296 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

mosor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

When you look through the confusing three-squad gameplay mechanics, you may see that Zaeed is the boss on Zorya.

When he says, "Shepard,  this is my show. Let me run it and then I'm all yours", I'm OK with that. basically that's how every loyalty mission is set up. You can either stick to what the starring squadmate wants, or do it your way (sometimes to outright betray the squadmate). So it is with Zaeed.

You don't like Zaeed? Fine, you may as well uninstall the DLC. But pretending that you being dick to Zaeed is not personal is a standard issue paragon hypocrisy.

That's a good point. Though, controlling Shepard and having Zaeed as a finger puppet makes it difficult for most people to be aware of that. Not sure if you last point was directed at me. I always kill Vido. Killing Zaeed is especially silly if you recruited him early game, having him keep people alive during the suicide mission, only to kill him during his loyalty mission because somehow the suicide mission wasn't enough for you to trust him.

And I thought I was a heartless renegade!

Of course the last point is not at you. It's at evil paragons who blah-blah about doing the Galaxy a favor by being an utter dick to a guy whom they could just show at the door to, if they don't like him much. I really, really hope Zaeed will return to do something really ugly to them in the ME3 epilogue. Like setting their LI on fire and making them watch.

[Arijharn]

mosor wrote...
 Doing it the other way is defintiely more heroic though.

Maybe I'm motivated by fear though. Being burnt to death is definitely a way I would never ever want to go out. As things go, I'd rank it higher (meaning worse) than drowning.

[mosor]

Arijharn wrote...

mosor wrote...
 Doing it the other way is defintiely more heroic though.

Maybe I'm motivated by fear though. Being burnt to death is definitely a way I would never ever want to go out. As things go, I'd rank it higher (meaning worse) than drowning.

If it makes you feel better, you'd probably die of suffocation first Think of the burning as a free creamation.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

mosor wrote...
 Doing it the other way is defintiely more heroic though.

Maybe I'm motivated by fear though. Being burnt to death is definitely a way I would never ever want to go out. As things go, I'd rank it higher (meaning worse) than drowning.

There is an old stoic rule about relative ugliness of different deaths and tortures:

If it's acute, it's short. If it's long, it's bearable.

[Arijharn]

I'd prefer my cremation to have nothing to do with my death though, maybe that's just me though

[Arijharn]

mosor wrote...

If it makes you feel better, you'd probably die of suffocation first Think of the burning as a free creamation.

I'm sure that was Joan of Arc's first thought too

[JaegerBane]

mosor wrote...
What Zaeed did by starting that explosion also showed a lot of ingenuity. What may have resulted in fighting an overwhelming force is now something that is managable.  The only problem with that decision was that he never cleared it with you first. However, I must say it's very creative. A person like that can be a valuable asset. Especially considering all that rage is directed at one person, while in any other situation he is quite level headed.

Regardless, I usually go after Vido anyway. Depending on when you do Zaeed's loyalty, you come across a few N7 missions where commited acts of butchery and piracy. A guy like that is a danger to the galaxy. He should be put down like the dog that he is.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Zaeed can't think outside the box. Indeed, I got the impression that was why Cerberus hired him.

However, it isn't just a case of him 'not clearing it with you first'. It's not like he did a Wrex style situation and just killed a random merc on his own initiative. Bear in mind the whole reason you were there was to liberate that refinery - that was the mission. Zaeed took it upon himself to jeopardise the entire objective just to get through the front door.

If he's willing to do that just because he's got a problem with one of the mercs, what reason would shep have to believe the guy could control himself on the suicide mission? What if he decided that he's had enough and charges off? What if he does a shadow broker and decides to sell Shep and the normandy to the Collectors? The guy just wasn't stable - Shep has no way of knowing that if he gave him an order, he'd follow it. That isn't a great situation to be in when on the back end of the Omega 4 relay.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 10 octobre 2010 - 07:56 .

[Hela]

He did have an ulterior motive aside from liberating the refinery, yes. It is to be considered though, that he´s not that much of a loose cannon - he still follows you, even if stating that should Vido get away, Shepard can kiss the loyalty goodbye.



Even with Vido gone he will follow you; if not loyal, he simply states he will do what was asked of him, nothing more (ok, point there is of course how much can you trust him with what´s at stake. I was just trying to point out that he has a level head when it comes to anything other that desperately wanting to kill a guy who shot him in the head two decades ago... just sayin´.)

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...
No, it is better from a purely objective standpoint too.

There is no such thing as a purely objective standpoint unless you are all knowing god. You, me and Shepard are just humans and therefore our opinions, morals and emotional response will always cloud our judgment. Your so called "purely objective standpoint" is nothing but the way you choose to read a complicated situation based on your own opinions.

