309 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Having properly read the OP, I'd say that I don't want the third option removed. What I want is for the third option to also be as morally grey as the others, or for it to carry a greater risk than the others.



If the mages option in Redcliffe meant that Teagan died or that a huge number of villagers were killed, then that would've been a viable alternative.



In the case of the werewolves, while I agree that lifting the curse is an optimal solution, at least there's the consequence of having the lady of the forest die, something that I really, really hate.

[silentassassin264]

I really should read everything before responding.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:24 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zjarcal wrote...

Having properly read the OP, I'd say that I don't want the third option removed. What I want is for the third option to also be as morally grey as the others, or for it to carry a greater risk than the others.

Well, I'm not advocating the removal of the literal third choice. The trope page for example points out that you're given choices but the character goes out and does another one that ends up to be the best for everybody. The trope would also work (I'd link it) even if there was 5-6 decisions. What I suggested more is the removal of those choices without consequences.

Maybe it's not too clear in the OP, however.

[SirOccam]

It's kind of tough to say. I like tough decisions, but I also like the concept of figuring a way out of it, at least sometimes. I don't want to always feel like, as Luke said, I'm choosing between suck and blow. I want to be able to do something good sometimes. Will a cost, sure, but still with a clear net positive result.

[DOYOURLABS]

I say keep them, but it shouldn't automatically appear. You should have to investigate a situation, then a certain character or a cunning level will think of it. But choices that need to be made immediately shouldn't have a third choice.

[Reaverwind]

SirOccam wrote...

It's kind of tough to say. I like tough decisions, but I also like the concept of figuring a way out of it, at least sometimes. I don't want to always feel like, as Luke said, I'm choosing between suck and blow. I want to be able to do something good sometimes. Will a cost, sure, but still with a clear net positive result.

All 3 choices for Redcliffe actually had a net positive result: stopping an Abomination terrorizing the area. The problem with the 3rd choice was that it was also the no-brainer easy choice. With that there, you have to do some meta-gaming to justify the other choices - and that annoys me to no end.

[errant_knight]

This is really a question of do you want a game that's inclusive of people who don't want to make only grey choices, or one that drives those people away? The question is a bit moot, as we've already had someone from Bioware say that they won't remove those but try to find better ways to implement them, but that's the gist of it.

[Zjarcal]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Having properly read the OP, I'd say that I don't want the third option removed. What I want is for the third option to also be as morally grey as the others, or for it to carry a greater risk than the others.

Well, I'm not advocating the removal of the literal third choice. The trope page for example points out that you're given choices but the character goes out and does another one that ends up to be the best for everybody. The trope would also work (I'd link it) even if there was 5-6 decisions. What I suggested more is the removal of those choices without consequences.

Maybe it's not too clear in the OP, however.

Actually I get what you mean now. "Third option" equates to the "everyone wins" option.

Yes, unless they somewhat make sense (and involve some risk), I want them removed as well.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

But as others have argued, you don't have to choose that option.

When I don't metagame, I never do take the Connor choice with the Mage Tower. I often go in and kill Connor (well, I let Isolde finish him off.) simply because I approach the Mage Tower as too risky. However, this bothers me on a personal level.

How many people do you suspect have ALWAYS chosen the mage tower when they found out the choice was available? Players will always pick the best and brightest choice when available, they'll never consider the other alternatives.

What do other people's choices have anything to do with how you play a single player game? At the end of the day, you should be making choices based on "your" character's personality to begin with. Wheres the fun in Metagaming in an rpg anyway? Serious question.

[Dave of Canada]

errant_knight wrote...

The question is a bit moot, as we've already had someone from Bioware say that they won't remove those but try to find better ways to implement them, but that's the gist of it.

Provided it's difficult enough than just going "Sup. Let's do this." then I might be fine with it. Provided it's not simply something like...
"Hawke, we have to save those miners!"
The miners are unimportant, we need to seal the Darkspawn! [kills all the miners]

Blow up the mine, who cares about the Darkspawn? We need to save them! [save the miners but Darkspawn invade the surface in the epilogue and kill more people]

Let's dig a hole that will take a few days to dig and get them out of there! [saves the miners, no darkspawn. Everybody is happy.]

You should at least have collected a shovel or two for the hole option to appear and then you have to dig the hole.

