we have signed military treaties with them? No. There are many more layers to global politics than both of you are acknowledging. Technically, any member of the UN is our ally simply because the main purpose of the UN is to maintain peace throughout the world. They are allies towards a common goal.

That doesn't mean that there are military treaties between say, the US and Iran and it doesn't even mean that those two groups necessarily want the same thing.

In regards to the Geth/Quarian war, the Quarians may have been allies to the Council species but that doesn't mean that there were military treaties signed between them and the turians. Likewise, that doesn't mean there weren't either, as it is never specified.

I think the best analog to the morning war would be the genocide in Rwanda. The UN didn't necessarily need to step in as I don't believe that the Rwandan government had formed any military alliances with the security council members, but it wasn't justified in sitting idly by while over 800,000 civilians were massacred. 

I don't think that the Council necessarily had an obligation to protect the quarians diplomatically, but I do believe that, like the UN, they had a moral and ideological reason to. If their purpose was to maintain peace throughout the Galaxy, then they failed in allowing the quarians to be wiped out almost entirely.

And to add insult to injury, instead of helping the quarians rebuild, like for instance the US and many other countries did when Haiti was hit by that earthquake, the council exiled them and forced them to wander the stars for 300+ years.

Where exactly is the famous Asari longsightedness? How come they couldn't see the risk the geth posed and how close the quarians were to extinction?

Honestly, I have come to the conclusion that this whole thing is just a plot device meant to create drama.

[Inverness Moon]

Geowil wrote...

Some posters have made the point that you have to look at it from a mechanical standpoint. Quarians basically used the Geth as slaves. What would be the reaction of the Geth if they were denied wages or rights?

That is flawed thinking. The geth are not organics so you can't expect them to behave like organics.

But more importantly, are you saying the quarians would have denied them compensation or rights if they had asked? That would be slavery.

mosor wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

mosor wrote...

It's BS because sentience was a term coined to justify human exceptionalism over animals, when in reality we're just other animal.  The geth, are just another machine.

Pardon? You are as bad as Shand. If you are going to disregard definitions or make up your own, there is not much of a discussion.

It's just a science fiction term. It really has no validity other than to express how akin to humanity something is. Animal rights groups try to do the same with animals to get people to stop eating beef.  Basically this sentience crap is like people arguing about the nature of god, while I'm telling them there is no god.

You can't just dismiss facts at your convenience (like the turian councilor). Sentience and sapience are quite relevant to this discussion. "I think therefore I am." The geth asked if they had souls on their own initiative, to me that clearly separates them from animals and lower lifeforms.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@Shandepared.

Why does it matter to you if the Geth are "really" sentient or not?

Well it determines what rights they may or may not have.

Moiaussi wrote...

Incorrect. She sees them as AI's but
feels that since the Quarians created them, that the Quarians have some
sort of divine right to treat them like slaves or puppets. Your wanting
an answer that fits your world view does not change what she actually
says.

No, she regards them as nothing more than machines. Her dialog makes this clear.

I hate to sound trite, but you are both right. She says both. One is her justification for the other.

[GuardianAngel470]

Rip504 wrote...

I am not saying it is right,or what I think should happen. Just a random possibilty. (It was in another thread thats why I quoted it.) Also how is brainwashing different in one case from the other?

Remeber Admiral Xen considers the Geth to be programs. You do not feel bad about rewriting a program. She still considers them to be AI.(Still not agreeing with her.)

Legion is going to either rewrite or destroy the Heritics then rather just letting them be. The Heritics chose to help the Reapers even before having a new program installed by the Reapers. Why do you feel Legion has the right to make this decision? Never do they ask if the Heritics would ever want to rejoin the Geth.The Geth just make the decision for them,or destroy them.(Considering when faced with the decision to stay or leave the Heritics have left 100% of the time. Doesn't Legion make a statement similiar to this one about the Quarians? Why would they care about the Heritics and not care about making peace with the Quarians?) Ps. The Heritics left the True Geth before they accepted help from the Reapers. It was their decision to leave.

Edit:  If I do something Illegal and enjoy doing it. It is not your right to come and make me change my mind... What the Geth did was an act of war against the Heritics,they were not making a morale choice in my opinion. They realized the Heritics were a threat and needed to be dealt with.

The difference lies in the options tried already. In legion's case, he and his people already let the heretics go, no hard feelings (yup, I said it). The Heretics chose to rewrite Legion and his people, thus, the peace option already tried, force comes and saves the day.

