309 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
just did Cadash and am now going to get a piece of the mirror from the ruin, but having read others opinions and hearing it discussed during a podcast or two, I fully expect to know no more about the DR or Morrigan's plans once I'm done with it. And its really unfortunate that it's another case where Bioware either rushed due to a change in scheduling of  DLC, or half assed it for the sake of holding it over to be answered in DA2 or DA3 should DA3 be made.

Oh yeah, you won't learn anything about Morrigan's plans at all really. You learn a couple tiny bits of information like the sex of the Old God Baby if you did the DR, but thats about it beyond more vague, frustratingly evasive  non-answers from Morrigan. I personally can't shake the feeling that Witch Hunt was supposed to be part of something more- it just seems odd to take the DR which is the biggest choice from Origins and then seeing as Morrigan isn't in DA2, not do anything with it until maybe DA3 years from now. Maybe DA2 is setting up more stuff ofr DA3, but still, I don't get it....

Actually it left me with more questions and very few answers, and even though it says she leaves you with something, I then imported that character to Awakening for a run through that, and alas, nothing from Morrigan in my pack that I saw. Pretty underwhelming DLC on the whole to be honest, at least the constant party banter was a nice touch and that boss was an interesting creature before you get to Morrigan, again though it felt kinda "half finished" like you could tell they had more they wanted to do but due to whatever factors weren't able to. At least thats the impression it left me with. .

she leaves a book for you i think, and taking into account that witch hunt happens after awakenings (awakenings takes place 6 months after origins while witch hunt takes place after a year or so) i guess we won't know what was in that book as only some equippable items are passed on to other playthroughs.

I wasn't aware the timeline played a role in it, since I had just finished a playthrough Origins, bit the bullet since I had 1000 Biopoints wasting away, and figured I'd go right into Witch Hunt since I had Alistair do the DR. It wasn't a terrible DLC, just really short like most of them sadly, and didn't really do a thing to answer any questions or provide any closure. I did finally find a 2 hander, like right at the end, shame they didn't give one to Sandal or something, it was less fun not being able to use skills for most of it since I stupidly forgot they strip Starfang. Though I suppose thats my own fault in a way.

[Morroian]

Anarya wrote...

Yes and no. I want a third option in places where it makes sense. Getting Zathrian to break the curse makes sense. Leaving Connor to rampage around Redcliffe and then finding that nothing happened does not make a lot of sense to me. I don't want it to be impossible to get a good outcome in all situations but I also don't want a guarantee that there is at least one way to "win", every time.

What Anarya said.

[Ortaya Alevli]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Hawke loses his left arm, you can't dual-wield anymore or hold two-handed weapons. Make this just for the people who never want good ending. Please.

Kreia much?

Tri-wielding.

Kreia tri-wielded at one point, too.

[21121313]

I like the one bad, one good, and 2 morally gray options.

I think people keep forgetting that the point of most games is to end with a "good" ending, and by making all the choices morally gray it takes the good/evil options off the table.

There should always be a third, if not fourth option. Not everyone wants to be in the middle, and certainly not me.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Morroian wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Yes and no. I want a third option in places where it makes sense. Getting Zathrian to break the curse makes sense. Leaving Connor to rampage around Redcliffe and then finding that nothing happened does not make a lot of sense to me. I don't want it to be impossible to get a good outcome in all situations but I also don't want a guarantee that there is at least one way to "win", every time.

What Anarya said.

Agreed.

[blothulfur]

Desire demon overcomes Jowan and escapes redcliffe leaving connor in the same coma as his dad, and a powerful boss fight later on?

[0x30A88]

Redcliffe:
The demon spares the life of Isolde and those others, because it was part of the deal. And in fact, the demon allowed Isolde to go to Theegan. So it won't just change it's mind...and two days is not that long. I have killed Isolde twice, due to that the circle tower option doesn't jsut apppear when you are to take your choise.

Bercilian forest:
The werewolves can be cured at the same time as if they were killed, the Lady is keeping the werewolves from just simply attacking you when you discuss how to deal with the situation.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 07 octobre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Reaverwind]

Gisle Aune wrote...

Redcliffe:
The demon spares the life of Isolde and those others, because it was part of the deal. And in fact, the demon allowed Isolde to go to Theegan. So it won't just change it's mind...and two days is not that long. I have killed Isolde twice, due to that the circle tower option doesn't jsut apppear when you are to take your choise.

a) Sparing the village or the castle staff was NOT part of the deal.

Game lore itself emphasizes trusting demons is foolish

c) Demon used Isolde to snare Teagan

d) Leaving the village prior to entering the castle results in the village being wiped out - no reasoning person would assume this danger has lessened with the Abomination still at large

[nightcobra]

Reaverwind wrote...

