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[Eternal Phoenix]

 Everyone knows about The Maker. He is quite interesting including the arguments centered around Him. However, we never discovered much about him did we? The guardian we meet in The gauntlet explains hardly anything and Justice has no idea if the Maker is real or not. I think that the existence of the guardian confirms that The Maker is real. But is the Maker truly the maker or just a noble and just spirit? 
Thoughts? Ideas? Speculation? And for the love of the Lord, I hope Bioware put in dialogue choices which make our character a believer like in the first. I think there should be more people in the game who debate you on that subject as well. Last time, we only had Morrigan who believes in the old gods and the Dwarfs who basically worship themselves. 

[AlexXIV]

Elton John is dead wrote...

 Everyone knows about The Maker. He is quite interesting including the arguments centered around Him. However, we never discovered much about him did we? The guardian we meet in The gauntlet explains hardly anything and Justice has no idea if the Maker is real or not. I think that the existence of the guardian confirms that The Maker is real. But is the Maker truly the maker or just a noble and just spirit? 
Thoughts? Ideas? Speculation? And for the love of the Lord, I hope Bioware put in dialogue choices which make our character a believer like in the first. I think there should be more people in the game who debate you on that subject as well. Last time, we only had Morrigan who believes in the old gods and the Dwarfs who basically worship themselves. 

The Guardian in the maze is hardly proof of anything, unless you found some proof that everything he says must be true. We don't know what exactly Morrigan believes, that she believes in the Old Gods is an assumption at best.. And the dwarves worship their ancestors, which makes more sense than believing in some absently father figure, to say it with Morrigan's words. I find your views of DA religion quite skewed which doesn't surprise me since you used 'for the love of the lord' in your post. The Maker is to me something of myth and legend, but so is Flemeth. So there could be more to Him than we saw in DA:O - which was pretty much nothing.

[FlintlockJazz]

AlexXIV wrote...

I find your views of DA religion quite skewed which doesn't surprise me since you used 'for the love of the lord' in your post.

Oh my, there was no need to be so aggressive towards him, at no point did he state his opinion as fact, on the contrary his post is asking what other people think.  If you have a differing opinion that's fine but there is no need to bring in your own religious intolerances, especially when his 'for the love of the lord' comment might just have been a tongue in cheek reference to DAO's maker, which is what it came across to me as.

To OP, I agree they should keep the option to follow or not follow the maker though they should also keep his existence ambiguous still, since that was one of the things I loved about the game, and being able to debate it ingame made it more interesting.  I do think they should have made the templars a bit more fanatical, for a group of witch-burning zealots they seemed rather...tame, and quite open-minded, but then the threat of abominations wasn't played up enough either in my books so it would have just made them seem more unlikable.  I'd quite like the idea of both being either a stout, pious crusader or a heretical freedom fighter, and also of course their darker versions of being a dogmatic, bloodthristy zealot and the blasphemous demon worshipper.

[TimelordDC]

The Maker can either be viewed as a spoiled brat who decided to abandon his people because some people dared to come into his play-area and rediscovered his people in order to have Andraste as a wife

(or)

The Maker is entirely a myth created by the Chantry. It's likely the same as the real world - personification of something beyond our understanding and in our attempts to characterize the Maker, we give him some of the same qualities we ourselves have.



But I agree...there should be more such conversations as with Morrigan though I also concede that it would be hard to write an extensive conversation with both believer/non-believer options. I also think it would work only with characters that have a strong belief in their own way of thinking and are willing to defend their faiths. For example, I doubt a similar conversation with Leliana with the player as a non-believer would work...she's just too docile.

[Collider]

The writers have intentionally made the existence of the Maker ambiguous.

[Dileos]

The Maker seem to be inspired by the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god, and the Chantry seems like the medieval Christian church. So the way I see it, the Maker isn't real hes an idea that the Chantry uses to control people, to get people to think a certain way and to possibly get them to think in a way the leaders of Ferleden feel favorable (the exalted marches against the quanari for example). He is simply an idea that can be used by the Chantry to manipulate people. Just as the actual Church did at the time and to a lesser extent, continues to do today.

[Eternal Phoenix]

AlexXIV wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

 Everyone knows about The Maker. He is quite interesting including the arguments centered around Him. However, we never discovered much about him did we? The guardian we meet in The gauntlet explains hardly anything and Justice has no idea if the Maker is real or not. I think that the existence of the guardian confirms that The Maker is real. But is the Maker truly the maker or just a noble and just spirit? 
Thoughts? Ideas? Speculation? And for the love of the Lord, I hope Bioware put in dialogue choices which make our character a believer like in the first. I think there should be more people in the game who debate you on that subject as well. Last time, we only had Morrigan who believes in the old gods and the Dwarfs who basically worship themselves. 

