296 réponses à ce sujet

[Spectre_907]

Shandepared wrote...

If I let it blow up it dies and the ships that were escorting it continue fighting the geth. If any geth survive they'll come at our flanks but this is space: the ships can spin around while still flying towards Sovereign and gun down the geth.

And the geth can simply wait until the cruisers have reached Sovereign and when the cruisers engage it, move in and begin their attack. We do not have anything to determine exact position of geth and Alliance ships.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 09 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

...and losing eight of my own in the process. Once again, I gain nothing.

Metagaming. You don't know that in advance. You don't even know that until ME2. By that time you learn that if you don't lose those ships you lose the entire ruddy Asari navy, at least until the Turians can pick up the slack, which since they have their own navy to rebuild may or may not happen any time soon.

Mousy (moiaussi) wrote...

From the cut scene, the DA is in serious trouble. It is barely holding on let alone fighting back. Why do you assume significant Geth casualties there?

What are you talking about?

Per the cut scene, their main drive is down, they are too close to use the main gun effectively even if it had sufficient power, and their shields are nearly down. You talk about 'what is left of the Geth' after taking it out. That implies you are expecting significant further geth casualties.

Nice jab messing up my name, btw. Is it impossible for you to respond without name calling?

Mousy (moiaussi) wrote...

I don't care how much of a threat you consider the other races. Presumably the Reapers are a much greater threat. If they are less defended it doesn't make it an easier war but a harder one, since the reapers can subvert and convert races efficiently.

What does this have to do with what I said?

It has to do with posts you have made in related threads dismissing the value of the Asari fleet. The fact that you don't understand how it relates to the decision as to whether to save the DA explains a lot.

It has strategic value in the longer term but during the actual battle against Sovereign it is a liability.

Which is back to my comment that we not only have to beat Sovereign, but to be ready for the main reaper fleet. Also, we disagree that it was in any way obviously bad tacticly to save it. You were right tactically, but that wasn't known til after the fact, just as the strategic results weren't known until after.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

And the geth can simply wait until the cruisers have reached Sovereign and when the cruisers engage it, move in and begin their attack.

A few cruisers can stay pointed at the geth. It's not like those are the only geth out there anywhere. The nebula swarming with them. Remember, those few geth attacking the DA were not the only geth in the battle.

 
Umm, the orders are either 'everything at Sovereign' or 'save the DA.' I don't recall a 'everything on Sovereign except keep a reserve to harrass the Geth' option.

[Spectre_907]

Shandepared wrote...

A few cruisers can stay pointed at the geth. It's not like those are the only geth out there anywhere. The nebula swarming with them. Remember, those few geth attacking the DA were not the only geth in the battle.

Sovereign could easily fire on those ships to allow the geth to continue their pursuit. Also, since we do not know the state of the Citadel fleet, the defending turian cruisers could have been wiped out. The geth attacking the DA could be the bulk of the geth fleet. I think it would be safer to save the DA and then concentrate on Sovereign lest we have to fight a war on two fronts.

[Spectre_907]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Umm, the orders are either 'everything at Sovereign' or 'save the DA.' I don't recall a 'everything on Sovereign except keep a reserve to harrass the Geth' option.

There are several destroyed geth ships around Sovereign.

Do you suppose they blew themselves up?

Aren't we working outside Shepard and company's frame of mind by assuming that?

[tommyt_1994]

This thread was designed to debate how morality should play in a spectre's decision making and if a spectre should sacrifice their own morals to make for the greater good of the galaxy. It wasn't made to debate the logical and tactical advantages of the end decision in ME1. Kinda off topic here guys

[Spectre_907]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

This thread was designed to debate how morality should play in a spectre's decision making and if a spectre should sacrifice their own morals to make for the greater good of the galaxy. It wasn't made to debate the logical and tactical advantages of the end decision in ME1. Kinda off topic here guys

Well, I originally said in an older reply that one could elect to save the DA out of a tactical advantage rather than on one's moral convictions. But I agree, it's a little off topic. Now at least.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

There are several destroyed geth ships around Sovereign.

Do you suppose they blew themselves up?

I suppose that after finding they can't hurt Sovereign after all, they defend themselves against the Geth. We do know that the Alliance lost more than 8 ships total though. We only know they lost 8 specificly saving the DA. Pretty sure we don't know the full comparative results.

And you are still dismissing the fact that we lose the entire Asari fleet..... or ignoring that fact....

Modifié par Moiaussi, 09 octobre 2010 - 04:51 .

[Moiaussi]

As for the question being off topic, it is a case study that is relevant to the OP.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I am with Shand on this one. We know essentially nothing about what's actually going on in the battlefield to make a realistic conclusion as to which option is better. As someone who did save the Council, I will say it goes like this:

- Concentrate on Sovereign (thus killing the Council): Most logical and tactical option for obvious reasons.
- Save the Destiny Ascension (thus saving the Council): Good choice, but requires exceptional amounts of faith on Shepard's part, and is more or less metagaming from a gameplay standpoint.
- Let the Council Die (outright killing the Council): Well, this is just overly monstrous. Let's just move on.