Gisle Aune wrote...

Redcliffe:
The demon spares the life of Isolde and those others, because it was part of the deal. And in fact, the demon allowed Isolde to go to Theegan. So it won't just change it's mind...and two days is not that long. I have killed Isolde twice, due to that the circle tower option doesn't jsut apppear when you are to take your choise.

a) Sparing the village or the castle staff was NOT part of the deal.

Game lore itself emphasizes trusting demons is foolish

c) Demon used Isolde to snare Teagan

d) Leaving the village prior to entering the castle results in the village being wiped out - no reasoning person would assume this danger has lessened with the Abomination still at large

i trusted both herren and wade and i was fine:whistle:

[Shepard Lives]

Dave of Canada wrote...

One of the things I loved about Dragon Age is there was often times the harsh and difficult choices between two morally grey points, such as killing Isolde or Connor. You ponder on these choices, you sit there and cry as you're about to pick that one importa- Wait a minute. What's with the "Go to the Mage Tower" option?

Third options are the options that present the best alternative for everybody, such as the one mentioned above or curing the werewolves. I could mention a few others from Mass Effect as well but I won't bother. I'm curious how the community feels about this, in Dragon Age 2 do you want more of these third options or would you prefer them removed completely? What is your reasoning?

Myself I'd remove them, I love to have these tough decisions that people would argue for days on the forums about what one is the right and wrong choice. You wouldn't be able to walk away into the sunset with a smile on your face.

Thoughts?

The Mage tower was a unique case. I shamelessly metagamed on my first playthrough to see if Connor would or wouldn't skewer the poor bastards while I was away kicking abomination ass. He wouldn't, so third option and everyone is happy.

But really, how many more of those cases were there? Healing the werewolves wasn't the same thing: it was actually the exact opposite. By getting the mages to help with Connor you'd get everything and lose nothing, while by breaking Psycho Cueball's curse you'd lose both his and Swiftrunner's help in the final battle despite it being the safest and most morally correct thing to do (whereas leaving Redcliffe for the Circle was hazardous and irresponsible).

Are there any other examples of third options? I don't remember any.

I can see why people would want to have them removed, but remember that people wouldn't "argue" about them. Two words: Rachni Queen.

I'd be fine with having a single (important) third option like in DAO. I always thought that one of the underlying themes of the game was that even in such a Crapsack World, good always finds a way. The Redcliffe situation was merely the most prominent example of saying "screw cynicism, I want to save everything that can be saved or lose everything trying .

TL;DR I'd be fine with a single prominent opportunity to take a third option.

Modifié par shepard_lives, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:02 .

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
So what's the problem?  People are dumb.  Alistair's no exception.

There's no problem with Alistair's reaction. There's a problem with what the game allows you to do.

Of course not.  The game doesn't know what they are.  The only way that could ever work is if the game decides what your beliefs are.

And that would make the game unplayable without a hundred-page treatise on the PC's background.

The game is already unplayable, in a strict roleplaying sense, by preventing certain characters from existing. There is no character I would create that would not be argumentative or otherwise call out Alistair or Morrigan in a situation like that. But this choice in DA:O is impossible.

This is why I do not mind heavy character restrictions. Because these open-ended options have almost always failed to allow me to play the characters that I like. I am just too idiosyncratic for Bioware.

In contrast, a game like the Witcher (that is absurdly restrictive) at the very least allows you reactivity in the world, because you can pick mental states and have the world react to them.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
I completely agree that the DR scene is pure Plot Hammer and quite frankly I'd say its easily the absolute worst scene in Origins and practically breaks the game. Its the biggest "choice" moment in the game and yet Morrigan gives you absolutely nothing to make your decision off of beyond very very vague abstractions. And role playing wise, the scene is absolutely cookie cutter and pretty much plays out the same whether you ditched Morrigan at Lothering or romanced her all the way through. And even if you did the DR, you never see any consequence from it- so the whole Old God Baby could still become a GOTCHA! moment down the road, depending on how its handled.

Hell, the whole Morrigan plot line could be one big GOTCHA! moment considering how we really know zilch about her and her plans.

The real issue, IMO, is that it switches the plot. Up to that point, everything is about defeating the Blight (this particular blight, in fact, which is what makes DA:O so uninteresting as a game - there is literally nothing you do to change Ferelden or the world other than return it to essentially the same state it had at the start of the game). Then, suddenly, you have a secret ritual ploped onto you by Morrigan, you find out your role as a Grey Warden is to sacrifice your life to kill the archdemon, and you learn nothing about the blight, is role in the world, etc. etc.

