309 réponses à ce sujet

[Aggie Punbot]

Honestly, I'm fine with the Circle Tower solution as it's not always available as an option. If a player has gone to the Circle already and sided with the Templars, you cannot save everyone; if you've done the quest and sided with the mages, you can. It makes complete sense considering that you need mages to perform the ritual.

I don't particularly like having only two choices for each major decision. I am glad a third option exists, and I am glad that it will no longer be available if certain actions have already been taken. Personally, I always assumed that Teagan and Isolde trussed up Connor when they were able and kept him immobile until the PC and party returned (or possibly left Wynne or Morrigan there to keep an eye on him).

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:41 .

[Reaverwind]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Honestly, I'm fine with the Circle Tower solution as it's not always available as an option. If a player has gone to the Circle already and sided with the Templars, you cannot save everyone; if you've done the quest and sided with the mages, you can. It makes complete sense considering that you need mages to perform the ritual.

I don't particularly like having only two choices for each major decision. I am glad a third option exists, and I am glad that it will no longer be available if certain actions have already been taken.

You're taking it too literally. What is meant by "3rd option" is the easy cop-out choice.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Brockololly]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
just did Cadash and am now going to get a piece of the mirror from the ruin, but having read others opinions and hearing it discussed during a podcast or two, I fully expect to know no more about the DR or Morrigan's plans once I'm done with it. And its really unfortunate that it's another case where Bioware either rushed due to a change in scheduling of  DLC, or half assed it for the sake of holding it over to be answered in DA2 or DA3 should DA3 be made.

Oh yeah, you won't learn anything about Morrigan's plans at all really. You learn a couple tiny bits of information like the sex of the Old God Baby if you did the DR, but thats about it beyond more vague, frustratingly evasive  non-answers from Morrigan. I personally can't shake the feeling that Witch Hunt was supposed to be part of something more- it just seems odd to take the DR which is the biggest choice from Origins and then seeing as Morrigan isn't in DA2, not do anything with it until maybe DA3 years from now. Maybe DA2 is setting up more stuff ofr DA3, but still, I don't get it....

[ProfessionalPirate]

I like the option to work a little harder for greater reward, but not necessarily without risk, I just remember when yoda says somthing along the lines of the quick and easy way leading to the dark sid and that the jedi really have to work hard to gt the best results, so i guess i really like having the option to maby find a solution that no one has really thought about, that helps the most people

[AlanC9]

Are you sure that's what the OP meant?

[ProfessionalPirate]

AlanC9 wrote...

Are you sure that's what the OP meant?

uhhh, i think so......,                    its like having to take the time to go to the mage tower to save Conner, or dig a little harder to find the info nessasary to cure the werewolves.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, you're right; I misread him.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Dave... If the game is supposed to shape the world (like the first podcast said it would) then I want to make clear choices, instead of using a safe third one (like the middle option in ME1) which spoon feeds me the heroic good guy. I rather make a conscious decision than leave the future of Thedas to faith.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 07 octobre 2010 - 06:39 .

[upsettingshorts]

I'm not against the idea of 'third way" options...however:

The problem isn't that there are third options, the problem is that they result in entirely positive consequences. In the Good Guy options, the positive consequence is that you did the right thing and the negative consequence is typically that it was more difficult or you earned less in physical rewards. In Total Jerk options, the positive consequence is that the task was easier or you received more physical rewards, but the negative consequence is you were selfish or cruelly pragmatic.

In the "third way" examples in Bioware games such a decision, like the werewolves vs. elves one or the Connor/Mages one, is that everyone wins. It's almost too clean. We should I think encourage opportunities for regret and choices that matter. Easy choices aren't memorable and aren't fun.

For Connor, maybe it should have only worked out - entirely positively - if you had done the Circle Tower before visiting Redcliff.  If you discover the option after arriving but have to leave to clear the Tower, bad stuff happens with Connor and Redcliff by the time you return.  That way it's an unexpected reward for those who did the Tower first, provides an opportunity to metagame in a later playthrough, and adds quite a realistic consequence to attempting to try it in a less-than-ideal circumstance.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 octobre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Felfenix]

I hate the third options. They invalidate all choice. Why make a difficult between two choices, both with valid pros and cons, when you can choose number three and get all the pros and none of the cons? It's very Mary Sue Cop Out.

To clarify, I don't hate having more than two options. I hate having options where there is a "win everything" option that invalidates any reasonable point in choosing anything else. Why would I ever not choose the Renegade/Paragon "cheat" options in Mass Effect, for example? That stuff really doesn't add depth to the game or character. Being forced to choose, and actually having consequences for actions... THAT is what I want...

There is no reason to choose between the werewolves and elves, for example, unless you just want to be mean and kill one side. There is no reason to kill Connor or his mother, too. Even if they changed it so you could only "Number 3" it up if you had previously visited the Circle... that would just pigeonhole everyone into visiting the Circle first. I mean... why not? It then basically becomes the "right way" to play the "proper" hero of the game. There is no dilemma though with these Mary Sue win-it-all-at-no-real-cost options, and dilemmas are what make a story interesting, and it's lame when dilemmas are constantly presented, but there is always some "Ha-ha! I choose the best of all options!" choice that pops up.

