309 réponses à ce sujet

[Schuback]

Not all third options are useful.



- Choose Ashley

- Choose Liara

- Can't I have you both?

[Fadook]

It seems wrong to say: "I want to be good so there should always be a third option". Just because you're roleplaying a good character, doesn't mean that life should be so easy that there is always a minimal harm option. It's far more interesting if you, a good person, is sometimes forced to pick between the lesser of two evils. You know that your decision will have both positive and negative consequences, and you choose the one which you believe is overall more positive. It's these challenging situations that lead to compelling stories. The Connor scenario is a good example of one where the third option removes all the drama and tension. Agonising over what to do is rendered pointless by the oh so convenient availability of the Circle option, which felt like it had been tacked on to cater for people who don't like making hard choices.



Regarding the "third option is good because it's one more option" argument, quantity does not equal quality. Having loads of poorly designed stories/fights/areas/characters/whatever is not better than fewer well implemented ones.

[NvVanity]

I don't mind a third option. It doesn't necessarily have to be the "I don't want to choose between two evils can I haz good one plz?". I like the idea of doing different parts of the story first can allow you some different options (Getting mages for conner for instance).

[DAOME2FTW]

I would certainly remove them, The whole conner/isolde thing was tough for me, as i killed the circle, and told Jowan to ****** of, so I really only had two choices.

[Pedrak]

The third option should be available, but difficult - you can take it only, say, if you succeed at a skill check, have completed a certain other sidequest successfully, etc.

[Ortaya Alevli]

The concept of "third option" here has nothing to do with morality. It's about having a cheap way out of an otherwise meaningful predicament. Did Virmire make Shepard any more Paragon or Renegade? No. Would a lack of Circle option make the Warden better or more evil? No.

[Bullets McDeath]

I agree there should not always be a "consequence-free" third option, unless it makes sense. It did not make sense for the Go to the Mage Tower option to have no consequences... it should have been an option, but the Demon should have killed Teagen, as Dave suggested, or *something* at least.



That said, you have to take responsibility for your own metagaming. In my current playthrough I will be interring the Mage Circle at Denerim before I go to Redcliffe so that I am forced to make that decision. So I'm actually metagaming my way OUT of the third option, because I'm swass like that.

[2Wierd]

Personally, I like having a "clean" option - one that gets you out of the bind between other dirtier choices.  Since many want this to also have consequences, then perhaps add options to the clean option.

A.  Leave for the tower, leave nobody behind.  - Teagan and more die.  Maybe there's not enough left to join your army and therefore not have a representative at your camp.

B.  Leave for the tower, leave people behind.  This could require that you split your 4 man group into 2, 2man groups.  You venture to the tower with only 2 people.  While doing so, there's a "wandering encounter" chance where you swap back to the 2 in town and have to defend against a few waves.  (Why can't you just leave another 4man group from your camp to defend the town?  Uhh...for the same reason you can't normally take more than 4 with you. )

I don't want to *always* have to make the choice between suck and blow.  And as the someone said, if they made the Circle option only available if you had already cleared the tower, that would have worked for me too.  I like to have the ability to think through a situation (i.e. go through dialog choices) and find another option.

With that said, I enjoy making my 2nd character a bit "grumpy" and purposely choosing the non-clean answers.  Some characters you want to walk through a crap storm and come out with his suit clean and pressed, others you want mired in it.

Modifié par 2Wierd, 10 octobre 2010 - 06:50 .

[AllThatJazz]

 I don't think the problem with the third option is with the concept, just the implementation. The problem lies in the fact that the third option is just .. there, presented alongside the other two - both of which require some sort of sacrifice. Obviously, therefore, most people playing a character of 'good' nature will choose the option that leads to least harm. 

If the third option actually requires the PC to work for it - through skill use, research, investigation, a bit of asking around or whatever, and if the third option comes with (unforseen) consequences of its own, then why shouldn't there be a way to get a 'happy ending' for those players willing to go the extra mile to get it? 

Tbh, I struggle with the idea of what's 'meaningful' in games. Why are options that lead to pain, death and sacrifice considered meaningful, while options that lead to life, love and happiness thought of as shallow? Surely, in the context of a game neither has more relevance than the other, aside from providing a different narrative 'punch'. And in the case of RL - well, option three if you please. It's true - I like my escapism to make me feel good, not miserable, I tend to avoid sad films for the same reason .

I appreciated, from a narrative point of view, the Virmire part of ME1, and also the Dark Ritual of Origins when I played through the Alistair romance - and (though I didn't enjoy those bits much) I  won't object (much) if a similar situation were to arise in DA2, one where every choice is a variation on a theme of crap. Redcliffe, though, was a bit different. Partly, for me, because the characters involved were mother and child.