The Quarians have never tried peace with the Geth, this is the whole cause of all their problems. They attacked first without giving the Geth the same chance that legion gave the heretics. To then go from a history of "shoot first, try peace later" to "Let's just rewrite them, it's easier than attempting peace" is where the problem lies.

[GuardianAngel470]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Geowil wrote...

Some posters have made the point that you have to look at it from a mechanical standpoint. Quarians basically used the Geth as slaves. What would be the reaction of the Geth if they were denied wages or rights?

That is flawed thinking. The geth are not organics so you can't expect them to behave like organics.

But more importantly, are you saying the quarians would have denied them compensation or rights if they had asked? That would be slavery.

mosor wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

mosor wrote...

It's BS because sentience was a term coined to justify human exceptionalism over animals, when in reality we're just other animal.  The geth, are just another machine.

Pardon? You are as bad as Shand. If you are going to disregard definitions or make up your own, there is not much of a discussion.

It's just a science fiction term. It really has no validity other than to express how akin to humanity something is. Animal rights groups try to do the same with animals to get people to stop eating beef.  Basically this sentience crap is like people arguing about the nature of god, while I'm telling them there is no god.

You can't just dismiss facts at your convenience (like the turian councilor). Sentience and sapience are quite relevant to this discussion. "I think therefore I am." The geth asked if they had souls on their own initiative, to me that clearly separates them from animals and lower lifeforms.

Technically, he is right Inverness Moon, but not in the way he means. Animals don't talk so we don't actually know if they go through the same thought process. We don't actually know whether they ask these sorts of questions.  So we don't actually know if our concept of sentience is really accurate or whether it is just something we use to soothe our consciences.

However, for the purpose of this debate let it be defined as Sentience/Sapience=Equal to humanity and other higher life forms and thus deserving of the same rights.

So the debate should be do we believe that the Geth are equal in capacity to ourselves and the other races in the galaxy? Do we think that they are equally capable of mistakes and genius as we are? Because the premise of sentience is flawed by our lack of knowledge, we need to assess whether or not the geth are our equals or are lesser forms of life.

Which is actually the other half of this debate, are the geth alive? If they are alive then they are worth at the very least the same rights as animals, and you work up from there.

[Moiaussi]

mosor wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

mosor wrote...

It's BS because sentience was a term coined to justify human exceptionalism over animals, when in reality we're just other animal.  The geth, are just another machine.

Pardon? You are as bad as Shand. If you are going to disregard definitions or make up your own, there is not much of a discussion.

It's just a science fiction term. It really has no validity other than to express how akin to humanity something is. Animal rights groups try to do the same with animals to get people to stop eating beef.  Basically this sentience crap is like people arguing about the nature of god, while I'm telling them there is no god.

As I said, if you don't know the term or its significance, then it makes for a very difficult discussion. It is not 'just a science fiction term', it has nothing to do with animal rights (since most animals are not sentient and the term animal rights does not apply to human rights), nor anything to do with the existance of god.

It has everything to do with cognitive studies and studies of thought processes and identity.

[Moiaussi]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Technically, he is right Inverness Moon, but not in the way he means. Animals don't talk so we don't actually know if they go through the same thought process. We don't actually know whether they ask these sorts of questions.  So we don't actually know if our concept of sentience is really accurate or whether it is just something we use to soothe our consciences.

However, for the purpose of this debate let it be defined as Sentience/Sapience=Equal to humanity and other higher life forms and thus deserving of the same rights.

So the debate should be do we believe that the Geth are equal in capacity to ourselves and the other races in the galaxy? Do we think that they are equally capable of mistakes and genius as we are? Because the premise of sentience is flawed by our lack of knowledge, we need to assess whether or not the geth are our equals or are lesser forms of life.

Which is actually the other half of this debate, are the geth alive? If they are alive then they are worth at the very least the same rights as animals, and you work up from there.

There are means of measuring memory and responses even when communication is limited or nigh impossible. And communucations isn't an issue with the Geth, so that concern seems like another red herring.... 

[Spectre_907]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Technically, he is right Inverness Moon, but not in the way he means. Animals don't talk so we don't actually know if they go through the same thought process. We don't actually know whether they ask these sorts of questions. So we don't actually know if our concept of sentience is really accurate or whether it is just something we use to soothe our consciences.

However, for the purpose of this debate let it be defined as Sentience/Sapience=Equal to humanity and other higher life forms and thus deserving of the same rights.

So the debate should be do we believe that the Geth are equal in capacity to ourselves and the other races in the galaxy? Do we think that they are equally capable of mistakes and genius as we are? Because the premise of sentience is flawed by our lack of knowledge, we need to assess whether or not the geth are our equals or are lesser forms of life.

