530 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
By half hte game i end up beign hte richest man in Ferelden..and it's STILL not enough to buy that top equipment, where each items is 100+ gold for some reason.

Of course, this means that the richest man in Ferelden is actually that Tranquil who runs the Wonders of Thedas shop.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

Oblivion takes the looting fantasy to the outer limits when you can loot the silverware in the kitchen. I'm shocked the looters don't love that approach since the fun is just in finding stuff.

I do really like the Elder Scrolls approach to loot, though it does sometimes get implemented poorly (how do merchants know this particular item is stolen?).

But otherwise, I love that I can pick up pretty much everything.  My very first Arena character was a cat burglar.

[upsettingshorts]

AlanC9 wrote...
Of course, this means that the richest man in Ferelden is actually that Tranquil who runs the Wonders of Thedas shop.

I always wondered what that shop's customer base was.  A lot of mages shopping in Denerim?

People looking for magic curiosities and willing to pay out the nose for it?

[Sir JK]

I kind of agree with Lotion, the looting/selling/money system is less of an economy and more of a straight progression system like levels. It really makes no sense out of an economical viewpoint at all, replacing the money with loot-points wouldn't make any difference (okay, it wouldn't feel the same I admit).



As a tangent, I find myself curious about Sir Occam's idea as how a fantasy game that uses poverty as a plotpoint would be. Holding onto every penny, carefully trying to scrounge enough for the day's single meal. Occasionally plundeirng a body to find something valuable to sell (or better yet, warm clothes for the winter). I find the premise interesting, but not sure how well it could be represented...

[filetemo]

I think one of the problems is the merchants will buy all the crap you sell to them, if I was a merchant and somebody wanted to sell me 250 rotten apples and 34 darkspawn battleaxes I'd tell them to sod off, I'm not going to spend 50 sovereigns to buy that crap, who am I going to sell it to after?

[Sir JK]

filetemo wrote...

I think one of the problems is the merchants will buy all the crap you sell to them, if I was a merchant and somebody wanted to sell me 250 rotten apples and 34 darkspawn battleaxes I'd tell them to sod off, I'm not going to spend 50 sovereigns to buy that crap, who am I going to sell it to after?

"I can give you a silver for the iron in those axes though. No no, keep the hafts, I just want the axeheads.".

[Icinix]

filetemo wrote...

I think one of the problems is the merchants will buy all the crap you sell to them, if I was a merchant and somebody wanted to sell me 250 rotten apples and 34 darkspawn battleaxes I'd tell them to sod off, I'm not going to spend 50 sovereigns to buy that crap, who am I going to sell it to after?

Feeding and outfitting a small rag tag band of mercenaries to fight in the Blight?

[filetemo]

Sir JK wrote...

filetemo wrote...

I think one of the problems is the merchants will buy all the crap you sell to them, if I was a merchant and somebody wanted to sell me 250 rotten apples and 34 darkspawn battleaxes I'd tell them to sod off, I'm not going to spend 50 sovereigns to buy that crap, who am I going to sell it to after?

"I can give you a silver for the iron in those axes though. No no, keep the hafts, I just want the axeheads.".

[persuade] I've heard dalish girls dig rotten apples. A lot
[intimidate]the 34 darkspawn whom I took those axes didn't want to buy me the apples, either
[kill the merchant] bargain this! (stab him)

[Sir JK]

filetemo wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

filetemo wrote...

I think one of the problems is the merchants will buy all the crap you sell to them, if I was a merchant and somebody wanted to sell me 250 rotten apples and 34 darkspawn battleaxes I'd tell them to sod off, I'm not going to spend 50 sovereigns to buy that crap, who am I going to sell it to after?

"I can give you a silver for the iron in those axes though. No no, keep the hafts, I just want the axeheads.".

[persuade] I've heard dalish girls dig rotten apples. A lot
[intimidate]the 34 darkspawn whom I took those axes didn't want to buy me the apples, either
[kill the merchant] bargain this! (stab him=

You know, that explains so much. We're not actually selling them the stuff, we're just dropping a sack of junk by their feet and robbing them.

[filetemo]

Sir JK wrote...

filetemo wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

filetemo wrote...

