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Real Death During Combat


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#26
PoopyStuff

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There's a reason BG series is considered legend.
DA is a step in the casual direction.
ie. in my opinion. crap.

When you attach the
name "baldur's gate" to a game, in the obvious hopes of drawing in the
hardcore fans like myself, only to make a title that has auto regen, and
party members that can't die in combat (yeah right.... hordes of
monsters, and everyone gets "injured", that's possible *rolls eyes*)

"deep, meaningful dialgoue, intricate storyline, dynamic, sympathetic characters, and full of fun role-playing goodness. "   Hey those things are great.. except they get destroyed everytime a party members get a sword thru his chest, and then gets up and heals in 10 seconds.

Sorry, but your game mechanic decision sucks.
You went for immersion with all of those things. to suspend the outside world and draw us in.

Into a world where wounds heal themselves, no one dies in combat, and swords thru the skull is considered a flesh would.  Where parties can go into heavy combat against hordes of monsters, knowing full well beforehand that as long as one of them survives, they all do.

Great job, you made a chocolate sundae with poop flavored sprinkles on top.

Modifié par PoopyStuff, 07 octobre 2010 - 10:33 .


#27
termokanden

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PoopyStuff wrote...

furthermore, there was this thing called "raise dead" that made your healer a life safer "literally*
and then there were these things called towns where you could bring the body back to and raise the party member at a temple.

see, these things are called immersion.
something heavily lacking in DA.


Yeah, it makes you take death so seriously that you can always just raise dead. I've often wondered in these games how it can be that nobles ever die of anything but old age. I'm sure it makes sense SOMEHOW.

By the way, I played BG, BG2, IWD, IWD2, and Planescape: Torment and I still prefer the new death mechanic.

A very standard oldschool AD&D rule, if I remember correctly, was that you would get pass out at zero HP and only die once you hit -10.  What happens when you reach zero HP in DAO is exactly that you pass out, not that you die. So in a sense, there's nothing new in this. The fact that you heal quickly afterwards just means that your character doesn't rest for 8 hours after every single battle. I'm so happy we got rid of the stupid resting at camp mechanic - it's not like a broken bone heals itself in 8 hours anyway.

Modifié par termokanden, 07 octobre 2010 - 10:51 .


#28
The Blue bird

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PoopyStuff wrote...

see, these things are called immersion.

No, they aren't. Immersion is that state where you can do something menial for what seems like five minutes then you look at the clock and it's seven hours later. It isn't believing the game is real, as much as these boards seem to think so, it is becoming so interested (or "immersed") in the game, because you are playing a game. If you don't know that then you have a mental condition, that little else matters.

I'm assuming you've heard of those people on the news who play WoW for so long that their cat dies that's immersion. I realise that having "unbelieveable" scenarios in-game is something you don't enjoy. But coming to their fan forums and whining, a term that I admit is overused but feels apt in this case, was never going to convince anyone important in Bioware.

Clearly you liked the game enough to sign up to the forums and complain hoping they made the game better, so I think that you're full of crap. But that's just me :D

#29
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PoopyStuff wrote...

There's a reason BG series is considered legend.
DA is a step in the casual direction.
ie. in my opinion. crap.


It sounds like you played DA:O with a very grand expectancy that it would be Baldur's Gate clone, even though 12 years have passed. You might want to read game reviews or research games before you purchase them. The flaw here, isn't Dragon Age, it's your expectancy and things change after 12 years.

You weren't expecting to play Dragon Age on a 12 year old computer were you?

If you've made up your mind you're not playing it, move on or move back to BG.

#30
Darkshore

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I just feel the need to state this. If you would like to play dead is dead then that is your choice. How can you do this without changing game mechanics? After death either retire that character or if its a companion shelve them and no longer use them. Simple as that problem solved. Not trying to diss you in any way just reminding you that your idea of a perfect game is in the minority (which doesn't mean it's wrong) so I can see how this wasn't implemented.

#31
RinpocheSchnozberry

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----9----- wrote...

PoopyStuff wrote...

There's a reason BG series is considered legend.
DA is a step in the casual direction.
ie. in my opinion. crap.


It sounds like you played DA:O with a very grand expectancy that it would be Baldur's Gate clone, even though 12 years have passed. You might want to read game reviews or research games before you purchase them. The flaw here, isn't Dragon Age, it's your expectancy and things change after 12 years.

