530 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

hangmans tree wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

This ^^   I don't need 50 different assault riffles to be happy, what I do need is physical on screen feedback of what makes one gun better than another, either in action of use, or via informational overlays. on exact weapon stats and why. Otherwise you're just guessing as the guns don't feel any different in use. And I'm sorry but a smaller ammo clip doesn't mean all that much when it comes to feeling "different"

Excuse me...but in ME2 in weapon descriptions you can find info on weapons features. Rate of fire, accuracy, is it best against shields, barriers or armour. Lack of numbers is the only thing thats missing...So I was always able to figure out which gun does best at what it  does  in certain circumstances.
Your stance implies you had no problem with DAOs talents, items and other descriptions while they were at least as vague as those from ME2. That is why people've been asking and clamoring about some combat log. Or better descriptions. Was it fixed in later DAO version?

Where did I mention anything even remotely about DAO's talents in talking about ME2 craptastic system? At the very least DAO offers far more information about everything in the game short of having a combat log, (still have no idea why that particular design decision was made)

Sorry if I have a hard time getting excited about one gun effecting shields or armor slightly more is supposed to get me all hot and bothered and think that particular item makes much difference in the grand scheme.

I have no issues with people liking ME2's system, I personally found it terrible and would absolutely loathe to see it adopted for Dragon Age. Keep the two series seperate, bad enough I have to deal with a dialog wheel and a voiced protagonist, let ME2 keep its bastardized inventory system.

[Sylvius the Mad]

tmp7704 wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....proves_the_rule

Howerver, this:

A case may appear at first sight to be an exception to the rule.
However, when we examine things more closely, we see that the rule
doesn't apply to this case, so the rule is shown to be valid after all.

makes perfect sense.

That would seem to be a very narrow set of circumstances under which the expression could be used sensically, but at least now I understand that it's not always necessarily absurd.

[Sylvius the Mad]

hangmans tree wrote...

I advise ans ask all of you to return to inventory and loot regarding...well, DAO->DA2 transition. Otherwise the topic will be locked.

Could you? Thanks.

Good idea.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

^
Exactly. Enemies dropped stuff they carried, and it was mostly worthless. I never bothered picking up regular shortbows or swords (unless my swords broke..iron rot and all that), and the magical stuff was really rare.

It was perfect.

Sorry, how is that totally different to Origins? Most bodies have a bit of gold, and/or a combo of weapon, ammo, armour, potion, or material they might have used to craft something with (some herbs or metal shards etc) or occasionally something they'd probably be going to sell (silk carpet or whatnot). Yes, the weapons etc level scale - which I don't massively like (but that's a different debate), but they usually aren't magical. Not on non-boss types, anyway. A lot of the time in Origins I didn't bother picking things up cos they were really mundane - it's not a problem that they were there for others to pick up, though.

Sorry edited to be less wrong!

Eh? I was swimming in magic items before I even reached 1/3rd of the game! And there's really little difference between a super-material and magical sword....especialyl given DA:O's material system. God, does it suck donkey balls! I cannot say that enough.

Drops and looting should be completely re-done..from the ground up. No potions or gold from beats/animals. No dragonbone swords from bandits...no stupid stuff. Less drops in total.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Of course it is a GUI issue, Upsettingshorts. Somewhere in the game that data needs to be available. In DA:O that inventory is that GUI. It is even present in reduced form when you look at the PC or henchmen's stats. I think that is very convenient. About your post... Maybe I skipped it by accident (not sure). But the way you are asking me now does not exactly encourage me to respond.

An inventory is just the list of what you're carrying with your party - not which of those items within it are better than others.  They could have had everything else be the same and not told you the stats of your weapons and armor in the GUI, and you'd have to watch the damage numbers after using them to determine which was better; then DA:O would have the same problem as ME2 but with an inventory.  It's a separate problem.  I think that's a logical distinction, don't you?

No. The item stats and the inventory should not be separated at all. That's because the party inventory is the most convenient location to give you information about the items that are being stored there. Just hover your mouse above it and you'll get lots of data that help you make the decision for a potential replacement. You can see the impact of an item on the stats for each party member. Just select that party member in the left hand panel. That handy system is also used during trading (this time the party member can be selected by a dropdown list).