Why even have choices, if there is a clear and obvious "correct" path? Decisions like Harrowmont v Bhelen or Ashley v Kaiden are the kind that matter and make the game three dimensional instead of a 2D obvious facade.

Modifié par Felfenix, 07 octobre 2010 - 07:01 .

[MerinTB]

Yeah...



you'd lose me as a player if it was all "Sucks A" or "Sucks B" options.



Dead lose me. It's a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

[upsettingshorts]

The third option should only be available if certain preconditions are met, and those preconditions shouldn't be immediately obvious. The quarian "rally the crowd" option is a pretty good example. If you kept Veetor for interrogation, got Kal Reagor killed... it simply doesn't show up.

Sure people would metagame such decisions eventually, but they wouldn't seem so cheap and easy.

MerinTB wrote...

Yeah...

you'd lose me as a player if it was all "Sucks A" or "Sucks B" options.

Dead lose me. It's a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

That's not typically how it plays out though.  Very few decisions are as openly dark as the non-Circle options for say, Connor.  A good example of a decision like the one you claim to abhor would be Bhelan vs. Harrowmont.  There was no third option to endorse an honest liberal dwarf who would help free the casteless, open up Orzammar to the outside, and maintain the constitutional monarchy/legislature.  You had to pick one or the other.

Sucks A: Devious a sshole becomes king.
Sucks B: Stubborn, incompetent noble becomes king.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 octobre 2010 - 07:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

Just a funny thought, I would love to have seen the following third option for A Paragon of Her Kind:

* Lead the workers and casteless in a communist revolution and install a dictatorship of the proletariat. This would involve quite a bit of fighting and legal maneuvering, naturally. The epilogue would imply that the dwarves' growing desire to spread the revolution beyond the walls of Orzammar was starting to worry human nobles so they began to pressure the Chantry to call for a politically motivated Exalted March on Orzammar to deal with the problem.

...it'd have the advantage of being interesting.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 octobre 2010 - 07:07 .

[Felfenix]

IMO, the "win it all" options should only appear if you have the game set on casual/easy, cause let's be honest, the only people who cling to the no-negatives options are the kind of people who never wanna lose, and never want real choice/challenge.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Urazz wrote...

Yeah, the mage tower option would've been fine if we could only use it if we did the mage tower before redcliffe.

No, I think the optin should always be there.  But it would great if it was only successful if you'd already done the Tower.  So if you haven't, and you go to the Tower and then complete it, it's too late and Connor has killed his family or something.

[Never]

I think DA:O had a great balance. I enjoy the tough decisions, but it would be hard to believe if there were no happy endings. I know I wouldn't want to play the game if every choice you made was either bad or worse.
As far as the Redcliffe events, I think I've killed Isolde as many times as I've taken the mage route. It just feels right with some of my characters. I'll never kill Connor though, the idea of choosing to kill a child disturbs me in any world.

[Felfenix]

It would have been cool if the last place you visited would've been "too late". Visit Orzammar last, and the city has already gone into civil war. Visit the tower last, and the mages/templars ended up killing each other. Visit the forest last, and elves/werewolves killed each other. Visit Redcliffe last and the town falls no matter what. It was kind of silly how you always ended up arriving just in the knick of time, no matter what... A little tragedy, difficulty, and choice is nice in a story/game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Felfenix wrote...

It would have been cool if the last place you visited would've been "too late". Visit Orzammar last, and the city has already gone into civil war. Visit the tower last, and the mages/templars ended up killing each other. Visit the forest last, and elves/werewolves killed each other. Visit Redcliffe last and the town falls no matter what. It was kind of silly how you always ended up arriving just in the knick of time, no matter what... A little tragedy, difficulty, and choice is nice in a story/game.

I agree failure should be an option.

If there are two partial success options, plus a third total success option, I'd also like a fourth total failure option.

Balance.

[nightcobra]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

It would have been cool if the last place you visited would've been "too late". Visit Orzammar last, and the city has already gone into civil war. Visit the tower last, and the mages/templars ended up killing each other. Visit the forest last, and elves/werewolves killed each other. Visit Redcliffe last and the town falls no matter what. It was kind of silly how you always ended up arriving just in the knick of time, no matter what... A little tragedy, difficulty, and choice is nice in a story/game.

I agree failure should be an option.

If there are two partial success options, plus a third total success option, I'd also like a fourth total failure option.

Balance.

agreed, as for me total/partial success/failure should be up to the player's choices

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 07 octobre 2010 - 07:53 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The third option should only be available if certain preconditions are met, and those preconditions shouldn't be immediately obvious. The quarian "rally the crowd" option is a pretty good example. If you kept Veetor for interrogation, got Kal Reagor killed... it simply doesn't show up.

Sure people would metagame such decisions eventually, but they wouldn't seem so cheap and easy.

MerinTB wrote...

Yeah...

you'd lose me as a player if it was all "Sucks A" or "Sucks B" options.