Which is actually the other half of this debate, are the geth alive? If they are alive then they are worth at the very least the same rights as animals, and you work up from there.

My thoughts:
What is defined as a living entity to us organics? We only conceive living as something functional according to certain biological functions. Geth are non-living and will never be living in this light. I think a comparison does not exist; they do not eat, sleep, reproduce, age, or even die. But our conception of alive is skewered and entirely subjective for we are biological in nature and will judge the geth, and any sapient entity, according to our own biological subjectivity.

It would be prudent to first agree on a consistent definition of a living organism comparble to both organics and geth that is without bias to one specific sapient entity. However I do not think this can be done aside from considering pure sapience alone as what counts as a living thing. There is only sapience for the geth for they are only software capable of higher thought processes and (possibly) emotion and nothing else. If we are to agree that sapience alone is enough to judge the geth as living and that living entities are deserving of the same rights as sapient organic life, such as that of the right to self-determinate, than it is unethical for what the quarians did before the Morning War. Daro'Xen's research and Project Overlord also become unethical.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

And to add insult to injury, instead of helping the quarians rebuild, like for instance the US and many other countries did when Haiti was hit by that earthquake, the council exiled them and forced them to wander the stars for 300+ years.

Where exactly is the famous Asari longsightedness? How come they couldn't see the risk the geth posed and how close the quarians were to extinction?

The Geth rebell.

After the initial bloody battle ending in the Quarians' defeat, the powerful, the wealthy and the lucky of the Quarians flee to space and cease the action against the Geth.

They ask the Council to intervene.

The Council sends a couple of spectres, who determine that a military intervention by the Council races will take a high tool on their forces.

The Council offers the Quarians to settle elsewhere.

The Quarians decline, insisting on the Council's "help" to retake the homeworld.

The Council: "read my lips: NO!"

The Quarians: "F.U.!"

The Council: "F.U.!"

The remnants of the Quarians on the homeworld and colonies are disposed of by the Geth...

...or simply die of starvation due to inability to maintain themselves without the geth support.



And I bet their immune systems became frail long before the exile. With all their techie leanings they implanted themselves too much.

[Inverness Moon]

Spectre_907 wrote...

My thoughts:
What is defined as a living entity to us organics? We only conceive living as something functional according to certain biological functions. Geth are non-living and will never be living in this light. I think a comparison does not exist; they do not eat, sleep, reproduce, age, or even die. But our conception of alive is skewered and entirely subjective for we are biological in nature and will judge the geth, and any sapient entity, according to our own biological subjectivity.

It would be prudent to first agree on a consistent definition of a living organism comparble to both organics and geth that is without bias to one specific sapient entity. However I do not think this can be done aside from considering pure sapience alone as what counts as a living thing. There is only sapience for the geth for they are only software capable of higher thought processes and (possibly) emotion and nothing else. If we are to agree that sapience alone is enough to judge the geth as living and that living entities are deserving of the same rights as sapient organic life, such as that of the right to self-determinate, than it is unethical for what the quarians did before the Morning War. Daro'Xen's research and Project Overlord also become unethical.

First of all, life has multiple definitions. The geth are not alive according to the biological definition of life because they're synthetic.

Secondly, I think an unnecessary amount of importance the use of the word life. As far as I'm concerned, the geth are alive when they're capable of functioning and dead when they're not. It's no different than how the batteries in my remote are alive right now since they're working and dead when they're not. Shepard was dead after he got spaced and is alive now that Cerberus fixed him up. The biological definition of life is complicated simply because organic life is also complicated.

If you want to get philosophical you should talk in terms of sentience and sapience, not life.

And I do say that sapience alone grants them the same rights as sapient organics.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

And to add insult to injury, instead of helping the quarians rebuild, like for instance the US and many other countries did when Haiti was hit by that earthquake, the council exiled them and forced them to wander the stars for 300+ years.

Where exactly is the famous Asari longsightedness? How come they couldn't see the risk the geth posed and how close the quarians were to extinction?

The Geth rebell.

After the initial bloody battle ending in the Quarians' defeat, the powerful, the wealthy and the lucky of the Quarians flee to space and cease the action against the Geth.

They ask the Council to intervene.

The Council sends a couple of spectres, who determine that a military intervention by the Council races will take a high tool on their forces.

The Council offers the Quarians to settle elsewhere.

The Quarians decline, insisting on the Council's "help" to retake the homeworld.

The Council: "read my lips: NO!"

The Quarians: "F.U.!"

The Council: "F.U.!"

The remnants of the Quarians on the homeworld and colonies are disposed of by the Geth...