If my only choices had been to sacrifice either a kid or his mother, it may have been game over for me at that point. A 'choice' between killing Connor or Isolde is no real choice, and certainly not a moral one or a meaningful one - it's mean, kind of arbitrary, and based mostly on which character the player likes the least. By all means, make me graft for the third option in a case such as this - but it should be a possibility. 

Sorry, rambling.

[Lumikki]

Let just say this way, if there is possibile to exist other options, then there should be more than two. Example kill Loghain or make him Warden, why only these two options?

[Bullets McDeath]

Lumikki wrote...

Let just say this way, if there is possibile to exist other options, then there should be more than two. Example kill Loghain or make him Warden, why only these two options?

Well, I'd say that decision was borked for another reason; I hate the fact you don't know that  Warden must be sacrificed in order to put the Archdemon down. I guess it supposed to be a "gotcha" moment and all, but it would actually provide a real, sane reason to choose to recruit Loghain. Otherwise it is basically out of left field and not a position that's easy to defend. It's like your Warden is having a brain seizure and forgets what is going on while he makes those decisions.

 And most players I know only go with that option for the metagame reason of wanting to have Loghain redeem himself by making the Ultimate Sacrifice. Bah, it's a missed oppurtunity I think.

[upsettingshorts]

outlaworacle wrote...
 And most players I know only go with that option for the metagame reason of wanting to have Loghain redeem himself by making the Ultimate Sacrifice. Bah, it's a missed oppurtunity I think.

Well, by that point we do know that being a Warden inevitably means a death sentence in the Deep Roads, provided one survives the joining.

So it can still be a path of atonement in the Warden's view, even without the knowledge of the potential for self sarifice at the hands of the Archdemon.  It would force Loghain to serve an order he opposed, and then to die for it.

[Charliea1234]

The Loghain/Alastair situation is one where a third option was needed.  It made little sense to me that sparing Loghain meant Alastair always left.  There should have been a reward for having a full approval rating and high persuasion skill that you could have got Alastair to stay and if the plot point regarding the Archdemon had been revealed earlier that could have been the argument winner, 'We spare Loghain now so that he takes the killing blow, sparing us'

[Marionetten]

If you have a superior third option everyone is going to end up taking that option making the other options completely pointless. So no, I don't want to see any of these magical fix everything options in Dragon Age 2. It would also be nice if some choices came with longterm consequences. BioWare needs to take a page or two out of CD Projekt's book here.

Charliea1234 wrote...

The Loghain/Alastair situation is one where a third option was needed.  It made little sense to me that sparing Loghain meant Alastair always left.  There should have been a reward for having a full approval rating and high persuasion skill that you could have got Alastair to stay and if the plot point regarding the Archdemon had been revealed earlier that could have been the argument winner, 'We spare Loghain now so that he takes the killing blow, sparing us'

Loghain was responsible for the death of Duncan. Duncan was like a father to Alistair. While I agree that you should be able to talk yourself out of a lot of situations this isn't one of them. There is no way that Alistair would ever work with Loghain. Alistair isn't a pragmatist. He's a hopeless idealist.

Modifié par Marionetten, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...
 And most players I know only go with that option for the metagame reason of wanting to have Loghain redeem himself by making the Ultimate Sacrifice. Bah, it's a missed oppurtunity I think.

Well, by that point we do know that being a Warden inevitably means a death sentence in the Deep Roads, provided one survives the joining.

So it can still be a path of atonement in the Warden's view, even without the knowledge of the potential for self sarifice at the hands of the Archdemon.  It would force Loghain to serve an order he opposed, and then to die for it.

Right, but that's still brain-damaged decision making. "Yeah, the taint should overtake Loghain... um, eventually... so yeah, that is his punishment. So have fun in exile, guy who's had my back the whole game. Unless I decide to execute you. Peace!"

Now, if you knew about the sacrifice, that would be much more dramatic. It could still force Alistair to leave, but it would be over a good reason, not the player's desire to get the Recruiter Achievement and/or be the biggest jackhole in all Ferelden.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:35 .

[Charliea1234]

[quote]Marionetten wrote...

[/quote]
Loghain was responsible for the death of Duncan. Duncan was like a father to Alistair. While I agree that you should be able to talk yourself out of a lot of situations this isn't one of them. There is no way that Alistair would ever work with Loghain. Alistair isn't a pragmatist. He's a hopeless idealist.