You weren't expecting to play Dragon Age on a 12 year old computer were you?

If you've made up your mind you're not playing it, move on or move back to BG.



This.

Where's the button I push to give a poster a star for the day?   :wizard:

#32
avado

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LOL Funny, but i thought it was having to stare at a monitor/tv set that made "immersion" impossible! How on earth could you get "immersed" in a game on a monitor but get so disjointed by a silly time saver? Maybe the town raise thing is good when you fight a combat an hour, but in a game that talks about DPS, it just doesnt work. But rant on! I need some more laughing in my life!

#33
Darkshore

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Guys flaming him isn't really necessary is it? Though I'll admit sometimes people have a hard time seeing others views.

#34
Bane of Revenants

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Well it is hardly surprising that on a Bioware forum negative views of Bioware games sometimes aren't received well.

Modifié par Bane of Revenants, 08 octobre 2010 - 12:20 .


#35
Wicked 702

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MindYerBeak wrote...

Take no notice of the sacarstic comments good sir, they're fanboyz who want an easy life, with everything handed to them on a plate, including cheat codes and walkthroughs. They've never played the BG series and wouldn't know an RPG from a bowl of Coco-Pops. 'Role playing' means nothing to them. It's all about Flash, Bang Wallop nowadays. Games are made specifically with the Console Kiddies in mind, much to our detriment.

Whilst DAO revival is a time saver it nevertheless strays from the risk/reward aspect, something we have to live with nowadays. I agree with you, DAO, in the sense of an RPG, whilst an enjoyable game nonetheless, is a cr@p RPG. Pick any party members, pick any stats, and you'll still win, even on 'Nightmare'. DAO is basically a Beat'em'Up with a little RPG thrown in. It's what the Console Kids demand and they get quite uppity when you disagree with their beloved view.

Ask yourself this question: Where will DAO be 10 years from now? Will it still be as popular as Planescape Torment/NWN I & 2? 20 years from now will it still be as popular and as playable as BG1/2?  In my opinion it'll be shelved the moment DA2 comes out. It doesn't have the long lasting awesomeness of RPGs of days gone by.



Yes, yes, we know already. Consoles are destroying the world. Oh woe is you.

Do you happen to have a spare tin foil hat around?

#36
Smaaen90

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Mr. Woo - You and your team equals to or greater than awesome.



Moving on, despite the fact that you seem to obviously hate, nay, detest this game, you sure put in a lot of effort into flaming and whining on the forums of said game. This was mentioned by an earlier member of the community, they don't die.



They fall unconscious, and thus cannot take part in the fight till it's over, rendering them useless for the duration of that fight. If everyone in your party, including you, should have the misfortune of falling unconscious - Well, then the darkspawn or what other creature(s) who fell you have the chance to have their way with you, thus you have to load.



If you somehow should miraculously survive after one or more party members hit the ground, they get up and have an injury which you have to cure. The fact that their hp regenerates fast after combat is simply to save time as the game is as big as it is. They don't come back from life, they don't get magically resurrected by some divine force, they wake up. If they had died and then revived, they wouldn't have any form of injury as revival, well, look it up =)





If you really do dislike this game and this little thing is what's holding you back from playing it, well, please, I beg you. Uninstall it and never come back. Ye won't be missed, yer amongst fanboys/ladies here.



Best regards,

Smaaen

#37
Bane of Revenants

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Epic sucking up...

#38
Smaaen90

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Bane of Revenants wrote...

Epic sucking up...


Nothing but facts stated clearly, at least from my own personal view.

#39
Aradace

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Stanley Woo wrote...

.

But please don't act like your definitions, opinions, and preferences are "right," "better," or the only ones here. You represent a small part of our gaming community, just as the "fanboys" represent a small part of our gaming community.

.


Not only should the OP take this part of Stanley's post to heart, but so should those that CONSTANTLY complain about the direction in which DA2 is going. 

#40
SpiriT_Of_Jazz

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People just stop responding to this thread and let him create his own perfect game. Bai.

#41
Grimbergenme

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Or on another note OP, have you tried healing during combat? As a BG veteran you should surely know that it was possible to perfect fights with the right tactics. DA isn't difficult & it'd certainly work around your 'down but not out' problem.

#42
PoopyStuff

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Smaaen90 wrote...

Mr. Woo - You and your team equals to or greater than awesome.