Just my opinion on how I view this decision.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:00 .

[Spectre_907]

And I think it is the ambiguity of the fact that we know nothing about the battle that it would be safer to save the Destiny Ascension and thus the decision can be made without resorting to faith or morals. Additionally, I will not risk creating a power vaccum knowing that I can retain control of the Citadel.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:12 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Saving the Destiny Ascension can be justified I suppose, but I don't really know how.

[The_Numerator]

What do you mean when you say, "requires exceptional amounts of faith on Shepard's part"?

[Spectre_907]

As I said before, we retain control of the Citadel. The only way Sovereign can contorl it is if someone on board the Citadel physically transfers control to Sovereign via the master control unit. This was the whole point of Saren being possessed by Sovereign and saying "This station is mine." There is no faith in saving the Council. At most, we loose a few ships and then go after Sovereign. But Sovereign can not gain control of the Citadel unless it possesses Saren.

[Fiery Phoenix]

The_Numerator wrote...

What do you mean when you say, "requires exceptional amounts of faith on Shepard's part"?

Put yourself in Shepard's shoes under those circumstances; I'd be too hard-pressed to risk Sovereign destroying the Citadel trying to save the Council. That is to say, a Shepard who saves the Council has to be a little more hopeful than the average human being, as it would result in grave consequences if it didn't work out.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Spectre_907]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

The_Numerator wrote...

What do you mean when you say, "requires exceptional amounts of faith on Shepard's part"?

Put yourself on Shepard's shoes under those circumstances; I'd be too hard-pressed to risk Sovereign destroying the Citadel trying to save the Council. That is to say, a Shepard who saves the Council has to be a little more hopeful than the average human being, so it would result in grave consequences if it didn't work out.

Sovereign needs the Citadel to activate it and open the mass relay link to dark space.

[tommyt_1994]

To add logical to the morality of saving the council, from what Shep knows, Sovereign is locked out and trapped within the ward arms when the decisions comes up. Shepard knows that the DA is fleeing and that the citadel fleet is there fighting off geth ships, and the DA is apparently near destruction. From Shep's POV, wouldn't it be logical to assume that you can send in the reinforcements and destroy the geth ships outside the ward arms, thus stopping them from flanking you in the future. Sure, you may lose some alliance ships, but you would also have some remaining citadel fleet ships to aid you; you don't know that the ships are going to flee with the DA like they apparently do. In this situation, the DA escapes, you have, presumably, the alliance ships and the remaining ships form the citadel fleet en route to destroy sovereign who really has nowhere to go. Saren is dead at this point and Shep has control of the citadel, he can't open the relay up and let the reapers pour in.



Correct me if anything I said was incorrect, but I think this is pretty plausible though poorly written out I'll admit.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Spectre_907 wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

The_Numerator wrote...

What do you mean when you say, "requires exceptional amounts of faith on Shepard's part"?

Put yourself on Shepard's shoes under those circumstances; I'd be too hard-pressed to risk Sovereign destroying the Citadel trying to save the Council. That is to say, a Shepard who saves the Council has to be a little more hopeful than the average human being, so it would result in grave consequences if it didn't work out.

Sovereign needs the Citadel to activate it and open the mass relay link to dark space.

It's been a while since ME1 so I don't really remember everything; sorry. I just think saving the Council is a risky choice from a tactical standpoint.

[Sajuro]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

This thread was designed to debate how morality should play in a spectre's decision making and if a spectre should sacrifice their own morals to make for the greater good of the galaxy. It wasn't made to debate the logical and tactical advantages of the end decision in ME1. Kinda off topic here guys

As to the original topic, it comes down to morals or lack there of since that is how one would determine what the best course of action is to preserve galactic stability. Do we keep the current system or do we move it to a system dominated by one species?

[Pacifien]

The original purpose of this thread is to discuss whether a spectre's decisions should be made for galactic interests versus personal morals. If you'd like to specifically discuss the end decision to Mass Effect 1, I suggest starting a new thread for the topic so that this thread can remain focused on the original topic.

Modifié par Pacifien, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:29 .

[The_Numerator]

Well you know what, let's just take a moment and make sure everyone is on the same page here. Because as you've pointed out, it's possible that different views are arising as a result of... "differently-complete" information?



For argument's sake (or for avoiding argument's sake, really), let's just take stock of the pertinent known information. I expect I'll miss something, so by all means, fill in the missing points.



1)The strength and composition of the Arcturus fleet is known.



2)It is known that Sovereign means to activate the mass relay that is the citadel in order to bring in reaper reinforcements from... Well, wherever reinforcements are standing by.



Sorry. That's actually the best I can come up with off the top of my head.