...or simply die of starvation due to inability to maintain themselves without the geth support.



And I bet their immune systems became frail long before the exile. With all their techie leanings they implanted themselves too much.

Yeah, there was almost zero factual basis for everything you just said. I read the codex, I read the books, NOWHERE does it say that the council sent spectres in, NOWHERE does it say that the Council offered the quarians settlement elsewhere, NOWHERE does it say that the quarians refused.

And the cause of the quarians' weak immune systems has been explained at least three times in-game. The fact that Starships have air filters that also kill bacteria means that the quarians, who have been wandering the stars for 300 years, no longer have strong immune systems. They weren't challenged enough aboard those ships because of the sterilization of the recycled air.

So pretty much everything you just said is wrong.

[GuardianAngel470]

Spectre_907 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Technically, he is right Inverness Moon, but not in the way he means. Animals don't talk so we don't actually know if they go through the same thought process. We don't actually know whether they ask these sorts of questions. So we don't actually know if our concept of sentience is really accurate or whether it is just something we use to soothe our consciences.

However, for the purpose of this debate let it be defined as Sentience/Sapience=Equal to humanity and other higher life forms and thus deserving of the same rights.

So the debate should be do we believe that the Geth are equal in capacity to ourselves and the other races in the galaxy? Do we think that they are equally capable of mistakes and genius as we are? Because the premise of sentience is flawed by our lack of knowledge, we need to assess whether or not the geth are our equals or are lesser forms of life.

Which is actually the other half of this debate, are the geth alive? If they are alive then they are worth at the very least the same rights as animals, and you work up from there.

My thoughts:
What is defined as a living entity to us organics? We only conceive living as something functional according to certain biological functions. Geth are non-living and will never be living in this light. I think a comparison does not exist; they do not eat, sleep, reproduce, age, or even die. But our conception of alive is skewered and entirely subjective for we are biological in nature and will judge the geth, and any sapient entity, according to our own biological subjectivity.

It would be prudent to first agree on a consistent definition of a living organism comparble to both organics and geth that is without bias to one specific sapient entity. However I do not think this can be done aside from considering pure sapience alone as what counts as a living thing. There is only sapience for the geth for they are only software capable of higher thought processes and (possibly) emotion and nothing else. If we are to agree that sapience alone is enough to judge the geth as living and that living entities are deserving of the same rights as sapient organic life, such as that of the right to self-determinate, than it is unethical for what the quarians did before the Morning War. Daro'Xen's research and Project Overlord also become unethical.

Personally, if you can say something is living a life, then it is alive.  If I can say that Legion is living a life in clear and well understood terms, then he is alive.

Living a life for me means making choices, acting out plans, interacting uniquely with their surroundings, and everything you would expect a living creature to do. To me the biology is irrelevant if those things are satisfied.

[darth_lopez]

despite my love of Tali and teh quarians as a race. they reacted Rashly, understandably but still rash. there was nothign that supported the idea that the geth would rebel. and the geth only acted to preserve their race. Due to the Fact we have already heard from legion that the geth prefer to avoid conflict with their makers and other organics lest they be attacked it's pretty sad to hear the quarians favor war and enslavement.

Obviously the Geth are evolving one day they may possibly be fully sentient they deserve the chance to prove themselves...  and while the Quarians plight is heartbreaking if they would loose this fear and open their minds conflict could be easily avoided. The answer to their current problem is diplomacy not war. and no self-aware race should be enslave Artificial or Organic.

[GuardianAngel470]

Moiaussi wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Technically, he is right Inverness Moon, but not in the way he means. Animals don't talk so we don't actually know if they go through the same thought process. We don't actually know whether they ask these sorts of questions.  So we don't actually know if our concept of sentience is really accurate or whether it is just something we use to soothe our consciences.

However, for the purpose of this debate let it be defined as Sentience/Sapience=Equal to humanity and other higher life forms and thus deserving of the same rights.

So the debate should be do we believe that the Geth are equal in capacity to ourselves and the other races in the galaxy? Do we think that they are equally capable of mistakes and genius as we are? Because the premise of sentience is flawed by our lack of knowledge, we need to assess whether or not the geth are our equals or are lesser forms of life.

Which is actually the other half of this debate, are the geth alive? If they are alive then they are worth at the very least the same rights as animals, and you work up from there.

There are means of measuring memory and responses even when communication is limited or nigh impossible. And communucations isn't an issue with the Geth, so that concern seems like another red herring.... 