It makes the Warden so very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. I don't like games that make my character unimportant puppets.

[Reaverwind]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
So what's the problem?  People are dumb.  Alistair's no exception.

There's no problem with Alistair's reaction. There's a problem with what the game allows you to do.

Of course not.  The game doesn't know what they are.  The only way that could ever work is if the game decides what your beliefs are.

And that would make the game unplayable without a hundred-page treatise on the PC's background.

The game is already unplayable, in a strict roleplaying sense, by preventing certain characters from existing. There is no character I would create that would not be argumentative or otherwise call out Alistair or Morrigan in a situation like that. But this choice in DA:O is impossible.

This is why I do not mind heavy character restrictions. Because these open-ended options have almost always failed to allow me to play the characters that I like. I am just too idiosyncratic for Bioware.

In contrast, a game like the Witcher (that is absurdly restrictive) at the very least allows you reactivity in the world, because you can pick mental states and have the world react to them.

Problem with the Redcliffe questline is the abrupt change of focus from the welfare of its people as a whole to the welfare of a single person without any logical explanation. When writing Alistair having a tantrum, Bioware should have included the option of reminding Alistair about the big picture.

Witcher was a refreshing change of pace - there was NO bias toward any particular choice made, and each choice had different, long-reaching outcomes. That adds a great deal to replayability and belieavability in my book, and encourages exploring different options.

[Sherbet Lemon]

In Exile wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
I completely agree that the DR scene is pure Plot Hammer and quite frankly I'd say its easily the absolute worst scene in Origins and practically breaks the game. Its the biggest "choice" moment in the game and yet Morrigan gives you absolutely nothing to make your decision off of beyond very very vague abstractions. And role playing wise, the scene is absolutely cookie cutter and pretty much plays out the same whether you ditched Morrigan at Lothering or romanced her all the way through. And even if you did the DR, you never see any consequence from it- so the whole Old God Baby could still become a GOTCHA! moment down the road, depending on how its handled.

Hell, the whole Morrigan plot line could be one big GOTCHA! moment considering how we really know zilch about her and her plans.

The real issue, IMO, is that it switches the plot. Up to that point, everything is about defeating the Blight (this particular blight, in fact, which is what makes DA:O so uninteresting as a game - there is literally nothing you do to change Ferelden or the world other than return it to essentially the same state it had at the start of the game). Then, suddenly, you have a secret ritual ploped onto you by Morrigan, you find out your role as a Grey Warden is to sacrifice your life to kill the archdemon, and you learn nothing about the blight, is role in the world, etc. etc.

It makes the Warden so very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. I don't like games that make my character unimportant puppets.

While I can certainly see your point of view, I think we are given some hints as to the nature of that decision and the danger it represents.  This happens through other characters,  (at least that's what I think).  In particular I think Wynne speaks to the nature of a grey warden.  Regardless of what you think you of her preachiness, her words can be taken as a sort of context clue.  There is no doubt about it, you are endangering the world by going through with the dark ritual and for purely selfish reasons.  If we place this in contrast to Wynne's "love is selfish speech" and "grey warden's shielding man" allegory, then I'd argue that the whole game alludes toward that decision.  I don't see it as "gotcha" more "aha."  This is the moment that Wynne has been describing.  Morrigan herself makes a similar assertion when she asks a similar question though not in the same vein if the Warden is in a relationship with Alistair. Again, we see that sacrifice versus selfishness can be gleaned as a prominent theme.  At least, that's how I see it.

How you see that importance is in relation to your point of view.  For me, the Warden is one prominent figure in Ferelden's history, but she is not the be all end all.  For me this makes the game unique.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

This is why I do not mind heavy character restrictions. Because these open-ended options have almost always failed to allow me to play the characters that I like. I am just too idiosyncratic for Bioware.

And yet I managed to play a coward with social anxiety problems.

[captain.subtle]

Hmm...



let me think....



Why not make the third option really really unprofitable (like you miss Ageless or Andruil's Blessing) So that goodness is the prize for itself?

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

captain.subtle wrote...

Hmm...

let me think....

Why not make the third option really really unprofitable (like you miss Ageless or Andruil's Blessing) So that goodness is the prize for itself?

No. Why would you want to penalize those who take the 3rd option? Afterall, it's only your way of playing that matters to you. You can take the first 2 options and completely ignore the 3rd option, I can pick the 3rd choice if I want to.

Modifié par The Hardest Thing In The World, 07 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
The real issue, IMO, is that it switches the plot. Up to that point, everything is about defeating the Blight (this particular blight, in fact, which is what makes DA:O so uninteresting as a game - there is literally nothing you do to change Ferelden or the world other than return it to essentially the same state it had at the start of the game). Then, suddenly, you have a secret ritual ploped onto you by Morrigan, you find out your role as a Grey Warden is to sacrifice your life to kill the archdemon, and you learn nothing about the blight, is role in the world, etc. etc.