The Guardian in the maze is hardly proof of anything, unless you found some proof that everything he says must be true. We don't know what exactly Morrigan believes, that she believes in the Old Gods is an assumption at best.. And the dwarves worship their ancestors, which makes more sense than believing in some absently father figure, to say it with Morrigan's words. I find your views of DA religion quite skewed which doesn't surprise me since you used 'for the love of the lord' in your post. The Maker is to me something of myth and legend, but so is Flemeth. So there could be more to Him than we saw in DA:O - which was pretty much nothing.

Don't believe I am hating at you here but I just wanted to say this:

Why is the guardian not proof of anything? Where did he get his immortality from? You say my knowledge of religion in DA is skewed yet you are the one who said the guardian was in a maze. As I stated, I believe the Urn of sacred ashes and the guardian confirm the existence of The Maker, I never said he was the being who created everything now did I? The Old Gods exist after all.  The Chantry says The Maker chained them up (God sending Satan to Hell if you ask me) so maybe he battled these Old Gods and was just a noble spirit as I said who somehow entered the real world. I don't think He is a human though. To understand The Maker, you must understand the religions he is based of off and I understand them very well. The chant of light says that The Maker forged man in his image. The Bible says "Let us make man in our image". See what I mean? 

Dileos wrote...

The Maker seem to be inspired by the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god, and the Chantry seems like the medieval Christian church. So the way I see it, the Maker isn't real hes an idea that the Chantry uses to control people, to get people to think a certain way and to possibly get them to think in a way the leaders of Ferleden feel favorable (the exalted marches against the quanari for example). He is simply an idea that can be used by the Chantry to manipulate people. Just as the actual Church did at the time and to a lesser extent, continues to do today.

I disagree. The Maker is inspired by God, yes but the prophetess is inspired by Mohammed since she went out to war. She also freed slaves did she not? For there to be a Chantry, there would have to have been people who saw The Maker or thought they saw to make it. After all if someone made a new religion with a god in it, do you think people would convert to it? 

FlintlockJazz wrote...

 I'd quite like the idea of both being either a stout, pious crusader or a heretical freedom fighter, and also of course their darker versions of being a dogmatic, bloodthristy zealot and the blasphemous demon worshipper.

Agreed. I would like to see dialogue options that allow you to make such characters. 

Collider wrote...

The writers have intentionally made the existence of the Maker ambiguous.

I guess that is true. I would like there to be more about Him though. Perhaps we have people in the game who have theories about him. I think we should find out more about "The Black City" as well. I think Him actually appearing in the game would ruin it. Keeping him ambiguous creates lore and mystery. 

[AlexXIV]

Dileos wrote...

The Maker seem to be inspired by the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god, and the Chantry seems like the medieval Christian church. So the way I see it, the Maker isn't real hes an idea that the Chantry uses to control people, to get people to think a certain way and to possibly get them to think in a way the leaders of Ferleden feel favorable (the exalted marches against the quanari for example). He is simply an idea that can be used by the Chantry to manipulate people. Just as the actual Church did at the time and to a lesser extent, continues to do today.

Well it is a game in which magic exists and gods may as well. Also the creation myth may be the 'truth' and evolution a 'falso theory'. Since well, it is not a real world and doesn't follow the same rules as the real world. So I wouldn't say the Maker doesn't exist for sure. I still agree with you that I would like to see proof. Magic exists and it can be proven (in Dragon Age, disclaimer). So if the gods should exist it should be just as possible to prove.

[Eternal Phoenix]

If the Book "The Search for the True Prophet" is anything to go by. Andraste was just a mage which would explain her ashes healing people and the guardian being immortal. However, what about the spirits you see in The Fade? Do they not account for anything? They are the spirits of dead people. I know Justice said that even he doesn't know where those spirits go too but this doesn't necessarily mean that after The Fade, it is just black as some people suggested about that statement. After all, it wouldn't make sense for them to have spirits and to survive in the Fade. For all we know, reincarnation is what happens in the DA universe. Which is why I see the spirits in DA as proof for a creator in DA.

Also the old gods are real. That's what the Arch demons are. 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:23 .

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

 Everyone knows about The Maker. He is quite interesting including the arguments centered around Him. However, we never discovered much about him did we? The guardian we meet in The gauntlet explains hardly anything and Justice has no idea if the Maker is real or not. I think that the existence of the guardian confirms that The Maker is real. But is the Maker truly the maker or just a noble and just spirit? 
Thoughts? Ideas? Speculation? And for the love of the Lord, I hope Bioware put in dialogue choices which make our character a believer like in the first. I think there should be more people in the game who debate you on that subject as well. Last time, we only had Morrigan who believes in the old gods and the Dwarfs who basically worship themselves. 

