296 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

Frybread76 wrote...

As far as Shepard himself?  No, he has not had any negative impact by Reaper tech, but he isn't a researcher who has spent days or weeks or years examing and tinkers with Reaper tech.  It seems like anyone else who studies it ends up going insane or gets indoctrinated.

And the Reaper IFF is a plot device, since you have no choice but to install it to advance in the game, unlike the thanix cannon or any of the other upgrades.

EDI is a neccessary evil, insofar as she is needed to clean up the mess from installing the Reaper IFF, which is a plot device.

Look, you're roleplaying Shepard. There is no such thing as a plot device when you're are roleplaying decisions. You only go on experience. Shepard has seen the potential of reaper tech as well as it's negatives.  Reaper tech enabled him to achieve his objective.

However, if you're going to dismiss that Shepard benefited from reaper tech by calling it a plot device. Then I really can do the same about indoctrinated reasearchers, and cerberus projects gone wrong. All they are plot devices created so you the player can shoot things. So they don't count in your arguments against reaper tech.

[Frybread76]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

To get the true answer you would need to ask the writers.  But you don't need to do any of the upgrades to complete the game.  You don't need the thanix cannon.  You do need the Reaper IFF but that is a plot device.  So you are wrong when you say the thanix cannon is neccessary.

From an in-character perspective, there is no true answer. And even if BioWare claims one thing, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the true answer. The paragon path is the choice BioWare seems to prefer, but it doesn't make it the right one or even the logical one.

All of your squad mates agree that it was the correct thing to destroy the base and not give it to Cerberus after you complete the mission.  That tells me it is the right choice, ethically, from an in-character perspective.  It might not be logical, I agree, but it is the morally correct choice, IMO.

I just wonder why there is no option to keep the Collector base and give it to the Alliance or the Council?  Maybe because it's a hardcore Renegade act that only an organization as cutthroat and immoral as Cerberus would approve of.

[Pacifien]

And as a reminder, if you can't make your comments without belittling the other poster, don't bother making the comment unless you'd like to be banned. This is not a response to the post directly before this as it is a response to other posts that have been made in this thread. Thank you.

[Arijharn]

Personally I would sell my soul to the devil if it meant I could permanently halt the Reaper's advance, so to me the Collector Base and those 'moral' arguments are pointless in the great scheme of things.



Having said that, I'm actually a paragade. I'd rather help people out when I can, but I try not to have emotional responses override what I feel to be the bigger picture. The Reapers need to be stopped, not me smooth over my ruffled moral feathers.

[Frybread76]

mosor wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

As far as Shepard himself?  No, he has not had any negative impact by Reaper tech, but he isn't a researcher who has spent days or weeks or years examing and tinkers with Reaper tech.  It seems like anyone else who studies it ends up going insane or gets indoctrinated.

And the Reaper IFF is a plot device, since you have no choice but to install it to advance in the game, unlike the thanix cannon or any of the other upgrades.

EDI is a neccessary evil, insofar as she is needed to clean up the mess from installing the Reaper IFF, which is a plot device.

Look, you're roleplaying Shepard. There is no such thing as a plot device when you're are roleplaying decisions. You only go on experience. Shepard has seen the potential of reaper tech as well as it's negatives.  Reaper tech enabled him to achieve his objective.

However, if you're going to dismiss that Shepard benefited from reaper tech by calling it a plot device. Then I really can do the same about indoctrinated reasearchers, and cerberus projects gone wrong. All they are plot devices created so you the player can shoot things. So they don't count in your arguments against reaper tech.

Reaper tech enabled him to complete his objective, but also nearly derailed that objective.  It also seems to drive anyone who studies it insane.

Reaper tech seems to be just as dangerous, or even moreso, as it is beneficial.  I think it would be too much trouble to invest heavily in.

[Schneidend]

Shandepared wrote...

Without the Collector base all we have is scraps. We need more than that.

Scraps will have to do, because we can't afford to lose any good people if the gamble doesn't pay off. It's just like the rachni queen. It is a risk, and unecessary risks simply are not acceptable.