I think one of the problems is the merchants will buy all the crap you sell to them, if I was a merchant and somebody wanted to sell me 250 rotten apples and 34 darkspawn battleaxes I'd tell them to sod off, I'm not going to spend 50 sovereigns to buy that crap, who am I going to sell it to after?

"I can give you a silver for the iron in those axes though. No no, keep the hafts, I just want the axeheads.".

[persuade] I've heard dalish girls dig rotten apples. A lot
[intimidate]the 34 darkspawn whom I took those axes didn't want to buy me the apples, either
[kill the merchant] bargain this! (stab him=

You know, that explains so much. We're not actually selling them the stuff, we're just dropping a sack of junk by their feet and robbing them.

Maybe Varric will make a reference to "those wicked Grey Wardens whose perversion was to extorsionate poor merchants by making them buy piles of rotten fruit and elven roots and make them pay obscene amounts of gold with great delight"

[AngryFrozenWater]

You promised to explain...

SirOccam wrote...

... the way story and making money are related in my argument...

You came up with six points which didn't make the relation between the story and making money clear. They are preferences to how you like the play the game. That's fine, but they are unrelated to the promised explanation. If I point that out then you get angry. And frankly, because of that I am losing interest in that explanation.

Somehow your annoyance with looting seems to be related with a requirement to fit poor into the story. Like in

SirOccam wrote...

If being poor were reflected in the story, then I would no longer mind it.

If I ask you why this rule needs to be applied then you refuse:

SirOccam wrote...

Why the hell should I have to come up with anything better? I'm not trying to prove Fermat's Last Theorem here, I'm just stating my opinion like anyone else on these boards.

If you cannot explain that simple question then don't require that being poor has to be reflected in the story or stories.

SirOccam wrote...

I think the amount of junk loot in the game was a bit overdone, and therefore I think it would be nice if it were dialed back a little. That's it. Not removed. Unless you can tell me objectively why the drop rate in Origins was perfect, then I don't understand why this is such an earth-shattering suggestion. What if it were as little as 5% less? Would that be so bad?

What you call junk may not be junk for someone else. This is an example: If you are into making poisons then Demonic Ichor may be an ingredient you would like to have. Finding it saves you from buying it. But if you don't then yes, it will be junk to you. However, if the chance to find it was decreased by 5% than people who want that ingredient have to buy those absent 5%.

And here is your problem: The fact you feel there is too much junk in loot somehow justifies that others who don't feel the same way have to spend more money. You see, what you don't understand is that your wish negatively impacts my game. So yes, it would really be bad.

Then all of a sudden we get this...

SirOccam wrote...

Of course it has something to do with you. You're trying to tell me why my preferences are wrong. You are the other person in this discussion. How could it not have something to do with you?

Your preferences were not the issue. They were not related to your promised explanation. That's all. Your idea that solves your annoyance problem would directly affect my game. And I am not the one annoyed by looting. You are. Don't try to switch things around. It doesn't work on me. Here is how your idea to change things affects my game...

Your idea to reduce lootable bodies by a factor of 20 (you mentioned that as an example - I know) and replace that by lootable bodies that have loot increased by a factor of 20 has some serious flaws. In most quests there aren't even that many enemies. The list of side quests proves that. And not all enemies drop loot. The average quest only requires you a couple of clicks to loot bodies. And if junk is the problem then skip the junk. In exceptional situations there are more enemies, but again, not all drop loot. Your idea sounds great, but for people who like loot to be found in the normal distribution it reduces the number of events loot can be found. Each event is a little "dang - crap loot" or "cool - Demonic Ichor" moment. Because you cannot understand that mechanism (that's not attack - just an observation which might be wrong), it is easy for you to come up with your factor 20 idea. For those of us who like loot, it reduces the fun. Again, you want a change that you like, but others don't. That's not acceptable for me.

SirOccam wrote...

I'll say once more (and hopefully for the last time) that clicking has never been a factor in my arguments.

Of course clicking lootable bodies has something to do with it. If it it wasn't there then there would be no looting.

Despite what most people think looting is not the main source of income. You really don't have to do it if you want to make lots of money. Prior to the Landsmeet you can collect loot and sell it for about 350 gold and by doing quests prior to the Landsmeet you can collect over 1000 gold. So, if you skip some of the looting (by only picking the best items) you won't lose much. Even if you skip all of it, you can buy very nice gear.