Dead lose me. It's a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

That's not typically how it plays out though.  Very few decisions are as openly dark as the non-Circle options for say, Connor.  A good example of a decision like the one you claim to abhor would be Bhelan vs. Harrowmont.  There was no third option to endorse an honest liberal dwarf who would help free the casteless, open up Orzammar to the outside, and maintain the constitutional monarchy/legislature.  You had to pick one or the other.

Sucks A: Devious a sshole becomes king.
Sucks B: Stubborn, incompetent noble becomes king.

Honest and Liberal should never be uttered in the same sentence, never mind together. Just saying.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Hawke loses his left arm, you can't dual-wield anymore or hold two-handed weapons. Make this just for the people who never want good ending. Please.

Kreia much?

Tri-wielding.

[FDrage]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

agreed, as for me total/partial success/failure should be up to the player's choices

As long as there is a "total success" option. Most of the time in threads like these people want to "total; failure" option without the "total Sucess", because "live is harsh" and "everything is grey" and "it is a dark fantasy".

As long as it is up to the players choice of what to do then it is fine to have all these total/partial option. One of my character could have chose the "circle" option but didn't partially as it was meta-gaming knowledge at that time and partially becuase it would have been completly out of character for that specific person. But I was still gald that the optioin was there and it was up to me / my character what was appropriate.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Brockololly wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
just did Cadash and am now going to get a piece of the mirror from the ruin, but having read others opinions and hearing it discussed during a podcast or two, I fully expect to know no more about the DR or Morrigan's plans once I'm done with it. And its really unfortunate that it's another case where Bioware either rushed due to a change in scheduling of  DLC, or half assed it for the sake of holding it over to be answered in DA2 or DA3 should DA3 be made.

Oh yeah, you won't learn anything about Morrigan's plans at all really. You learn a couple tiny bits of information like the sex of the Old God Baby if you did the DR, but thats about it beyond more vague, frustratingly evasive  non-answers from Morrigan. I personally can't shake the feeling that Witch Hunt was supposed to be part of something more- it just seems odd to take the DR which is the biggest choice from Origins and then seeing as Morrigan isn't in DA2, not do anything with it until maybe DA3 years from now. Maybe DA2 is setting up more stuff ofr DA3, but still, I don't get it....

Actually it left me with more questions and very few answers, and even though it says she leaves you with something, I then imported that character to Awakening for a run through that, and alas, nothing from Morrigan in my pack that I saw. Pretty underwhelming DLC on the whole to be honest, at least the constant party banter was a nice touch and that boss was an interesting creature before you get to Morrigan, again though it felt kinda "half finished" like you could tell they had more they wanted to do but due to whatever factors weren't able to. At least thats the impression it left me with. .

[nightcobra]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
just did Cadash and am now going to get a piece of the mirror from the ruin, but having read others opinions and hearing it discussed during a podcast or two, I fully expect to know no more about the DR or Morrigan's plans once I'm done with it. And its really unfortunate that it's another case where Bioware either rushed due to a change in scheduling of  DLC, or half assed it for the sake of holding it over to be answered in DA2 or DA3 should DA3 be made.

Oh yeah, you won't learn anything about Morrigan's plans at all really. You learn a couple tiny bits of information like the sex of the Old God Baby if you did the DR, but thats about it beyond more vague, frustratingly evasive  non-answers from Morrigan. I personally can't shake the feeling that Witch Hunt was supposed to be part of something more- it just seems odd to take the DR which is the biggest choice from Origins and then seeing as Morrigan isn't in DA2, not do anything with it until maybe DA3 years from now. Maybe DA2 is setting up more stuff ofr DA3, but still, I don't get it....

Actually it left me with more questions and very few answers, and even though it says she leaves you with something, I then imported that character to Awakening for a run through that, and alas, nothing from Morrigan in my pack that I saw. Pretty underwhelming DLC on the whole to be honest, at least the constant party banter was a nice touch and that boss was an interesting creature before you get to Morrigan, again though it felt kinda "half finished" like you could tell they had more they wanted to do but due to whatever factors weren't able to. At least thats the impression it left me with. .

she leaves a book for you i think, and taking into account that witch hunt happens after awakenings (awakenings takes place 6 months after origins while witch hunt takes place after a year or so) i guess we won't know what was in that book as only some equippable items are passed on to other playthroughs.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 07 octobre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Vaeliorin]

Felfenix wrote...
There is no reason to choose between the werewolves and elves, for example, unless you just want to be mean and kill one side. There is no reason to kill Connor or his mother, too.

There are plenty of in-character reasons to choose those options.  I had a character who killed Isolde because she wanted to talk to the demon, and also to upset the political balance.  She figured that while the immediate threat would be enough to temporarily suspend Eamon's grief, once that was gone he would retreat from public life and there would be a political gap of which she could take advantage.

I had a character kill the werewolves because they'd already attacked her multiple times, and she had no trust that they would honor any agreement to parley.  In fact, I'd almost say that not trusting them to honor their agreement to parley is probably the most rational course, as they've made no attempt to do anything previously other than chase you off or kill you.

So unless you only care about making the "right" choices or "winning" or something like that, instead of roleplaying the character that you've created, I don't think there's any reason to avoid any particular options other than those that go against the personality of your character.