Moving on, despite the fact that you seem to obviously hate, nay, detest this game, you sure put in a lot of effort into flaming and whining on the forums of said game. This was mentioned by an earlier member of the community, they don't die.

They fall unconscious, and thus cannot take part in the fight till it's over, rendering them useless for the duration of that fight. If everyone in your party, including you, should have the misfortune of falling unconscious - Well, then the darkspawn or what other creature(s) who fell you have the chance to have their way with you, thus you have to load.

If you somehow should miraculously survive after one or more party members hit the ground, they get up and have an injury which you have to cure. The fact that their hp regenerates fast after combat is simply to save time as the game is as big as it is. They don't come back from life, they don't get magically resurrected by some divine force, they wake up. If they had died and then revived, they wouldn't have any form of injury as revival, well, look it up =)


If you really do dislike this game and this little thing is what's holding you back from playing it, well, please, I beg you. Uninstall it and never come back. Ye won't be missed, yer amongst fanboys/ladies here.

Best regards,
Smaaen


I can't believe I'm entertaining this..

What happens when a person his another car at 200 miles per hour instantly.
Do they often fall unconsious?

What happens when someone gets decapitated in combat
do they often fall unconsious?


It's not hard to explain...
People. Die.

The don't get up, brush themselves off, reset some bones back into place, and continue their journey.

If the healer in party dies, it makes it even tougher to get things back to normal.
If the healer is lucky enough to survive, then after some prepartation, the party can be put back together... Even after someone or a few die.

Why is this so hard for you to comprehend?


If two people had a "fight to the death" (gasp, you mean actual consequences for fighting), then one of those or perhaps both would fall, and DIE.

Why this is absent in what is supposed to be an RPG is astonishing to me...

The war with the dark spawn could be over in a day.    Just make sure one dude survives among the thousands that are fighting, and you win.

0 deaths on your side.

or do darkspawn get up after being "unconsious"
haha

#43
President Josiah Bartlett

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This is the age-old (well, age-old in terms of videogaming, anyway) argument of Realism vs. Gameplay. At some point in the development process, one has to be sacrificed for the sake of the other. Personally, I would pick gameplay over realism 100% of the time: it is, after all, a game. If I want realism I'll look out the window.

Now, I agree with you Poopy, party members falling down ('dying') and getting straight back up at the end of the fight and regenerating all their health is unrealistic. I'm not buying the other arguments from the posters here about it representing the party members healing you or this that and the other; it is flat out unrealistic. But it's a gameplay choice. I played Baldur's Gate I, II, and ToB to death when they came out, and for many years afterwards. In Baldur's Gate I, there was no Raise Dead spell for your party members, because the level cap was at level 8, 9, or 10, depending on your class, far too low to be unlocking level five Priest spells. If a party member died in combat, you had to pick up all their gear, trudge back across the map, travel to a temple, hand over money for them to be raised, then re-equip all their gear. It was tedious, it was irritating, it was not fun. Realistic, yes, you could argue, given the 'game rules' of that world, but boring as hell in practice. So it ended up that if a party member died the vast majority of gamers (though I appreciate you're probably not in this group) would simply reload the fight and do it again. Not much realism there. 

By the time you get to Baldur's Gate II, when your party members did start getting Raise Dead, the reloading behaviour had become so ingrained you didn't bother casting it. You just reloaded, and saved those spells slots for more important things (like Flamestrike :-p). And as for the Rods of Resurrection, well. Once you got hold of those, you never had to worry about dying ever again! Ten charges each, instantly resurrect a party member back to full health, and there were two of them in the game you could get hold of quite early on. You spend 10K for the first one and then loot the other from Mekrath in the sewers and then you're home dry. Twenty resurrections, twenty 'lives', twenty times of being killed and getting straight back up again. More than enough to get you through that game and ToB as well, where there was a third one available, if I recall correctly. You didn't even have to wait for the end of the fight, either. And you could recharge it if you knew the cheesy merchant sell-it-then-steal-it-back trick. At least in Dragon Age when your party members get back up they have some marks on them.

My point is (though I have digressed somewhat), the cleric/healing mechanic in the Baldur's Gate games didn't add challenge, it added tedium. At the end of a hard fight, my clerics would spend a good couple of minutes casting healing spells to put everyone back up to full health, and then I'd have to clamber out of the dungeon to find a place to rest to get my spells back before carrying on. Or I'd try and rest in the dungeon and get ambushed three or four times, finally heal, and then have to rest again to get all of those spells back. I'd much rather accept the idea that my Dragon Age characters get 'knocked out' and get back up again with injuries than the thought of my BG character getting his head down for eight hours just outside the dragon's lair.