[Sidney]

filetemo wrote...

I think one of the problems is the merchants will buy all the crap you sell to them, if I was a merchant and somebody wanted to sell me 250 rotten apples and 34 darkspawn battleaxes I'd tell them to sod off, I'm not going to spend 50 sovereigns to buy that crap, who am I going to sell it to after?

Well the really clever economic system would reflect that you are essentially dumping goods on the market by decreasing the relative value of those goods for each unit sold. The shopkeeper might think there's a market for one Grey Iron Sword but likely not 10 of them or at least not at the same price.

[filetemo]

it would be better if the loot was tied to the enemy. I mean, why a werewolf has a liryum poultice? where? in the fur ? in the stomach? if random mobs always had the loot reallistically tied to them, you'd know looting a wolf brings you wolf skin and wolf teeth, and that's it. Then you know if it interests you to loot it for the alchemic components or not at all.

Same for darkspawn, if I kill a two hander hurlock who wears an axe I've never seen before, I would like to loot that axe, not to open the menu and find he has 2 sovereigns and a vigor poultice. Same with the guardian of the Ashes, I killed him to get his armor, mace and helmet only to find he had health poultices and some arrows.I wanted to strip him of the new and interesting items he was wearing in-game.

Or, if I've killed a mob with 20 arrows, I want to loot those 20 arrows again.Loot tied with visuals and coherence. Why do the small pack of ashes of a wraith demon's corpse contain a medium leather armor?

[AT_Field]

For god's sake the inventory interface better not be another list in a tiny window or I will rage.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I always wondered what that shop's customer base was.  A lot of mages shopping in Denerim?

People looking for magic curiosities and willing to pay out the nose for it?

Presumably he was a front for the Circle. So whoever wanted to purchase enchanted weapons from the circle for whatever reason could do so there. He had mage specific items as a gameplay neccesity, but lore-wise there shouldn't ever be mage specific items for sale because you'd never have enough free mages going around purchasing that stuff.

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...


it would be better if the loot was tied to the enemy. I mean, why a werewolf has a liryum poultice? where? in the fur ? in the stomach? if random mobs always had the loot reallistically tied to them, you'd know looting a wolf brings you wolf skin and wolf teeth, and that's it. Then you know if it interests you to loot it for the alchemic components or not at all.

Here is the reason for this: random loot drops. We debated this on the old boards. There was a contingent that wanted pre-determined drops for all enemies. Others wanted random loot all the time. There was a compromise of sorts, leaning heavily toward random loot from all non-major enemies. 

Potions are randomly dropped by all enemies in part because the difficulty you play at predicts drops, and if you run low potions the game begins to reward you with them.

Same for darkspawn, if I kill a two hander hurlock who wears an axe I've never seen before, I would like to loot that axe, not to open the menu and find he has 2 sovereigns and a vigor poultice. Same with the guardian of the Ashes, I killed him to get his armor, mace and helmet only to find he had health poultices and some arrows.I wanted to strip him of the new and interesting items he was wearing in-game.

Goes right back to the random level scaled drops.

Or, if I've killed a mob with 20 arrows, I want to loot those 20 arrows again.Loot tied with visuals and coherence. Why do the small pack of ashes of a wraith demon's corpse contain a medium leather armor?

The bane of all reason: random loot drops.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...


it would be better if the loot was tied to the enemy. I mean, why a werewolf has a liryum poultice? where? in the fur ? in the stomach? if random mobs always had the loot reallistically tied to them, you'd know looting a wolf brings you wolf skin and wolf teeth, and that's it. Then you know if it interests you to loot it for the alchemic components or not at all.

Here is the reason for this: random loot drops. We debated this on the old boards. There was a contingent that wanted pre-determined drops for all enemies. Others wanted random loot all the time. There was a compromise of sorts, leaning heavily toward random loot from all non-major enemies. 

Potions are randomly dropped by all enemies in part because the difficulty you play at predicts drops, and if you run low potions the game begins to reward you with them.

