295 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Acharnae wrote...

it's not the same.
How long can a "spirit remain near the body"?
Do you know that? I certaintly don't.

Not near. In.

As long as the spirit is there, you're not truly dead. 

[Herr Uhl]

Acharnae wrote...

Finally, life is finite. A truly great healer may bring someone back from the very precipice of death, when breath and heartbeat have ceased but the spirit still clings to life. But once the spirit has fled the body, it cannot be recalled. That is no failing of your skills or power, it is simple reality.

The spirit clings to life. Not the character.

Do you consider someone that flatlines and then is brought back by a heart massage brought back from the dead?

And the part about the spirit fleeing the body heavily implies that it is in the body.

[Fishy]

Imagine you're the most powerful being of the universe.So powerful that even the universe seem small compared to you.You created everything in existence ..Why would you pop infront of a crowd and brag about it?



-I am the Maker!!Wooooooo .. (Seem more like Zeus than God)

-I ammm the maker ... bow before my might WoooWooo



Bragging about your power seem more like what humanity would do over an all powerful omni being.I don't see the point of the creator flexing his e-peen all over the place.Or caring for that matter about who worship him or not.Thus that the reason i believe in god but i reject the idea of religion or the chantry . Which are made by human for human . It's just another form of manipulation and indoctrination!!!!



Yeah baby!!



He's absent .. What?You think he's somewhere sitting on his diamond throne and checkng his subject?Just like real life . Too many ppl see *god* has an individual .Has something you can touch with your hand and will talk back to you , with a loud echo voice.



Personnaly i think Jesus was a philisopher and he understood much more about god than anyone else .

[Herr Uhl]

Acharnae wrote...

What I say flat out is that the spirit could linger there for months.
That's also why I said "near". Just making it plain.

Considering that you can't save people that get killed, I see Spirit Healers as something akin to a top of the line hospital, but better.

I say we just disagree on this one. That the spirit would be in the body for any long period of time (same time as for someone that ceases to have a heartbeat to not being able to bring back would be my guess) to be implausible. But that is just me.

[Herr Uhl]

Yeah. But I remember the devs saying that you could not bring back the dead or teleport repeatedly during the development of DAO, so it is a knee jerk reaction to see it the way I see it for me.

[AlexXIV]

double

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 octobre 2010 - 09:10 .

[AlexXIV]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well for once we have Justice who is a spirit but was sucked into a decaying body. He could animate it, converse through it but he could not stop the decay, for instance. So I guess after a certain point a body can't be healed simply because the decay has proceeded too far.

Then we have Niall. His body should not have decayed that much but his spirit was caught in the Fade too long to return. Which raises the question if being in the Fade does actually mean that the spirit is outside of the body. If so it must maintain a link for a while, we can go to the Fade and return.

Then we have Wynne, who should have died in battle but was 'saved' by a spirit. But still, maintaining Wynne's health seems to weaken the spirit so that Wynne does not expect to live much longer. I take it then that another spirit than your own has trouble to keep the body alive even if there is no sign of decay, and even if the true spirit of the body still remains within it, the person (as an unity of body and spirit) can still not be restored to what it was before the other spirit interfered.

[FlintlockJazz]

GamiSB wrote...
The title already does that. The discussion is over if or if not The Maker exist. Word play trying to define god is pointless as we already have an established definition for the being in question.

It is not wordplay, so don't just dismiss it as such.  Define what powers the maker requires to be counted as a god.  Define what powers the Old Gods require to be counted as gods (significantly different from what little we have).  Does the maker have to take the form as stated by the chantry or has it been corrupted or misunderstood?  If the maker is merely a super powerful spirit as defined by DAO does that stop him from still being a god?  Would it matter one bit if the Old Gods were indeed really powerful dragons, they could still be classed as gods right?  Maybe the maker exists more in line with the elvish gods, it is theorised that the god that locked the other elf gods away was the maker after all, would him being an elf god matter? 

Why I ask this is this: If we presume that the powers and capabilities of the maker is not necessarily what the chantry says it is then arguments saying he doesn't exist because an all-powerful being would do x no longer remain relevant as it could now be assumed that he simply doesn't have the power needed to do things as easily as implied by the chantry, whereas if people are arguing that it does need to have the powers as prescribed by the Chantry to qualify as a god then either he doesn't exist or he isn't a god.

[grillz]

Just remember even fade spirits don't know if there is a maker.

[captain.subtle]

grillz wrote...

Just remember even fade spirits don't know if there is a maker.

Well... Some of them do.

But Justice SPECULATES that they might have seen him in dreams of Mortals.... So even He's not sure that it is so.

[GamiSB]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
It is not wordplay, so don't just dismiss it as such.  Define what powers the maker requires to be counted as a god.  Define what powers the Old Gods require to be counted as gods (significantly different from what little we have).  Does the maker have to take the form as stated by the chantry or has it been corrupted or misunderstood?  If the maker is merely a super powerful spirit as defined by DAO does that stop him from still being a god?  Would it matter one bit if the Old Gods were indeed really powerful dragons, they could still be classed as gods right?  Maybe the maker exists more in line with the elvish gods, it is theorised that the god that locked the other elf gods away was the maker after all, would him being an elf god matter? 

Why I ask this is this: If we presume that the powers and capabilities of the maker is not necessarily what the chantry says it is then arguments saying he doesn't exist because an all-powerful being would do x no longer remain relevant as it could now be assumed that he simply doesn't have the power needed to do things as easily as implied by the chantry, whereas if people are arguing that it does need to have the powers as prescribed by the Chantry to qualify as a god then either he doesn't exist or he isn't a god.