And that's that. That is what I believe. The Baldur's Gate healing system (which was of course the D&D 2nd Ed. healing system) was incredibly boring. The Dragon Age system is by no means perfect, but I believe it to be a big improvement, because at no point does it become tedious. I will take gameplay over realism any day of the week, and so would the vast majority of gamers. If that disappoints you, if that angers you, that's your prerogative. But I don't think you're going to get what you're looking for here.

Modifié par President Josiah Bartlett, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:10 .


#44
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PoopyStuff wrote...
I can't believe I'm entertaining this..


I can't believe that you haven't moved on.

PoopyStuff wrote...
It's not hard to explain...
People. Die.


It's a game. Why get so upset with a GAME?

PoopyStuff wrote...
Why this is absent in what is supposed to be an RPG is astonishing to me...


It's still a game and that's the way BioWare designed it; they're not going to change it because you don't like it. AFAIK, there aren't any specific rules on how to make any game, let alone an RPG.

Seriously, you are stuck; you are gnawing away at an old bone that you need to drop, bury and forget about.

When I first played DA:O, I also had an 'expectancy.' That it would be a lot like what I was used to in NWN, particularly the rogue and was initially disappointed. I put the game away for a while. The next time I played it, it was without any expectancy of how the game should be and it was far more enjoyable. As have been the additional times I played it.

The game is supposed to be entertaining. If that has failed for you, put it behind you, sell it, bury it, but move on to something you CAN enjoy. But really, just put it away for a while and try playing it in a couple of months and see if your opinion has changed. Try to play Dragon Age as it was created, not as you're expecting it.

#45
bussinrounds

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Geez, just reload when a character goes down like everybody else does that likes DA, but doesn't care for automatic resurrections.

#46
PoopyStuff

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I expected something akin to baldur's gate

What I got was something akin to ME or Wow.



That's my beef in its complete form.



They used the name BG, having been the title they are most well known for, and got people into this game based on an old games popularity.



And then proceeded to completely change the formula that made me fall in love with BG.



I didn't wanna play Wow.

I didn't wanna play ME.

I didn't wanna play, "immortal party members" "the animated series"



I expected something to a throw back of the old days

what I got was a **** sandwich.










#47
UFOash

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I remember joking with a friend of mine that WoW (at least RP realms) should make your characters death's permenant! Posted Image

Fatal flaw...you play many many hours then your character gets cheap-shotted by some hidden bandit archer & your dead! Posted Image

Would be hilarious though some one level like 30 or something standing at spawn area's cutting down all newbiesPosted Image

#48
Elencia

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LOL!!! If you want "reality" then go outside your computer lab, and try fighting some real people. I guarantee that you will not get up if you die then.

#49
Flambergius

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Like a couple of other people have already said: when it's gameplay vs. realism go with gameplay almost always. And this particular case is even pretty easy one: have the character that drop be just incapacitated, not dead. Just as realistic.

However, DAO is an easy game, some kinds of hardcore modes might not be out of place. Ironman mode (permanent death) would be my favorite.

#50
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Haven't read the entirety of the thread but as an avid fan and admirer of the BG Trilogy (which I still consider the best RPG game ever to grace a PC screen) I just would like to offer my 2 cents.
You "can't say" the game is crap. It has differences, it is a different game from BG but just because there's no in combat individual death and you hate it, you paint the whole game with sinister colors. You do it an injustice and you also deprive yourself of a very good gaming experience.
I understand your frustration. I was also like "woah!!! what's this? no deaths? already up? ready to go?" . You know what? Next time I looked at the clock, 6 hours had gone by and I didn't even notice.
To me THAT's immersion. To be absorbed to the game. To completely swallow you into its world.

Bioware RPG's of today have gotten a very very quick pace compared to the old ones. Maybe because the game industry is moving on, who knows? There are tons of things in DAO which blow BG out of the sky (but still don't make it better) but what is going on is that you're playing a game of today, instead of a game of many many years ago. Combat was not the only thing to surprise me. There are many more but I can't possibly write them down now.
All I'm trying to say is, accept the game for what it is, let go of your constant comparison to BG and just enjoy a very well crafted 21th century game.

Modifié par Acharnae, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:26 .