Same for darkspawn, if I kill a two hander hurlock who wears an axe I've never seen before, I would like to loot that axe, not to open the menu and find he has 2 sovereigns and a vigor poultice. Same with the guardian of the Ashes, I killed him to get his armor, mace and helmet only to find he had health poultices and some arrows.I wanted to strip him of the new and interesting items he was wearing in-game.

Goes right back to the random level scaled drops.

Or, if I've killed a mob with 20 arrows, I want to loot those 20 arrows again.Loot tied with visuals and coherence. Why do the small pack of ashes of a wraith demon's corpse contain a medium leather armor?

The bane of all reason: random loot drops.

Honestly I've never had a problem with loot drops being mostly random, prolly the only thing I would change is having a bit more of the high end gear (lifegiver, or the mage armors at the wonders of Thedas for example) either be quest rewards, or added to the random loot list.

Thats really my only complain with how DA;O handled it. I still get most of my gear either by quest rewards, DLC, or off of bosses, but it is much more rewarding finding powerful items rather than buying them. Not that I'd be against having both options available either.

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile wrote...
Presumably he was a front for the Circle. So whoever wanted to purchase enchanted weapons from the circle for whatever reason could do so there. He had mage specific items as a gameplay neccesity, but lore-wise there shouldn't ever be mage specific items for sale because you'd never have enough free mages going around purchasing that stuff.

That's pretty close to what I imagined.  Still, the bolded section of your post looms large over the shop's very existence in Denerim.

[gingerbill]

Felfenix wrote...

Why not just have less drops, but of higher quality, and gold instead of vendor trash?

agreed .

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
Presumably he was a front for the Circle. So whoever wanted to purchase enchanted weapons from the circle for whatever reason could do so there. He had mage specific items as a gameplay neccesity, but lore-wise there shouldn't ever be mage specific items for sale because you'd never have enough free mages going around purchasing that stuff. 

My take on it was that there would often be a few mages attached to the government or the Chantry in Denerim, and WoT is their supply center.

That still doesn't explain how a party without a PC mage or Wynne is allowed to buy that stuff, but that's part of a general lore problem with Morrigan.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Of course, this means that the richest man in Ferelden is actually that Tranquil who runs the Wonders of Thedas shop.

I always wondered what that shop's customer base was.  A lot of mages shopping in Denerim?

People looking for magic curiosities and willing to pay out the nose for it?

Denerim is tourist hotspot being the birthplace of Andraste and whatnot. There may be quite a few mages visiting the city.

Though i suspect these fertility idols and other such paraphernalia make for bulk of the sales.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I always wondered what that shop's customer base was.  A lot of mages shopping in Denerim?

People looking for magic curiosities and willing to pay out the nose for it?

Presumably he was a front for the Circle.

Undoubtedly.  We know the Circle generates revenue by selling magical goods, and we know Denerim is the largest city in Ferelden.  As such, it's the place likely to offer the Circle the greatest potential customer base.

If such a shop exists, Denerim is the only sensible place for it.

[Sidney]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Undoubtedly.  We know the Circle generates revenue by selling magical goods, and we know Denerim is the largest city in Ferelden.  As such, it's the place likely to offer the Circle the greatest potential customer base.

If such a shop exists, Denerim is the only sensible place for it.

...and while mages are tough to be sure unless they have a SWAT team nearby we never saw that store should get knocked over like a liquor store in a bad neighborhood let alone all the other chump merchants.

I can see low rent stuff like some potions, balms and such being for sale but to have high end staves, mage robes, rings and amulets for sale is just a bit much.

[Vaeliorin]

In Exile wrote...
The bane of all reason: random loot drops.

To be fair, random loot drops don't have to be the bane of all reason.  I used a system on the NWN PW I helped build/run that had random drops, but only ones that made sense.  Animals wouldn't drop money/finished goods, for example.

The problem isn't the randomness itself, but rather that the lists from which the random items are picked aren't specific enough.  Each creature/type of creature should have a specific list of things that it can drop that make sense as something that it should have.  That would eliminate the weirdness of a bear dropping a poultice or something, while preventing the tedium that absolutely fixed loot causes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

Well the really clever economic system would reflect that you are essentially dumping goods on the market by decreasing the relative value of those goods for each unit sold.

Didn't Oblivion do that?  I'm sure I've played a game that did.