I wasn't applying that principle to the geth so much as validating my opinion with it. It was more a way to convey that we don't know whether animals ask themselves that sort of question because they don't speak. How can you ask a question like that and have humans comprehend it when you have no language that humans understand?

The point was that the basis of the sentience argument where people used the "Am I alive, what is my purpose, do I have a soul" questions as justification for sentience is flawed because we don't even know if animals, a group excluded from the sentient species of earth (humanity) even ask themselves that question.  Our understanding of sentience is limited to ourselves. We are the only sentient species on earth and many believe in the universe. We have such a limited understanding of what it means to be sentient that there is no real way to determine if species along any spectrum of development are or aren't sentient until they are very developed.

Now one could argue that a tell tale sign of sentience is creative development, making and using tools advanced tools to manipulate one's surroundings. I'm not talking using a blade of grass to catch termites like chimps do in Africa, I'm talking about complex research and development. The geth have done this, with their assault rifles, their new mobile platforms, and their ships. 

Tali even states that they have created their own technology, so I say they are sentient.

[darth_lopez]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Technically, he is right Inverness Moon, but not in the way he means. Animals don't talk so we don't actually know if they go through the same thought process. We don't actually know whether they ask these sorts of questions.  So we don't actually know if our concept of sentience is really accurate or whether it is just something we use to soothe our consciences.

However, for the purpose of this debate let it be defined as Sentience/Sapience=Equal to humanity and other higher life forms and thus deserving of the same rights.

So the debate should be do we believe that the Geth are equal in capacity to ourselves and the other races in the galaxy? Do we think that they are equally capable of mistakes and genius as we are? Because the premise of sentience is flawed by our lack of knowledge, we need to assess whether or not the geth are our equals or are lesser forms of life.

Which is actually the other half of this debate, are the geth alive? If they are alive then they are worth at the very least the same rights as animals, and you work up from there.

There are means of measuring memory and responses even when communication is limited or nigh impossible. And communucations isn't an issue with the Geth, so that concern seems like another red herring.... 

I wasn't applying that principle to the geth so much as validating my opinion with it. It was more a way to convey that we don't know whether animals ask themselves that sort of question because they don't speak. How can you ask a question like that and have humans comprehend it when you have no language that humans understand?

The point was that the basis of the sentience argument where people used the "Am I alive, what is my purpose, do I have a soul" questions as justification for sentience is flawed because we don't even know if animals, a group excluded from the sentient species of earth (humanity) even ask themselves that question.  Our understanding of sentience is limited to ourselves. We are the only sentient species on earth and many believe in the universe. We have such a limited understanding of what it means to be sentient that there is no real way to determine if species along any spectrum of development are or aren't sentient until they are very developed.

Now one could argue that a tell tale sign of sentience is creative development, making and using tools advanced tools to manipulate one's surroundings. I'm not talking using a blade of grass to catch termites like chimps do in Africa, I'm talking about complex research and development. The geth have done this, with their assault rifles, their new mobile platforms, and their ships. 

Tali even states that they have created their own technology, so I say they are sentient.

if i may interject with what i understood sentiency to be? Simply
being 1)Self-Aware, 2)Autonomous, 3)capable of manipulating the
environment in sophisticated ways. 4)Higher intelligence(at least
capable of Algebraic Problem Solving). 5)Written Language(digitally
stored or physically stored).

By self aware i mean Knowing...what
we are and having a cultural identity. Dogs and other animals are not
sentient because they have no cultural identity. They Cannot manipulate
their environments in the same way we can. Most if not all other species
lack the capacity for Algebraic Problem solving and all lack written
language. We Are Sentient because we have these things every last one.

the geth are similar In that they do have at least the start of a cultural identity
They Can definately do algebra They have manipulated their environments
(note artrificial planet spoken of by Legion and Legion himself) They
have a Digital language created by the quarians granted but a language
none-the-less that can be stored physically or digitally. and More
importantly They have a desire to Make their own future which probably goes into some part of being self-aware.

sorry to interupt just thought laying down some really simple grounds for sentiency might be a good idea.

[CrimsonSpinach]

Quarians created Geth for menial tasks (beasts of burden, etc). When the Geth, who had no identity/worth, began to gain self-awareness, Quarians tried to eradicate them, but (understandably) Geth fight back.



It's hard to feel sorry for the Quarians. It's basically Ye Olde Christian mindset: you're questioning me? DIE!



(Sorry to bring religion into it, but it's the only comparison that came to mind)

[GuardianAngel470]

CrimsonSpinach wrote...

Quarians created Geth for menial tasks (beasts of burden, etc). When the Geth, who had no identity/worth, began to gain self-awareness, Quarians tried to eradicate them, but (understandably) Geth fight back.