[tommyt_1994]

Arijharn wrote...

Personally I would sell my soul to the devil if it meant I could permanently halt the Reaper's advance, so to me the Collector Base and those 'moral' arguments are pointless in the great scheme of things.

Having said that, I'm actually a paragade. I'd rather help people out when I can, but I try not to have emotional responses override what I feel to be the bigger picture. The Reapers need to be stopped, not me smooth over my ruffled moral feathers.

Nice to see someone else who thinks as I do. The majority of arguments for Paragon actions like the CB decision are backed by personal morals and feelings about Cerberus/TIM. When galactic extinction is the issue, you cannot let your morals impede you from making the choice that will best benefit you in stopping the reapers. You gotta look at the big picture here

[Arijharn]

Just because we study it doesn't mean we actually have to use it. Perhaps we learnt the awesome power of the Thanix cannons, but perhaps we thought that the way the Thanix cannon generates power to be more powerful in certain circumstances than the actual liquid tungsten bolts?



Basically, we wont know how effective Reaper tech is before we seek to understand it, and in any case we have to understand certain aspects of it like ways to bypass it's shield technology and how to nullify indoctrination to even be combat effective regardless.

[Frybread76]

So where does the quest to salvage Reaper tech stop? Does Cerberus just study Collector weapons, or do they go all the way and study how a Reaper is made? I mean, if making Reapers is the best way to counter the Reaper invasion, that would be what a Renegade Shepard would choose, right? The morals or ethics be damned.

[Arijharn]

Why would you need to make Reapers? I need to understand how their defenses work, and understanding how they are made (but not building them) helps a great deal.



I would say though, to argue your point, that to save the galaxy you have to sacrifice half of it, then perhaps that's going too far, but I would sacrifice 1000 to save trillions absolutely.

[Spectre_907]

Shandepared wrote...

I understand all of that but with the battle being conveyed shown to us only in a few brief cinematics and with our squadmates debating the situation on the mertis that the Council is important but that letting them die is tactically superior... I'm going to trust the narrative. Perhaps if we had a detailed layout of the entire battle I'd change my mind. However we really don't know very much about what was going on.

Well, we do know from squadmates that the Citadel arms were closed, leaving Sovereign isolated from the main battle. We could also deduce that geth ships were attacking the Ascension without help from Sovereign and that the Ascension was close to being destroyed from the distress call received. This would leave one to suspect that the geth would succeed in their destruction of the Ascension and just sit there. Furthermore, we know that Sovereign will be exposed with a large fleet fighting it from the squadmates.

Granted we do not have a detailed layout of the battlefield and cannot ascertain position or assistence from any turian cruisers, but it is possible to make the deduction from the narrative that there are geth ships near the Citadel which will shortly be free of opposition and that once free of opposition, Sovereign will be exposed and fighting a large fleet on it's own.

[Inverness Moon]

Frybread76 wrote...

All of your squad mates agree that it was the correct thing to destroy the base and not give it to Cerberus after you complete the mission.  That tells me it is the right choice, ethically, from an in-character perspective.  It might not be logical, I agree, but it is the morally correct choice, IMO.

The morally correct choice is irrelevant to me. And the fact that you admitted it might not be logical is important,  because moral choices aren't going to save the galaxy from the reapers. I thought all my squad mates, excluding Legion, were acting like short-sighted idiots after the mission. The fact that some of them seem to have one opinion before you make the choice and a different one afterwards just seems like bad writing on BioWare's part.

I just wonder why there is no option to keep the Collector base and give it to the Alliance or the Council?  Maybe because it's a hardcore Renegade act that only an organization as cutthroat and immoral as Cerberus would approve of.

You're not making sense. Keeping the base to study is neither cutthroat or immoral. In the words of Legion, the base is only data.

There is no doubt the Council or Alliance would want the base for them to study. Unfortunately for them, they spent the last two years denying reality.

Frybread76 wrote...

So where does the quest to salvage Reaper tech stop? Does Cerberus just study Collector weapons, or do they go all the way and study how a Reaper is made? I mean, if making Reapers is the best way to counter the Reaper invasion, that would be what a Renegade Shepard would choose, right? The morals or ethics be damned.