All of this is simply integrated in the inventory and trading system. In DA:O the player doesn't need to walk to the armory, or player's quarters, or laboratory to get access to data. Besides, those ME2 thingies don't even give the player any relevant data. The same goes for merchants in ME2. One can buy things, but one isn't not even sure what the merchant is selling and there is no way of comparing it to items already owned and there is no way to figure out what the impact is on your stats or on those of other crew members. Compared to DA:O the ME2 system is totally unusable and inconvenient.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:29 .

[upsettingshorts]

I didn't mean that they ought to be physically separate, just that they were separate issues. Take your example, let's say you hovered your mouse over an item in your inventory in DA:O and nothing happened. That'd be a GUI issue in that it failed to give you relevant data over the characteristics of the item.

That's what I meant.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AllThatJazz wrote...

I suppose this encapsulates how I feel in the end - if Bio is going to spend their resources on something, I would rather it be on almost anything else than overhauling a loot and inventory system that, after all, is not so heinous that people switch off their computers in RAAAAAAGE. Is it?

Heh..The inventory system alone is hardly enough to ragequit. Now, if oyu take al lthethings in DA:O I think are badly done together...well, still not enouhg to ragequit, but enough for me to constantly postpone or avoid another playtrough, simply because I don' want to bother with stupid inventory, looting, scaling and leveling mechanics...and this sez alot given that I re-played a lot of similar games  many times (KOTOR, BG1 and 2, both Fallouts, JA2, etc, etc..)

a couple weapons of each class that barely felt all the different from each other.

It's a gun, not a fantasy sword. The difference in range, "stopping power", magazine capacity, rate of fire are the classical ones.
You can also add reliability, ease of maintainance and a few other minor factors for the extreeme realists.
Those differences may not be as obvious as "extra fire damage" vs. "extra cold damage", but they are there and are felt during gameplay.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I don't think rules accommodate exceptions.  If anything, the presence of an exception demonstrates that the rule never existed.

But I'm picky about these things.

So what should we call a "rule" that has exceptions?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
100+ slots in BG?  There were 16 per character, so you'd clear 100 in you have all 6 party members, but nothing other than ammo stacked, so you routinely filled your inventory and couldn't take things with you.

Plus there were weight limits.  Swords and armour are heavy.  No one aside from high-strength fighters could carry extra sets of plate armour.

Strong Back Feat. +STR items. Bags of Holding. Gem/Arrow/potion containers.

You could carry a LOT. I lug a whole friggin armory with me in BG2 and ID2.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I didn't mean that they ought to be physically separate, just that they were separate issues. Take your example, let's say you hovered your mouse over an item in your inventory in DA:O and nothing happened. That'd be a GUI issue in that it failed to give you relevant data over the characteristics of the item.

That's what I meant.

Interesting.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

I suppose this encapsulates how I feel in the end - if Bio is going to spend their resources on something, I would rather it be on almost anything else than overhauling a loot and inventory system that, after all, is not so heinous that people switch off their computers in RAAAAAAGE. Is it?

Heh..The inventory system alone is hardly enough to ragequit. Now, if oyu take al lthethings in DA:O I think are badly done together...well, still not enouhg to ragequit, but enough for me to constantly postpone or avoid another playtrough, simply because I don' want to bother with stupid inventory, looting, scaling and leveling mechanics...and this sez alot given that I re-played a lot of similar games  many times (KOTOR, BG1 and 2, both Fallouts, JA2, etc, etc..)

Given the part of your reply I bolded. You're playing CRPG's why exactly?

[Leonia]

I guess story, dialogue, and questing just aren't as super fun as seeing how many frostrocks you can squeeze into your pack.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Because I occasionally run into ones with GOOD inventory and leveling mechanics?



You bolded the wrong parts..the emphasis should have been on the "stupid" part.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

^
Exactly. Enemies dropped stuff they carried, and it was mostly worthless. I never bothered picking up regular shortbows or swords (unless my swords broke..iron rot and all that), and the magical stuff was really rare.

It was perfect.

Sorry, how is that totally different to Origins? Most bodies have a bit of gold, and/or a combo of weapon, ammo, armour, potion, or material they might have used to craft something with (some herbs or metal shards etc) or occasionally something they'd probably be going to sell (silk carpet or whatnot). Yes, the weapons etc level scale - which I don't massively like (but that's a different debate), but they usually aren't magical. Not on non-boss types, anyway. A lot of the time in Origins I didn't bother picking things up cos they were really mundane - it's not a problem that they were there for others to pick up, though.