It makes the Warden so very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. I don't like games that make my character unimportant puppets.

This is one of the rare times when I disagree with you, I guess. Are you sure you mean "unimportant" there?

Traditionally, the role of the hero is often to restore the world to some status quo ante, which is simply presumed to be good. It's an important role for him, but he doesn't have a lot of choice about his role precisely because he is a hero. Don't confuse being important with having agency.

Besides that, the Warden does have some effect on the world beyond stopping the Blight. At the end of the game there are new monarchs in Ferelden and Orzammar, whom the Warden essentially chooses from what's admittedly a very limited menu. And a few other things.

[captain.subtle]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Hmm...

let me think....

Why not make the third option really really unprofitable (like you miss Ageless or Andruil's Blessing) So that goodness is the prize for itself?

No. Why would you want to penalize those who take the 3rd option? Afterall, it's only your way of playing that matters to you. You can take the first 2 options and completely ignore the 3rd option, I can pick the 3rd choice if I want to.

yup. i think I had just become idiotically addled. You are right.... Seriously.

[PsyrenY]

OP, I would say that the really meaty decisions are merely the ones whose effects we can't see yet. Legion's loyalty didn't have "a third option," but that's not what made it interesting; rather, it was the fact that we had no idea what impact our choice would have, and so we had to operate totally on ethics.



Lukas raised Tali's loyalty, but that's not a finished story yet either. Sure it looks rosy that you can exonerate both Tali and her father, but recall that this third option is also the only one where Tali can be proposed as a potential admiral. Sounds great, right? It is, until you remember she's as hot for a Geth war as Han' Gerrell. Saving her in such a way that she ends up with power might not be so "rosy" after all.

[tmp7704]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

No. Why would you want to penalize those who take the 3rd option? Afterall, it's only your way of playing that matters to you. You can take the first 2 options and completely ignore the 3rd option, I can pick the 3rd choice if I want to.

There can be a problem with that -- ignoring what appears clearly be most practical/"best" option once the character actually learns about such possibility... involves very much playing an idiot. A difference between "pick between getting shot in knee or having your balls cut off" and "pick between getting shot in knee, having your balls cut off ... or a million dollars, no strings attached".

[AlanC9]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...
No. Why would you want to penalize those who take the 3rd option? Afterall, it's only your way of playing that matters to you. You can take the first 2 options and completely ignore the 3rd option, I can pick the 3rd choice if I want to.

But then why would any rational being not pick the 3rd choice?

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

No. Why would you want to penalize those who take the 3rd option? Afterall, it's only your way of playing that matters to you. You can take the first 2 options and completely ignore the 3rd option, I can pick the 3rd choice if I want to.

There can be a problem with that -- ignoring what appears clearly be most practical/"best" option once the character actually learns about such possibility... involves very much playing an idiot. A difference between "pick between getting shot in knee or having your balls cut off" and "pick between getting shot in knee, having your balls cut off ... or a million dollars, no strings attached".

There's no problem.There is only a problem because what you illustrated is absurd.  Stick to the Mage tower quest, you pick the first 2 options if you think going to the mage tower to get the mages help will take too much time. 

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...
The real issue, IMO, is that it switches the plot. Up to that point, everything is about defeating the Blight (this particular blight, in fact, which is what makes DA:O so uninteresting as a game - there is literally nothing you do to change Ferelden or the world other than return it to essentially the same state it had at the start of the game). Then, suddenly, you have a secret ritual ploped onto you by Morrigan, you find out your role as a Grey Warden is to sacrifice your life to kill the archdemon, and you learn nothing about the blight, is role in the world, etc. etc.

It makes the Warden so very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. I don't like games that make my character unimportant puppets.

I think the issue is that for all of the "big" decisions like the who you sided with or the result of the DR- you never see any consequences to those actions outside of the epilogue slides- and even there you get nothing with respect to the DR choice. If you go through with the DR, the Old God Baby may change the world, but who the hell knows when we'll see that or if that will just be swept under the rug as a dinky cameo in the future like most consequences to branching choices seem to.

[upsettingshorts]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...
There's no problem.There is only a problem because what you illustrated is absurd.  Stick to the Mage tower quest, you pick the first 2 options if you think going to the mage tower to get the mages help will take too much time. 

Right!  And we better concentrate on Sovereign or else we're all going to die! We can't risk saving the Council!

...oh, right.

Major choices without significant consequences are cheap, easy, and in hindsight extremely frustrating.