---
With my "consequences" thing that I was pushing, maybe a few miners died because you took too long to dig them out however you were able to save most of them.

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Wheres the fun in Metagaming in an rpg anyway? Serious question.

Because if I know that [X] will happen, it'll bias my choice regardless if I'm metagaming or not.

Even the most cruel people that would kill Conner for ****s and giggles gives me trouble to not metagame that choice, I know there's a better alternative and I have to catch the idiot ball in real life to avoid it.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Wheres the fun in Metagaming in an rpg anyway? Serious question.

Adds replayability towards the end of a game's life when you as the player are aware of nearly all possible options. 

[Leonia]

Mm, yes more consequences would be nice. I always expected with the first time I did the Mage Tower option for Redcliffe that I'd come back and Teagan and everyone except maybe Isolde would be dead. I mean, unless I was able to clear the tower of abominations and sail across Lake Calenhad (both ways) in less than 24 hours.. it just didn't seem like a good choice to make without some serious reprecussions. Granted, I take more joy in letting Isolde make the blood sacrifice anyway since the entire situation is HER FAULT (and damn it, why does Alistair have to tell you off for it? She was a b*tch to him too!)

I also wanted to echo what Occy said:

SirOccam wrote...

It's kind of tough to say. I like tough decisions, but I also like the concept of figuring a way out of it, at least sometimes. I don't want to always feel like, as Luke said, I'm choosing between suck and blow. I want to be able to do something good sometimes. Will a cost, sure, but still with a clear net positive result.

I totally feel similar about it.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:53 .

[Angarma]

I always go to the circle tower first and then to redcliffe.

Normally I'll choose siding with the templars, so no third "easy" choice for me.

Funny thing was that the dwarf warden killed Jowan as well, no sacrificial choice.

So in the end my dwarf got Isolde to kill off Connor for the greater good (40k reference anyone?).



The point being is that with this story, I was initially unaware of any sort of choices.

Which made it very fun! "how do I make this seem like a good ending?" I would ask myself.

My opinion would be that less options make for more interesting ways of turning things on their heads, if you know what I mean.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ OP
I wouldn't necessarily put the curing of Werewolves in the same vein as "Go to the Mage Tower" option that I personally consider to be the most idiotic and cheap choice in the game. The cure option actually made sense.

So yes OP, I agree about removing cheap way outs with no consequences. 
I would tolerate maybe one or two, as long as it's written well (and with some consequence) and doesn't reek of stupid like the "go to the mage and hope the demon doesn't do anything" bs

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:53 .

[HTTP 404]

If the OP is talking about the Ace in the Hole option that is waaay better than other choices then yes. please remove. I hate short selling myself just to have a new experience through a playthrough.



Example: in ME2

I incited the crowd during Talis trial instead of choosing "blue" or "red" and Kal Reeger and Veetor spoke out for Tali. Never had known that was possible due to always choosing the "best" answer which was blue or red OR top or bottom. incite the crowd was neither, it was a middle option.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Wheres the fun in Metagaming in an rpg anyway? Serious question.

Because if I know that [X] will happen, it'll bias my choice regardless if I'm metagaming or not.

Even the most cruel people that would kill Conner for ****s and giggles gives me trouble to not metagame that choice, I know there's a better alternative and I have to catch the idiot ball in real life to avoid it.

It shouldn't. Well it shouldn't if you're actually roleplaying a particular character personality in the first place. Especially in a single player game, what other people do imo at least shouldn't even be in the equation, its not like theres some contest for different quest solutions.

[Dave of Canada]

HTTP 404 wrote...

If the OP is talking about the Ace in the Hole option that is waaay better than other choices then yes. please remove. I hate short selling myself just to have a new experience through a playthrough.

I am.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ OP
I wouldn't necessarily put the curing of Werewolves in the same vein as "Go to the Mage Tower" option that I personally consider to be the most idiotic and cheap choice in the game. The cure option actually made sense.

So yes OP, I agree about removing cheap way outs with no consequences. 
I would tolerate maybe one or two, as long as it's written well and doesn't reek of stupid like the "go to the mage and hope the demon doesnt' do anything" bs

Indeed. The option makes sense and you lose the lady of the forest as a consequence (something I hate). It's an optimal solution but at least it makes sense. And from a gameplay perspective, you lose the werewolf army, which some players might prefer.