Sorry edited to be less wrong!

Eh? I was swimming in magic items before I even reached 1/3rd of the game! And there's really little difference between a super-material and magical sword....especialyl given DA:O's material system. God, does it suck donkey balls! I cannot say that enough.

Drops and looting should be completely re-done..from the ground up. No potions or gold from beats/animals. No dragonbone swords from bandits...no stupid stuff. Less drops in total.

In my language we have this expression: "Exaggerating is an art."

You can find magical items early in the game, but that does not mean you can equip these. Weapons and armor have a stat requirement and not all items are leveled. To get that high end bow you'll need to invest in dexterity, and to get that awesome armor you have to invest in strength, etc. Try to equip your Blood Dragon armor with a strength below 38 without cheating. I need to use standard stuff in at least the first half of the game. I am not a fan of the leveled stuff, though. I sometimes delay quests to get a leveled item reward with higher tier. Or I delay quests with unleveled rewards just because I don't want to carry it along without being able to use it. Soldier's Peak is an example of that. Do I want the party chest early in the game or do I want its leveled armor later in the game? It's about choices. So telling that you are swimming in magical items before you've reached 1/3rd of the game does not match my experience.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:13 .

[upsettingshorts]

Personally I think a system that limited what the player and his/her party can carry by weight and volume would have the side-effect of also limiting the annoyances of trash loot.

If you simply couldn't carry that much it wouldn't matter how much useless garbage your foes dropped, you'd only be able to pick up what would actually be useful to you because you simply wouldn't have room for too much extra.

It would also feel natural and not at all like an abstract artificial restriction.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:17 .

[Vaeliorin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I don't think rules accommodate exceptions.  If anything, the presence of an exception demonstrates that the rule never existed.

But I'm picky about these things.

So what should we call a "rule" that has exceptions?

Guidelines?

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Personally I think a system that limited what the player and his/her party can carry by weight and volume would have the side-effect of also limiting the annoyances of trash loot.

If you simply couldn't carry that much it wouldn't matter how much useless garbage your foes dropped, you'd only be able to pick up what would actually be useful to you because you simply wouldn't have room for too much extra.

It would also feel natural and not at all like an abstract artificial restriction.

Not necessarily.  Some people (guilty!) will make multiple trips back and forth to carry out every single piece of loot that it's possible to pick up, unless the loot decays (which is, honestly, a pretty frustrating situation for someone like me.  It means I'm constantly having to rearrange my inventory to pick up the most valuable pieces of gear and
throwing out the trash.)

I, admittedly, have issues with looting.  In BG, for example, whenever there was loot I could pick up but couldn't take with me for whatever reason, I'd drop it all in one neat little pile because having all that loot spread out all over the
place bugged me.  If someone followed me around in BG, they'd have found neat little piles of 15 halberds here, 23 warhammers there, etc.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:08 .

[Vaeliorin]

Bah, double post.  That's what I get for not really paying attention.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:07 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

leonia42 wrote...

I guess story, dialogue, and questing just aren't as super fun as seeing how many frostrocks you can squeeze into your pack.

Thats not what I'm saying at all. It just gets old listening to complaints about CPRG systems that have worked fine for years. Now all of a sudden are an issue because the new target demographic can't be bothered with them.

[upsettingshorts]

Vaeliorin wrote...
Not necessarily.  Some people (guilty!) will make multiple trips back and forth to carry out every single piece of loot that it's possible to pick up, unless the loot decays (which is, honestly, a pretty frustrating situation for someone like me.  It means I'm constantly having to rearrange my inventory to pick up the most valuable pieces of gear and throwing out the trash.)

Maybe then they could simply say that the dead were looted by other people during your round trip, and have such items you didn't collect on the spot disappear.

This would make sense in some places - like, on the road between cities or other areas with an expectation of other people running across the corpses - but not in others, like the Deep Roads.  

(Typed the above somehow not recognizing that you mentioned loot decay in your post.  Jesus, I need my coffee)

But yeah, if you're going to make multiple trips I'm not sure what system would stop you from packratting. 