[/quote]

I do kind of agree, but I guess it makes the whole approval scheme seem a bit pointless, you should have some 'reward' for it being at 100% and this crunch question could have been one of them.  After all Alastair has been at your Wardens side the whole way, if he completely approves of you then you should be able to influence him?

[Marionetten]

As a side note, I hate dialogue approval. It's like you're being awarded for picking the right option and smacked on your fingers for picking the wrong one. Wouldn't it be so much nicer if your actions mattered more? Wouldn't it be so much nicer if all of your companions had something to say about your big choices? That way you couldn't be friends with everyone by endlessly sucking up. Sure, you could attempt to persuade them that you did what you did for a good reason but not everyone would be inclined to agree.



Small talk is nice and all but I felt it was way too important in Origins.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Well, by that point we do know that being a Warden inevitably means a death sentence in the Deep Roads, provided one survives the joining.

I object. It could be a horrific cursed fate as a darkspawn or ghoul (I was never quite clear on what happened to those who skipped their calling).

Come on, think of the fringe benefis of chilling as a darkspawn/ghoul.

So it can still be a path of atonement in the Warden's view, even without the knowledge of the potential for self sarifice at the hands of the Archdemon.  It would force Loghain to serve an order he opposed, and then to die for it.

What's interesting is that Duncan would no doubt have welcomed Loghain with open arms. Whatever he did, Loghain was a talented solider and a capable general, and the darkspawn were a real and pressing threat. We do what is neccesary, right?

And the whole the killing Grey Wardens business... Duncan started as a Warden in a not too dissimilar way, though his was more attempted than mass.

[In Exile]

Charliea1234 wrote...

The Loghain/Alastair situation is one where a third option was needed.  It made little sense to me that sparing Loghain meant Alastair always left.  There should have been a reward for having a full approval rating and high persuasion skill that you could have got Alastair to stay and if the plot point regarding the Archdemon had been revealed earlier that could have been the argument winner, 'We spare Loghain now so that he takes the killing blow, sparing us'

There is a third option (of sorts). A hardened Alistair will take the crown and marry Anora, leaving Loghain in the party. It will not be a particular good parting, but you can have Alistair as king and Loghain in the party.

[upsettingshorts]

outlaworacle wrote...
Right, but that's still brain-damaged decision making. "Yeah, the taint should overtake Loghain... um, eventually... so yeah, that is his punishment. So have fun in exile, guy who's had my back the whole game. Unless I decide to execute you. Peace!"

Or you could have hardened Alistair and he bails on your party but is still King of Ferelden.

I viewed it as kicking Alistair's butt in the right direction when I did it, and I figured while he'd hate me then and probably for a long while afterword, it was still the "right thing" to do - at least in my character's mind - and he'd get over it in time.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:18 .

[AllThatJazz]

In Exile wrote...

Charliea1234 wrote...

The Loghain/Alastair situation is one where a third option was needed.  It made little sense to me that sparing Loghain meant Alastair always left.  There should have been a reward for having a full approval rating and high persuasion skill that you could have got Alastair to stay and if the plot point regarding the Archdemon had been revealed earlier that could have been the argument winner, 'We spare Loghain now so that he takes the killing blow, sparing us'

There is a third option (of sorts). A hardened Alistair will take the crown and marry Anora, leaving Loghain in the party. It will not be a particular good parting, but you can have Alistair as king and Loghain in the party.

This is a really good example of how a third option should work, I think. It isn't obvious, it depends on the player having taken certain actions throughout the game (in this case hardening Alistair and presumably having reasonably high influence with him). It also has consequences - Alistair is no longer in your party, Loghain is. It's an option most players probably won't see (I've never seen it in my playthroughs). And yet it's a better 'ending' than Alistair dead or drunk or Loghain beheaded. More like this, please.

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, I basically had to metagame to find that one.

I can't speak for everyone as I imagine everyone's playthrough is different - but I saw the "third way" with the Elves and Werewolves on my first playthrough, but didn't even see the Circle Tower option for Connor (I must have not asked the right questions) till my second, and didn't know about the Alistair scenario we describe until I read about it on a Wiki.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Vicious]

KEEP the third choice, and then spam the player with unintended consequences for trying to be the NICE AND COMPLETELY UNEXPEDIENT HERO.

[Wulfram]

The third option I'd have liked to see with Loghain is for the player to neither kill Loghain or recruit him. As long as he's no longer getting in the way of the fight against the blight, his fate is not something that need concern the grey wardens.

[madmatt1393]

Who else went for that amazing FOURTH decision!?!?

Where Connor's soul is sold to the Desire demon, The elves are eaten by werewolves, and you side with Harrowmont kill carriden and then betray Harrowmont!