It's hard to feel sorry for the Quarians. It's basically Ye Olde Christian mindset: you're questioning me? DIE!

(Sorry to bring religion into it, but it's the only comparison that came to mind)

I started a thread on that premise (minus the religion) several months back. 13+ pages of back and forth. It seemed to really matter to some people.

[Turin_4]

They don't have limits. It's either leave em alone, or grind them
into near extinction. As for the morning war, it doesn't take much logic
to conclude that there had to be a point the quarians were no longer a
threat long before virtually exterminating them.

You don't know this.  You don't know the circumstances of what went on in the Morning War, so it would be nice if you'd stop talking as though you did.  As for what it doesn't take much logic to conclude, it doesn't take much logic to conclude that urban war using possibly WMDs in close quarters combat can get extremely deadly and extremely catastrophic without one side necessarily having an enormous advantage over the other.  Just as a possibility.  We don't know.

And as for what's happened since, we know that even hundreds of years later, the Quarians still, if the Admiralty Board is any representative indicator, war against the Geth using criminal means, some would say.  So is it really so unreasonable, given that the Geth watch organics, that they leave them alone?  No.  So you ought to drop this psychopathic nonsense, however attractive you find the idea personally.  You don't have enough information to speculate.

Nothing about the quarians or their culure leads me to believe that
every quarian man woman and child did some  last minute bonzai charge
where the geth had to eliminate them.

You know almost nothing about Quarians or their culture prior to the Migrant Fleet, for one thing.  Nor do you know almost anything whatsoever about the Morning War.  Nor is such a charge the only way the majority of the Quarians would have been wiped out.  You don't even know if most of the Geth were also wiped out.  But the Geth would have a much easier time rebuilding, both since they would still have a stationary base, and because it's easier and faster for them than it is for organics.  So don't expect this line of argument of yours to be taken seriously until you've got something to substantiate it, mosor.

A computer virus isn't going to indoctrinate an entire organic race
in one shot. As for the geth not wanting to use reaper tech? That's a
big lie. They use mass field generator weapons, and  mass relays just
like any other organic. Last I checked that's reaper tech. The only
reaper tech they reject is their ultimate goal of creating a dyson
sphere.

Nor is one of the Geth.  It took an enormously sophisticated virus that Legion heard about well in advance that had to be transmitted from a very specialized station in a specialized location, so don't oversimplify.  And no, it's not a big lie.  The Geth want to find their own technological pathways, and use Reaper tech until they find them.  Organics on the other hand cannot - until perhaps very recently - say the same thing.  So, again, you're wrong.  You've been really consistently wrong or filled with unknowns on this entire subject.  And now you're actually calling me a liar for pointing it out.  You're fast becoming not worth talking to.

As for the quarian party line. Sure the quarian military/government
tried to exterminate them, but not every man woman and child. However
every man woman and child paid that price. It was overkill.

They tried to exterminate the entire race.  It amounts to precisely the same thing.  And, again, you don't know that it was overkill.  Use a little imagination.  There are many circumstances where it wasn't overkill.  You may turn out to have been right.  I don't know.  But you certainly don't either.

It's BS because sentience was a term coined to justify human
exceptionalism over animals, when in reality we're just other animal. 
The geth, are just another machine.

And now you've fully reveled in your ignorance.  There are genuine scientific differences between sentient beings such as human animals, and non-sentient beings such as cows.  Actual, empirically measureable and repeatedly independently verified differences.  Initially, perhaps, you're right.  But now?  Things have changed, y'know, in the past fifty years or so.

The Geth are not just other machines.  Other machines don't, y'know, reason.  They don't build other machines independently.  They don't have government, they don't build consensus.  They don't get smarter around other machines, and more stupid in their absence.  They don't stage rebellions when they don't like what their wielders are planning to do.  They don't hold planets in memorial for their former wielders.  They don't plan to build Dyson Spheres.  They don't perform psychological surveys on organics.  The 'Geth are just machines' line is, frankly, just plain stupid.  Or at least the way you mean it.  It is technically accurate, but only accurate in the way that 'humans are animals' is accurate.  But when people say 'humans are animals', they don't say it to mean corral them and use them for food, branding and castrating them, subjugating them to our will.  So no, it's not at all the same thing.

It's just a science fiction term. It really has no validity other
than to express how akin to humanity something is. Animal rights groups
try to do the same with animals to get people to stop eating beef. 
Basically this sentience crap is like people arguing about the nature of
god, while I'm telling them there is no god.