You want this to be easy; you and your Shepards are always right and all who disagrees are wrong. But as I see it one of the main themes of ME is that the work of a spectre is always more complicated than you thought it would be, kind of like how it is for us in real life. Wouldn't the work of a spectre be rather pointless if it meant perfectly right or wrong choices?

[Arijharn]

I think the issue is lov, that where possible you shouldn't let issues that may result in personal attachment affect your decisions... and I'm not talking just about 'falling in lov' (har, see what I did thar? ) like what Ashley talks about in her letter to her sister or something, but anything that might compromise you in the course of your duties.



Like, issues such as deciding who holds a rearguard position should be made by the one who is most capable, maybe that would mean the guy who wants to go home to meet his 1year old for the first time would be that person... I don't pretend that this is an easy subject though. Obviously if they're all equally capable you might not choose that person, but somebody has to be the one.



I don't think you should be immune to compassion, but maybe there's a time and place for everything.

[JaegerBane]

Hela wrote...

He did have an ulterior motive aside from liberating the refinery, yes. It is to be considered though, that he´s not that much of a loose cannon - he still follows you, even if stating that should Vido get away, Shepard can kiss the loyalty goodbye.

That isn't good enough. Just because he says he'll follow you doesn't mean he will, and frankly his actions indicate that his word means ****. Essentially, Shep has to *make* him understand why all this tomfoolery calls into question his validity on the team. If he can't manage that, then ultimately Shep has to decide whether to just leave him.

The narrative make it fairly clear Zaeed's realised that he's part of a team... it's the part where he realises that his own actions have left him pinned under a red hot metal girder and his survival depends on a team mate helping him out.

[StarcloudSWG]

To be honest, I read Zaeed's "contract" to recover the Eldfell-Ashland refinery to be an excuse, a cover, for Zaeed to go after Vido. I wouldn't put it past Zaeed to lie about having a contract in the first place. It's in a system with a heavy Blue Suns presence; if I recall correctly, the planet the refinery was on is the "headquarters" planet for the Suns.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 10 octobre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Schneidend]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

To be honest, I read Zaeed's "contract" to recover the Eldfell-Ashland refinery to be an excuse, a cover, for Zaeed to go after Vido. I wouldn't put it past Zaeed to lie about having a contract in the first place. It's in a system with a heavy Blue Suns presence; if I recall correctly, the planet the refinery was on is the "headquarters" planet for the Suns.

I distinctly got this impression, too.

Still, my canon Shepard punches Zaeed for not being a team player and then proceeds to go after Vido. The Blue Suns are essentially a criminal organization, and putting down their major operations discourages them from putting together anything beyond their scope like the Korlus cloning facility.

[Hela]

JaegerBane wrote...

The narrative make it fairly clear Zaeed's realised that he's part of a team... it's the part where he realises that his own actions have left him pinned under a red hot metal girder and his survival depends on a team mate helping him out.

I just reason that he is capable of doing his payment´s worth after all - and all of the erratic behaviour on that particular mission is due to venegeance. All in all, he was a crappy people-person and even worse in corporate dealings. He co-founded the BS and then got shot in the face.  Not somebody who could be accused of carrying out a long-held grudge (don´t you dare call it a goddamn grudge!) But still. He speaks of his missions and based on his given reputation - he´s been of a part of a team before and had success. Well... this one time at least. With the possibly explosive girl.

You make a valid point though. All of his former team-members ( I stretch my memory there and could be wrong, see the explosive girl part) were probably expendable in his eyes anyway. That I agree with - but not with stating him to be expendable at the account of being unable to follow orders outside this particular mission. More precicely, when you decide right there and then when presented the choice of going after Vido or saving the workers, you´d still have gone through the bridge sequence where he explains his motives. It presents a different wiewpoint for the coming-up parts. IMO.

Or perhaps I like the gudamn bastard too much...

Pardon for deviating even more from the OP.

If your a spectre, you pretty much have free reign, right? They have different species operating under the same mandate so all bring in their own personal morals. You´ll be just fine.

[Schneidend]

DPSSOC wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

^That'd require passing up on a 'you can murder and do whatever you want and get away with it' pass. No thanks

Ah yes but you still retain the "You can murder and do whatever you want and get away with it" pass. from having a long list of dead people who tried to stop you from doing what you want or keep you from getting away with it.  It's essentially the Batman Card where yes what you're doing is illegal but who's honestly dumb enough to try and stop you.

Even then, it's all rather moot, as the Shepards who told the Council to stuff it have most likely opted to remain legally dead, too.

You can't arrest a dead man.