The Guardian in the maze is hardly proof of anything, unless you found some proof that everything he says must be true. We don't know what exactly Morrigan believes, that she believes in the Old Gods is an assumption at best.. And the dwarves worship their ancestors, which makes more sense than believing in some absently father figure, to say it with Morrigan's words. I find your views of DA religion quite skewed which doesn't surprise me since you used 'for the love of the lord' in your post. The Maker is to me something of myth and legend, but so is Flemeth. So there could be more to Him than we saw in DA:O - which was pretty much nothing.

Don't believe I am hating at you here but I just wanted to say this:

Why is the guardian not proof of anything? Where did he get his immortality from?

The onus is on the ones asserting proof, not on the ones who are skeptical.

Where DID he get his immortality from? Do you KNOW it was from the maker? Could it not be simply some kind of magic? That is why he's saying it's not proof of anything. Evidence, perhaps, but circumstantial evidence at best. That he is simply there doesn't prove anything, any more than the existence of a tree proves that God created it.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Hmmm, you should really read the whole argument before posting SirOccum. The onus is actually on the ones asking the question, I agree. If I ask you what makes Atheism true, you need to reply and give your evidence, this is something no atheist ever does and I was asking that guy why he thought the guardian wasn't proof of anything despite the fact that he was immortal. I addressed that and came up with something new. There is no need to rage. It is just a game and this topic was created for friendly debate. Did I say something to offend you? I thought not.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Dileos]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it is a game in which magic exists and gods may as well. Also the creation myth may be the 'truth' and evolution a 'falso theory'. Since well, it is not a real world and doesn't follow the same rules as the real world. So I wouldn't say the Maker doesn't exist for sure. I still agree with you that I would like to see proof. Magic exists and it can be proven (in Dragon Age, disclaimer). So if the gods should exist it should be just as possible to prove.

Exactly however magic existing does not mean that gods (other than the old gods..and who knows about that either) exist.

Magic even seems to be responsible for Andraste's Urn. That is why the Chantry is so controling of magic. Magic explains the entire "Maker Delusion". The guardian, the ghost memories, the power of the Urn itself. All of it gets its power from the lyrium in the mountain.

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Hmmm, you should really read the whole argument before posting SirOccum. I addressed that and came up with something new. There is no need to rage. It is just a game and this topic was created for friendly debate. Did I say something to offend you? I thought not.

Rage? Where did I sound like I was offended?

[Eternal Phoenix]

The capital letters? Never mind.

[TimelordDC]

Elton John is dead wrote...

The Old Gods exist after all.  The Chantry says The Maker chained them up (God sending Satan to Hell if you ask me) so maybe he battled these Old Gods and was just a noble spirit as I said who somehow entered the real world. I don't think He is a human though.

What the Chantry says is irrelevant...that's an organization of humans invented by humans.

Elton John is dead wrote...

To understand The Maker, you must understand the religions he is based of off and I understand them very well. The chant of light says that The Maker forged man in his image. The Bible says "Let us make man in our image". See what I mean? 

You also have to understand that the writers drew inspiration from a religion they are closely associated with..
Really, the chant of light was written by men.

Elton John is dead wrote...

The Maker is inspired by God, yes but the prophetess is inspired by Mohammed since she went out to war.

Andraste led a group of people believing in the Maker against another group of people. I think you can draw parallels from many religions for this.

Elton John is dead wrote...

After all if someone made a new religion with a god in it, do you think people would convert to it? 

Ahem...I believe all current religions are based around that concept. Some have prophets, some have incarnations, some have god-like figures but none have actually proved that a god exists (and no, I don't want to go into that argument)

Modifié par TimelordDC, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

http://www.telegraph...e-happened.html

Not all is based on Zero proof. 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:31 .

[TimelordDC]

Actually, I realized after immediately posting it that it was unwarranted. I removed it before seeing your post and if I offended you, my apologies.

[Eternal Phoenix]

It's okay. I removed mine too.

[Dileos]

TimelordDC wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

After all if someone made a new religion with a god in it, do you think people would convert to it? 

Ahem...I believe all current religions are based around that concept. Some have prophets, some have incarnations, some have god-like figures but none have actually proved that a god exists (and no, I don't want to go into that argument)

This. Every religion started like that. A man with a book and a chip on his shoulder screeching about Heaven/The Black City/ 72 virgins/ Nivarna/ect. The Chantry does more bad than good, and shows zero proof of the Makers existence.