Of course they should study how a reaper is made. That is part of what the base is designed for, and the reapers are the things we need to destroy. However, don't assume that studying how a reaper is made means that we need to make one ourselves.

Making reapers to fight the reapers is an illogical course of actions. Reaper construction involves liquefying organics not because it is practical, but because it is apparently part of their twisted idea of ascendancy. It would be much smarter to arm our fleets with the same weapons and defenses that the reapers use.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:20 .

[Frybread76]

Arijharn wrote...

Why would you need to make Reapers? I need to understand how their defenses work, and understanding how they are made (but not building them) helps a great deal.

I would say though, to argue your point, that to save the galaxy you have to sacrifice half of it, then perhaps that's going too far, but I would sacrifice 1000 to save trillions absolutely.

But to understand how their defenses work you would need to study one. And it seems being near a Reaper, even a derelict one, causes indoctrination.  It's too dangerous, IMO.

And I could see Cerberus being stupid enough trying to build a Reaper if you give TIM the Collector base.  Look at how dumb their other experiments are and how they turned out.

[RiouHotaru]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Personally I would sell my soul to the devil if it meant I could permanently halt the Reaper's advance, so to me the Collector Base and those 'moral' arguments are pointless in the great scheme of things.

Having said that, I'm actually a paragade. I'd rather help people out when I can, but I try not to have emotional responses override what I feel to be the bigger picture. The Reapers need to be stopped, not me smooth over my ruffled moral feathers.

Nice to see someone else who thinks as I do. The majority of arguments for Paragon actions like the CB decision are backed by personal morals and feelings about Cerberus/TIM. When galactic extinction is the issue, you cannot let your morals impede you from making the choice that will best benefit you in stopping the reapers. You gotta look at the big picture here

Feelings about Cerberus/TIM have a LOT of sway here, and you can't claim it's not important.  Cerberus wants to advance HUMAN interests, at the expense of everyone else.  If you can't trust TIM, then you wouldn't give him the base.  You wouldn't give something that valuable, that dangerous, to just anyone.

[GodWood]

Its not important when all life in the galaxy is at stake.

[Frybread76]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

All of your squad mates agree that it was the correct thing to destroy the base and not give it to Cerberus after you complete the mission.  That tells me it is the right choice, ethically, from an in-character perspective.  It might not be logical, I agree, but it is the morally correct choice, IMO.

The morally correct choice is irrelevant to me. And the fact that you admitted it might not be logical is important,  because moral choices aren't going to save the galaxy from the reapers. I thought all my squad mates, excluding Legion, were acting like short-sighted idiots after the mission. The fact that some of them seem to have one opinion before you make the choice and a different one afterwards just seems like bad writing on BioWare's part.

I just wonder why there is no option to keep the Collector base and give it to the Alliance or the Council?  Maybe because it's a hardcore Renegade act that only an organization as cutthroat and immoral as Cerberus would approve of.

You're not making sense. Keeping the base to study is neither cutthroat or immoral. In the words of Legion, the base is only data.

There is no doubt the Council or Alliance would want the base for them to study. Unfortunately for them, they spent the last two years denying reality.

Frybread76 wrote...

So where does the quest to salvage Reaper tech stop? Does Cerberus just study Collector weapons, or do they go all the way and study how a Reaper is made? I mean, if making Reapers is the best way to counter the Reaper invasion, that would be what a Renegade Shepard would choose, right? The morals or ethics be damned.

Of course they should study how a reaper is made. That is part of what the base is designed for, and the reapers are the things we need to destroy. However, don't assume that studying how a reaper is made means that we need to make one ourselves.

Making reapers to fight the reapers is an illogical course of actions. Reaper construction involves liquefying organics not because it is practical, but because it is apparently part of their twisted idea of ascendancy. It would be much smarter to arm our fleets with the same weapons and defenses that the reapers use.