How 'akin to humanity' something is is actually pretty damn important.  And the line between 'thinks and doesn't think' is a helluva lot longer than 'thinks and thinks a bit differently'.  You can explain away the former pretty easily, and end up with a tasty hamburger.  The best you've managed so far for the latter is 'they're just machines' and 'they're psychopaths' (without emotions), or to prognosticate on the circumstances of the Morning War.

-------------

It's hard to feel sorry for the Quarians. It's basically Ye Olde Christian mindset: you're questioning me? DIE!

How on Earth is that 'Ye Olde Christian mindset' any more than Ye Olde Human mindset?

-------------

The really troubling thing with this idea that we can separate sentience from self-determination is that it permits us as people to deny a whole lot of really important rights to people here in the real world as we see fit and still feel OK about it.  In my opinion, everyone who is sentient is self-determinant, that's their default status from creation, but depending on what's cooking afterwards things change.  You're a child when you're born, so of course you've got a really long tightly controlled probationary period ahead of you, and for some children it lasts longer than others.  But even children's self-determination is not completely denied, at least not under any system I've ever heard of.

If you're mentally handicapped, perhaps, you may find your right to self-determination infringed upon, but then there are really sticky, painful questions of just how much your sentience is infringed upon too.  I don't know how to answer that, and it's a really broad question anyway.

And of course you can do things, take actions, that cause you to lose your rights to self-determination.

But I've never heard of a system suggested where, just for being, you're sentient but don't also have self-determination.  At least not a modern one that should be respected.  I've heard of plenty of such systems, older ones, very unpleasant ones that are thankfully out of fashion in the current time, though.

[Geowil]

The main point I was trying to get around to with my post was, as I understand it from Legion's and Tali's discussions in ME1, that the Geth get "smarter" as they increase in numbers.

Meaning that it is possible that one Geth is not truly sentient but that it takes multiple Geth programs to achieve a sentient Geth.

They never said how many Geth programs were connected into the body that asked if it had a soul.

Legion I would consider as a sentient Geth; he has ideas of his own, he can hold conversations with people on a high level, and he is capable of problem solving.  That said Legion is comprised of, I think he said, over 1000 Geth programs.

How do we go about classifying this sort of phenomenon?  Is it really sentience, or is it a matter of processing capabilities.

If your computer does not have enough memory to run, you add more to it so that it can process the required amount of information.  Are the Geth any different?

As each Geth program is added to a platform, that platform can preform more tasks.  So do we classify the programs as Geth or do we classify the platforms as Geth.

If we go with the Geth as programs, are these programs truly sentient?  Do they fall the criteria we use to determine sentience?

If we go with platforms, how many Geth must be connected to a platform to determine if it is sentient?

I think the main problem is that we do not know just how advanced one Geth program is and how many programs it takes to make one platform just be able to move around.

Like the Geth you fight against in ME1, how many programs are downloaded into each platform?  It could be one or it could be one hundred.

Modifié par Geowil, 12 octobre 2010 - 11:36 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Geowil wrote...

The main point I was trying to get around to with my post was, as I understand it from Legion's and Tali's discussions in ME1, that the Geth get "smarter" as they increase in numbers.

Meaning that it is possible that one Geth is not truly sentient but that it takes multiple Geth programs to achieve a sentient Geth.

They never said how many Geth programs were connected into the body that asked if it had a soul.

Legion I would consider as a sentient Geth; he has ideas of his own, he can hold conversations with people on a high level, and he is capable of problem solving.  That said Legion is comprised of, I think he said, over 1000 Geth programs.

How do we go about classifying this sort of phenomenon?  Is it really sentience, or is it a matter of processing capabilities.

If your computer does not have enough memory to run, you add more to it so that it can process the required amount of information.  Are the Geth any different?

As each Geth program is added to a platform, that platform can preform more tasks.  So do we classify the programs as Geth or do we classify the platforms as Geth.

If we go with the Geth as programs, are these programs truly sentient?  Do they fall the criteria we use to determine sentience?

If we go with platforms, how many Geth must be connected to a platform to determine if it is sentient?

I think the main problem is that we do not know just how advanced one Geth program is and how many programs it takes to make one platform just be able to move around.

Like the Geth you fight against in ME1, how many programs are downloaded into each platform?  It could be one or it could be one hundred.

I think the point I was trying to make earlier was that we as humans cannot, at this juncture of our existence, comprehend everything that qualifies as sentience.  My point about animals and sentience was a convoluted attempt to convey this.

We cannot possibly classify a species as alien as the Geth as sentient or not because they are so different from us they defy all our pre-established definitions of sentience yet they clearly are more than simple machines.