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Thats not what I'm saying at all. It just gets old listening to complaints about CPRG systems that have worked fine for years. Now all of a sudden are an issue because the new target demographic can't be bothered with them.

It's not necessarily just this vague new target demographic.  Some of us have been playing CRPGs for years despite some "core" features of the genre not striking us as particularly important or even well implemented.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:14 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

I don't believe in "trash loot". What is junk for some is usable for others. You can remove ingredients (just as an example) from the loot, but that presents a new problem. What to do with those who are interested in herbalism and poison making? One of the ideas behind herbalism and poison making was that these would have the advantage of being able to create some of the stuff cheaper using ingredients. It's a tricky situation that cannot be solved by simply removing them from loot or the wilds. Reducing also presents problems of its own. Worth thinking about, but these skills should definitely not be nerfed or removed, because a couple of players don't want to have ingredients in their inventory. Telling players not to pick up ingredients, because they really aren't that valuable already seems to upset some players. For some others finding any loot (and the more the better) are little 1 second events, like in "crap - an elfroot" or "cool - an elfroot" and is something they enjoy.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:22 .

[hangmans tree]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Thats not what I'm saying at all. It just gets old listening to complaints about CPRG systems that have worked fine for years. Now all of a sudden are an issue because the new target demographic can't be bothered with them.

Who are you calling new target demographic?I think most f the participants in this discussion are fans of rpg old and new, but you refer to the people who arent here to discuss the subject. The issue certainly did not spring out over the night.

[upsettingshorts]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't believe in "trash loot". What is junk for some is usable for others.

I wouldn't qualify stackable ingredients as trash loot.  Trash loot would be items like in say, Fallout 3 or Oblivion - where weight comes in to play - with a crap Value to Weight ratio.  Items that in effect exist only to be sold because they aren't good enough to equip, but aren't of significant value.  That's what I'd define as trash loot.

[filetemo]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Personally I think a system that limited what the player and his/her party can carry by weight and volume would have the side-effect of also limiting the annoyances of trash loot.

If you simply couldn't carry that much it wouldn't matter how much useless garbage your foes dropped, you'd only be able to pick up what would actually be useful to you because you simply wouldn't have room for too much extra.

It would also feel natural and not at all like an abstract artificial restriction.

And let me add:

if loot was like that, loot wouldn't be a source of income anymore (or at least, much less important) thus giving the vendors their real purpose: to sell, not to buy.

Vendors and merchants are supposed to be there to sell and make profit, not to buy the crap of adventurers. It's weird that anybody can become rich by selling 40000 shortswords to the same vendor, and yet the vendor stil has money to buy whatever you want to sell. There's merchants in game which I've never bought anything from, they're there to release me from my inventory junk.You'd think the third time Gorim sees me coming with a pile of darkspawn daggers he'd pack up his tent and run away from me.

Also there's another issue: Merchants infinite amount of money. There should be a limit to the amount of junk they are willing to buy, or a limit to the gold they can spend on a single day. If Sandal's father has 200 gold to spend on me, why is he a merchant instead of living in a castle enjoying his money?

There should be a limit, the merchant telling you, sorry, I'm not buying more of these today.

[filetemo]

Or another idea:



Have a merchant follower that sells your junk in the market of kirkwall. Then you'd have a slow but constant flow of cash. You return from your adventures, give the junk to him and wait till he sells it, you could raise the prices you'd want the items to sell for.



That would solve the problem of merchants getting bankrupt buying your crap

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

hangmans tree wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Thats not what I'm saying at all. It just gets old listening to complaints about CPRG systems that have worked fine for years. Now all of a sudden are an issue because the new target demographic can't be bothered with them.

Who are you calling new target demographic?I think most f the participants in this discussion are fans of rpg old and new, but you refer to the people who arent here to discuss the subject. The issue certainly did not spring out over the night.

To be honest, I've only seen it brought up recently, more so after ME/ME2's release, so take that for what its worth and with a grain of salt because I'm not saying thats the issue at all, it just appears to be to me because I don't think I ever once on the old Bioboards saw anyone complain about how BG/BG2 etc etc handled inventory or that there were "too many drops" over the course of the game.

And again, I'm never against refining something to make it better, I do worry at this point though that any sort of complaints will result in the ME2 treatment of gutting the RPG systems beyond belief, and that would upset me quite a bit.