Why would it being illogical matter? We're talking about Cerberus here, since it is the only organization that Shepard gives the Collector base to.  I wouldn't put it past TIM trying to build his own Reaper.

[RiouHotaru]

GodWood wrote...

Its not important when all life in the galaxy is at stake.

Yes it is important.  If I don't think TIM will use it to help save all life in the galaxy, then why would I let him have it?

[GodWood]

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Its not important when all life in the galaxy is at stake.

Yes it is important.  If I don't think TIM will use it to help save all life in the galaxy, then why would I let him have it?

Because the entire galaxy is at stake.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:00 .

[Arijharn]

Frybread76 wrote...
But to understand how their defenses work you would need to study one.

We've never before had the chance to inspect and understand their construction methods. You don't need to construct an automobile from a car factory in order to understand a car, you can understand a lot about a car just from understanding it's construction method.

And it seems being near a Reaper, even a derelict one, causes indoctrination.  It's too dangerous, IMO.

It is dangerous of course, but it's less dangerous than attempting any study when the Reapers arrive. How do you know for sure that the weapons we have now will even breach a Reaper's shields? (Note, that atm, not even Dreadnought fire power is sufficient). What, you going to throw dreadnoughts at them hoping that the next dreadnought that arrives will be enough? That is much more reckless, on the sum of things, than attempting to peek under a destroyed one's hood while it lays broken in some freaky basement... and additionally since Indoctrination takes a while to work you can rotate scientific crews to minimize the risks involved.
Failing that, you have Nazara's remains as well from the Citadel to increase your sample size (remember Clerk Bosker's statements during the Narahli Bhatia's quest from the original ME1?)

And I could see Cerberus being stupid enough trying to build a Reaper if you give TIM the Collector base.  Look at how dumb their other experiments are and how they turned out.

I don't view them as 'dumb' to be honest. I see the logic (even if distasteful) in their attempts to persecute them. Understanding of human biotic potential, mass produced expendable shock troopers with no weeping mothers crying over them... if it's ethically wrong to clone and mass produce soldiers that aren't human, why is it less ethically wrong for politicians to send people out to die? The soldiers may volunteer, but they still die, they still leave families behind.
Besides, their experiments 'failed' when some hero landed from a stealth frigate and deactivated their security systems. Cerberus failed only because they couldn't suspect the first human spectre would wreck their stuff. If I kicked down the door to your house, would you blame your house for its door being kicked down, or would you blame me for kicking down your door?

Modifié par Arijharn, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[RiouHotaru]

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Its not important when all life in the galaxy is at stake.

Yes it is important.  If I don't think TIM will use it to help save all life in the galaxy, then why would I let him have it?

Because the entire galaxy is at stake.

And if he doesn't use it to save all life in the galaxy then what was the point?

[Arijharn]

He lives inside the galaxy Riou, therefore it's in his interests to act accordingly.

[GodWood]

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Its not important when all life in the galaxy is at stake.

Yes it is important.  If I don't think TIM will use it to help save all life in the galaxy, then why would I let him have it?

Because the entire galaxy is at stake.

And if he doesn't use it to save all life in the galaxy then what was the point?

Many reasons:
~ So we win the war.
~ the Reapers are stopped from killing again.
~ the galaxy isn't wiped out.
(this being based on your assumption that TIM would simply let the other races perish)

[RiouHotaru]

Arijharn wrote...

He lives inside the galaxy Riou, therefore it's in his interests to act accordingly.

He lives to "serve humanity" and that "Cerberus is humanity".  He doesn't care if the rest of the galactic community is blended and served a Reaper smoothie.  He seeks to advance human interests, and human interests ALONE.

[Schneidend]

Riou, that's ridiculous. If Illusive Man lets the reapers gain enough ground to actually start making more reapers, then everybody has already lost, humanity included.

[RiouHotaru]

Schneidend wrote...

Riou, that's ridiculous. If Illusive Man lets the reapers gain enough ground to actually start making more reapers, then everybody has already lost, humanity included.

Okay, maybe that was a bad example, but you get the idea.  He puts human survival ahead of everyone else's.  And you really can't deny it.