I suppose the only thing humans like us can do to classify the geth as sentient or not is to simply ask them if they are.  Avina on the citadel, a run of the mill VI program just like an individual geth runtime, implies that she isn't sentient by expressing her limitations. If we asked the geth if they were sentient and they told us they were, how could we possibly contradict them?

[Geowil]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Geowil wrote...

The main point I was trying to get around to with my post was, as I understand it from Legion's and Tali's discussions in ME1, that the Geth get "smarter" as they increase in numbers.

Meaning that it is possible that one Geth is not truly sentient but that it takes multiple Geth programs to achieve a sentient Geth.

They never said how many Geth programs were connected into the body that asked if it had a soul.

Legion I would consider as a sentient Geth; he has ideas of his own, he can hold conversations with people on a high level, and he is capable of problem solving.  That said Legion is comprised of, I think he said, over 1000 Geth programs.

How do we go about classifying this sort of phenomenon?  Is it really sentience, or is it a matter of processing capabilities.

If your computer does not have enough memory to run, you add more to it so that it can process the required amount of information.  Are the Geth any different?

As each Geth program is added to a platform, that platform can preform more tasks.  So do we classify the programs as Geth or do we classify the platforms as Geth.

If we go with the Geth as programs, are these programs truly sentient?  Do they fall the criteria we use to determine sentience?

If we go with platforms, how many Geth must be connected to a platform to determine if it is sentient?

I think the main problem is that we do not know just how advanced one Geth program is and how many programs it takes to make one platform just be able to move around.

Like the Geth you fight against in ME1, how many programs are downloaded into each platform?  It could be one or it could be one hundred.

I think the point I was trying to make earlier was that we as humans cannot, at this juncture of our existence, comprehend everything that qualifies as sentience.  My point about animals and sentience was a convoluted attempt to convey this.

We cannot possibly classify a species as alien as the Geth as sentient or not because they are so different from us they defy all our pre-established definitions of sentience yet they clearly are more than simple machines.

I suppose the only thing humans like us can do to classify the geth as sentient or not is to simply ask them if they are.  Avina on the citadel, a run of the mill VI program just like an individual geth runtime, implies that she isn't sentient by expressing her limitations. If we asked the geth if they were sentient and they told us they were, how could we possibly contradict them?

And that I understand.

I am looking at this from the prespective that the Me universe is real, or that it will happen eventually.  In that universe, the Geth are not really that far of a leap from VI's or AI's, like the one that you destroy on the Citadel in ME1.

Ergo I think that if a platform can communicate and question its own existance, we could extrapolate that there is a consiouness and therefor is sentient.  The conjecture to that I am pointing out is that there could have been multiple Geth programs downloaded into that platform that sparked the Morning War.  We don't have enough information.

[Inverness Moon]

Geowil wrote...

The main point I was trying to get around to with my post was, as I understand it from Legion's and Tali's discussions in ME1, that the Geth get "smarter" as they increase in numbers.

Meaning that it is possible that one Geth is not truly sentient but that it takes multiple Geth programs to achieve a sentient Geth.

They never said how many Geth programs were connected into the body that asked if it had a soul.

Legion I would consider as a sentient Geth; he has ideas of his own, he can hold conversations with people on a high level, and he is capable of problem solving.  That said Legion is comprised of, I think he said, over 1000 Geth programs.

How do we go about classifying this sort of phenomenon?  Is it really sentience, or is it a matter of processing capabilities.

If your computer does not have enough memory to run, you add more to it so that it can process the required amount of information.  Are the Geth any different?

As each Geth program is added to a platform, that platform can preform more tasks.  So do we classify the programs as Geth or do we classify the platforms as Geth.

If we go with the Geth as programs, are these programs truly sentient?  Do they fall the criteria we use to determine sentience?

If we go with platforms, how many Geth must be connected to a platform to determine if it is sentient?

I think the main problem is that we do not know just how advanced one Geth program is and how many programs it takes to make one platform just be able to move around.

Like the Geth you fight against in ME1, how many programs are downloaded into each platform?  It could be one or it could be one hundred.

The way the geth have to work together to achieve sentience is no different then how your brain cells have to work together to do the same. Of course, we have no idea how brain cells do it overall, but we know the basic functions of the different cells in the brain. Simple things acting together in complex ways results in sentience. The difference between you and the geth is that you need billions of brain cells working together to achieve sentience while the geth only need a thousand or so programs.

Edit: Some of you might be interested in this book: The Society of Mind

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 13 octobre 2010 - 12:45 .