With the mages option, you don't lose ANYTHING.

[SirOccam]

Reaverwind wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

It's kind of tough to say. I like tough decisions, but I also like the concept of figuring a way out of it, at least sometimes. I don't want to always feel like, as Luke said, I'm choosing between suck and blow. I want to be able to do something good sometimes. Will a cost, sure, but still with a clear net positive result.

All 3 choices for Redcliffe actually had a net positive result: stopping an Abomination terrorizing the area. The problem with the 3rd choice was that it was also the no-brainer easy choice. With that there, you have to do some meta-gaming to justify the other choices - and that annoys me to no end.

Yeah, that was probably worded rather poorly. I know stopping the abomination was positive, but having to kill a child or kill his mother is pretty harsh, and I can't imagine anyone felt really proud of themselves after that (aside from maybe some really evil characters). I like the idea of "outwitting fate" from time to time. Not every time, and not as blatantly as the Connor thing, but sometimes. Of course, having difficult decisions with no easy way out can also be very compelling. I guess there needs to be a balance between the two.

If you've read Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, think about the end of The Amber Spyglass. Now there is one situation I was frantically hoping could have a "magic bullet." I just finished that series this week and it's all I've been thinking about. Going to force myself to stop talking now or else it'll be a huge blubbering post about how much I loved those books and how I can still get choked up if I think about it for too long without distracting myself.

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It shouldn't. Well it shouldn't if you're actually roleplaying a particular character personality in the first place. Especially in a single player game, what other people do imo at least shouldn't even be in the equation, its not like theres some contest for different quest solutions.

I'm given a tough choice. I can't do that tough choice because I know that the third option below is "OH HEY, WE'RE GIVING YOU AN EASY WAY OUT!'. It isn't about what other people do, it's about how much the easy way influences everybody and makes the tough choices rather lame.

Like I said before, it "taints" the choice. I play stupid and purposely metagame to avoid that decision or I metagame and pick it.

[silentassassin264]

HTTP 404 wrote...

If the OP is talking about the Ace in the Hole option that is waaay better than other choices then yes. please remove. I hate short selling myself just to have a new experience through a playthrough.

Example: in ME2
I incited the crowd during Talis trial instead of choosing "blue" or "red" and Kal Reeger and Veetor spoke out for Tali. Never had known that was possible due to always choosing the "best" answer which was blue or red OR top or bottom. incite the crowd was neither, it was a middle option.

But that is the type of third option that I like.  You don't just automatically get that option.  You have to give Veetor to Tali and save Kal'Reeger.   That leaves to a logically build up of character witnesses to save Tali at the trial.  But if you could out of the blue (without adequate persuasion) rally the random crowd of Quarians to your side, that would be ridiculous just like pulling a "Go to the Mage Tower" at Redcliffe.  It is just that I don't believe that they would consistently only put in good third options like the rally the crowd in ME2.

[Leonia]

Meh, I don't pick the Mage Tower choice due to metagaming knowledge so much as I pick it so I don't get a lecture at camp from Alistair later on.

Also, on the subject of The Amber Spyglass, oh man the ending.. I cried.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 octobre 2010 - 03:01 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It shouldn't. Well it shouldn't if you're actually roleplaying a particular character personality in the first place. Especially in a single player game, what other people do imo at least shouldn't even be in the equation, its not like theres some contest for different quest solutions.

I'm given a tough choice. I can't do that tough choice because I know that the third option below is "OH HEY, WE'RE GIVING YOU AN EASY WAY OUT!'. It isn't about what other people do, it's about how much the easy way influences everybody and makes the tough choices rather lame.

Like I said before, it "taints" the choice. I play stupid and purposely metagame to avoid that decision or I metagame and pick it.

Or you actually role play your player character, not metagame, and it isn't an issue in the first place. Granted aparently no one actually wants to role play in CRPG's anymore aparently to begin with, because it takes a little bit of effort on their part.

I don't think Bioware or anyone else is ever going to come up with a solution for that, there's only so many outcomes they can put into the game for quest solutions, and I'm sorry but some of them will at times offer a happy solution to the quest.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 07 octobre 2010 - 03:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

leonia42 wrote...

Also, on the subject of The Amber Spyglass, oh man the ending.. I cried.

Now I'm interesting in knowing the ending... argh! *I haven't read the series at all and most likely will never read it*