And even if the Maker does exist, he sounds like an ass. Humanity enters the Golden City and he stomps off like a child. Sounds kind of familiar in a religious context.

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

The capital letters? Never mind.

That was just for emphasis.

Anyway, I did read the whole thing, and re-read it again after your post, and I don't see where you addressed the Guardian again after that. You make a further claim about the existence of spirits implying a creator, but that, to my mind, is pretty much the same kind of argument as the Guardian one. I don't see any reason why spirits can't exist without a creator.

[grillz]

Moses vs The Maker. who would win.

[Dileos]

grillz wrote...

Moses vs The Maker. who would win.

Odin

[AlexXIV]

Elton John is dead wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

 Everyone knows about The Maker. He is quite interesting including the arguments centered around Him. However, we never discovered much about him did we? The guardian we meet in The gauntlet explains hardly anything and Justice has no idea if the Maker is real or not. I think that the existence of the guardian confirms that The Maker is real. But is the Maker truly the maker or just a noble and just spirit? 
Thoughts? Ideas? Speculation? And for the love of the Lord, I hope Bioware put in dialogue choices which make our character a believer like in the first. I think there should be more people in the game who debate you on that subject as well. Last time, we only had Morrigan who believes in the old gods and the Dwarfs who basically worship themselves. 

The Guardian in the maze is hardly proof of anything, unless you found some proof that everything he says must be true. We don't know what exactly Morrigan believes, that she believes in the Old Gods is an assumption at best.. And the dwarves worship their ancestors, which makes more sense than believing in some absently father figure, to say it with Morrigan's words. I find your views of DA religion quite skewed which doesn't surprise me since you used 'for the love of the lord' in your post. The Maker is to me something of myth and legend, but so is Flemeth. So there could be more to Him than we saw in DA:O - which was pretty much nothing.

Don't believe I am hating at you here but I just wanted to say this:

Why is the guardian not proof of anything? Where did he get his immortality from? You say my knowledge of religion in DA is skewed yet you are the one who said the guardian was in a maze. As I stated, I believe the Urn of sacred ashes and the guardian confirm the existence of The Maker, I never said he was the being who created everything now did I? The Old Gods exist after all.  The Chantry says The Maker chained them up (God sending Satan to Hell if you ask me) so maybe he battled these Old Gods and was just a noble spirit as I said who somehow entered the real world. I don't think He is a human though. To understand The Maker, you must understand the religions he is based of off and I understand them very well. The chant of light says that The Maker forged man in his image. The Bible says "Let us make man in our image". See what I mean? 

Well don't believe I don't respect religion. I don't rightly know what I should believe irl and I certainly have no intention to defend any sort of belief, not even the one that believes nothing.

I said your view is biased because you believe everything that comes from the Chantry, while at the other hand you talk about other beliefs slightly condescending. You say the Old Gods exist. You can believe that but there is no proof that they do or did, and there is neither proof that Archdemons are tainted Old Gods. They could as well be tainted High Dragons.

The spirits you meet at supposed Andraste's resting place could just be placed there. There is no way to make sure what they say is true. Neither do we know if they really guard Andraste's Ashes, nor do we know why they have the power to heal Arl Eamon. I know it looks like proof for Chantry teaching, but matter of factly it only proves that there is a place where spirits guard lyrium infused ashes which had the power to heal Eamon.

It could for example have been set up by some Andraste cult equally fanatic as the ones you met on the way. The truth is not if something happens that you have no explaination for. The truth is if something can only be one way and not possibly different.

While the Chantry is probably based on rl religion I don't think it is a good idea to compare or even judge on that base. It is only a game really, and in a game I expect gods to be real. Like in BG2, like in Jade Empire, like in Planescape:Torment. Because in a game it is possible to meet a real god, and there is not really any excuse for it not being possible. In a game you don't need a god unless you actually do. Basically it happens like this. You look around you and see many bad things happening to the world. And then you wonder why this high and mighty being doesn't do anything about it. And then you wonder if you can respect that. And then you walk away.

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

http://www.telegraph...e-happened.html

Not all is based on Zero proof.

Not to belabor the point, but that article is not proof either. They demonstrated how it could have happened. They did not prove that it did happen.

The scientists found that an east wind of 63 mph blowing for 12 hours would have driven the shallow waters back, both into the lake and the river channel.

So they figured that out, but they did not say that an east wind of 63 mph did blow for 12 hours.

Anyway, my point is there's a difference between proof and evidence and establishing plausibility.

Modifié par SirOccam, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:39 .

[AlexXIV]

Dileos wrote...

grillz wrote...

Moses vs The Maker. who would win.

Odin

Lara Croft ... err ... I meant Thor.