[Schattenkeil]

 You're not really a Spectre in Mass Effect 2. If you were that means you'd be reporting to the council and not the Illusive Man. But the council doesn't really recognize you, even if you formally get your title back. And as a Spectre your're bound to do whatever you think is best to get the job done. Different Spectres follow very different routes to solve the problem. Those moral questions do not exist to the same degree for the characters in play than to the players. Shepard does whatever she thinks is right, you just gotta figure out what that is as player.

The only one decision I remember where I think that my Shepard would have been pretty troubled about it is when I let the rachni queen go. Personally I think I made a break with the computer running at that point and took half an hour to decide. I had read all the articles there were on rachni and was perfectly aware on what that could mean... yet I didn't want to kill the only one rachni who ever chose the path of diplomacy and communication - they should have done that a thousand years ago. The codex said that no rachni ever chose to communicate, let alone negotiate before, and that was what really struck me in the situation. If the queen hadn't tried to converse with me I had definitely destroyed her before I left. Especially since it seemed obvious that the rachni were not quite as extinct as they should be. It was one hell of a gamble. But a galaxy where all species have their place is exactly what I fight for, so I must stand up to this ideal. I would have completely understood if the council had fired me afterwards though.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 10 octobre 2010 - 08:48 .

[anmiro]

 The mediator between brain and muscle must be the heart.

[Moiaussi]

Schneidend wrote...

Even then, it's all rather moot, as the Shepards who told the Council to stuff it have most likely opted to remain legally dead, too.

You can't arrest a dead man.

Besides the fact that you can simply declare them living again and arrest them, you can always ensure the database is correct by way of summary execution. It isn't murder to kill a dead man either.

[Moiaussi]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

To be honest, I read Zaeed's "contract" to recover the Eldfell-Ashland refinery to be an excuse, a cover, for Zaeed to go after Vido. I wouldn't put it past Zaeed to lie about having a contract in the first place. It's in a system with a heavy Blue Suns presence; if I recall correctly, the planet the refinery was on is the "headquarters" planet for the Suns.

Does that really matter? The instructions from TIM are regarding a contract to free the refinery. Either Zaheed also successfully lied to TIM, or TIM inexplicably lied to you about something that makes no sense to lie to you about. There would be plenty of reason for a contract to take down Vido, or for a mission to do so without needing any mercenary contract excuse. Vido is, by all accounts, someone it would be reasonable for Shepard to take down whether paragon or renegade. If Shepard had been informed of the real mission, the plant likely would never have needed to be endangered. Just ambush Vido. Ideally, take out his escape gunship first. Booby trap it or otherwise sabotage it.

But because Zaheed was untrustworthy, the mission became a lot more complex than it had to be.

[tallinn]

Shandepared wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Since you and your Shepards don't know how their own morals and decisions will affect the future either that is just your own opinion, not some superiour logic.

It is superior logic. It is safer to kill the rachni queen, safer to kill Balak, safer to concentrate on Sovereign, safer to keep the Collector base.

The fact that I base my decisions around not knowing the future is what makes my logic superior.

IIRC the battle situation when it comes to the decision to either attack the Sovereign or save the Council Ship was: the Council Ship was under attack by the geth fleet where the alliance fleet was taking heavy losses in fighting the Sovereign to no avail. The odds to beat the geth attacking the Council Ship were better then continuing an attack on the Sovereign that would probably lead to nothing more then more downed alliance ships (and the loss of the Council Ship).  It makes no sense to fight where you can't win. Saving the Council Ship is the correct military decision.

Keeping the Collector base without putting faith into the Illusive Man is impossible. Destroying it is the safe approach here. The Renegade route is the risky one.

Putting faith or not into the Rachni Queen is a matter of personal taste, odds are even here to win or to lose either way. It turns out that the Paragon route is the wiser one.

And as it has been mentioned by another poster: not saving the workers in Zaeed's loyalty mission is completely unethical. No one man is so important to sacrifice other people for just getting him happily on board. As a matter of fact Zaeed is rather useless. And portrayed as a rude und unreliable character that would endanger any mission he is part of. Zaeeds loyality mission is a battle for leadership between Shephard and Zaeed as well. If Shephard would have followed Zaeeds route he would become 1st Officer of Zaeed, not the undisputed leader.

As a general rule do not overestimate the power of a single person to have on its own significant influence for the better or worse of the future of the whole thing™. Future as a whole is always made by millions of decisions of such as many men and women. You have no choice but to think optimistically.

[Casuist]

Zaeed loyalty mission:



Eldfell-Ashland funding is awarded to Shepard only on the Paragon route. Ergo, there's a (real) contract to liberate the facility. He took it with an ulterior motive, but that's a different matter.