It is word play, you can call the sky green but everyone still sees the same color. Debating over the definition of "God" is pointless (especially when there already is a settled general definition of one and arguing over it is only
something pseudo-intellectuals attempting to sound “deep” do) Again we know who we are talking about and we know whats attributed to him. 

The discussion isn't over what he can do or how much he knows or if the Chantry's version of him is correct. it's over if there is a Maker period. It also isn't a question over if Omniscience is possible or using a paradox about Omnipotence, IE can God create a rock he can't lift, to try and disprove even the possiblity of a God because we don't know enough about the Dragon Age Universe to determine if there is even a paradox in the first place. So such philosophical arguments are irrelevant to begin with.

Modifié par GamiSB, 07 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[tool_bot]

Suprez30 wrote...

He's absent .. What?You think he's somewhere sitting on his diamond throne and checkng his subject?Just like real life . Too many ppl see *god* has an individual .Has something you can touch with your hand and will talk back to you , with a loud echo voice.

So what you're saying is *god* is an entirely superfluous construct of the human mind?

I couldn't agree more. 

[tool_bot]

Acharnae wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Acharnae wrote...

What I say flat out is that the spirit could linger there for months.
That's also why I said "near". Just making it plain.

Considering that you can't save people that get killed, I see Spirit Healers as something akin to a top of the line hospital, but better.

I say we just disagree on this one. That the spirit would be in the body for any long period of time (same time as for someone that ceases to have a heartbeat to not being able to bring back would be my guess) to be implausible. But that is just me.

I don't disagree with you on that. This is also my understanding concerning the time frame a spirit healer has in his disposition to bring back people from death, or, to revive them, if you will. What I was saying is that that codex could also be read as bringing people back from the (recently) dead (the "spirit" parameter).

I think you guys are reading to much into it. I'm all for dissecting a gameverse but given just how foggy everything in the DA universe is it's unlikely to lead anywhere.

[FlintlockJazz]

GamiSB wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
It is not wordplay, so don't just dismiss it as such.  Define what powers the maker requires to be counted as a god.  Define what powers the Old Gods require to be counted as gods (significantly different from what little we have).  Does the maker have to take the form as stated by the chantry or has it been corrupted or misunderstood?  If the maker is merely a super powerful spirit as defined by DAO does that stop him from still being a god?  Would it matter one bit if the Old Gods were indeed really powerful dragons, they could still be classed as gods right?  Maybe the maker exists more in line with the elvish gods, it is theorised that the god that locked the other elf gods away was the maker after all, would him being an elf god matter? 

Why I ask this is this: If we presume that the powers and capabilities of the maker is not necessarily what the chantry says it is then arguments saying he doesn't exist because an all-powerful being would do x no longer remain relevant as it could now be assumed that he simply doesn't have the power needed to do things as easily as implied by the chantry, whereas if people are arguing that it does need to have the powers as prescribed by the Chantry to qualify as a god then either he doesn't exist or he isn't a god.

It is word play, you can call the sky green but everyone still sees the same color. Debating over the definition of "God" is pointless (especially when there already is a settled general definition of one and arguing over it is only
something pseudo-intellectuals attempting to sound “deep” do) Again we know who we are talking about and we know whats attributed to him. 

The discussion isn't over what he can do or how much he knows or if the Chantry's version of him is correct. it's over if there is a Maker period. It also isn't a question over if Omniscience is possible or using a paradox about Omnipotence, IE can God create a rock he can't lift, to try and disprove even the possiblity of a God because we don't know enough about the Dragon Age Universe to determine if there is even a paradox in the first place. So such philosophical arguments are irrelevant to begin with.

Yes, its over whether he exists at all, and what form he may take and whether he could still be classed and deserving of being a god and worshipped.  It is not whether omniscience is possible but whether he has it or not, and I did not mention anything about paradoxes, you're bringing that in yourself but whatever mate, I'm not going to argue it with you since I'm just not interested in arguing about what I meant and what some guy on the interweb is trying to make it out I meant, I just thought it would be an interesting approach to attack the idea from, whatevers.  Bye.

[AlexXIV]

Does the Chantry even have a proper creation myth? Most religions I would assume have that, at least those who worship personified gods and have a rich collection of myths and legends around them. Because basically the question following the queston of if he created the world would be, how he did it, or not?

[Maconbar]

vilnii wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

@Grillz

Moses, he would snap the DA disk in half.

@Dielos

I asked a question which has yet to be proved. Do you think if someone created a religion now that said that a god told them to do so, would gain followers? People needed to see to join in the first place.

@SirOccam

I just had the assumption that immortal spirits can only exist due to a creator with great power making them everlasting. My bad.

The Maker will never be seen, and if if he is, people in the game world will never recognize him as the Maker

This is why it baffles me that Bioware does not show us more about him. The fact is that unless he comes out and destroys the world, or wipes out the darkspawn with one wave of hand, belief in him will always be a matter of faith.

So why not tell us more about him?

If they provide us concrete information about the Maker then its not a matter of faith.

[Eternal Phoenix]

vilnii wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

@Grillz

Moses, he would snap the DA disk in half.

@Dielos

I asked a question which has yet to be proved. Do you think if someone created a religion now that said that a god told them to do so, would gain followers? People needed to see to join in the first place.

@SirOccam

I just had the assumption that immortal spirits can only exist due to a creator with great power making them everlasting. My bad.

The Maker will never be seen, and if if he is, people in the game world will never recognize him as the Maker

This is why it baffles me that Bioware does not show us more about him. The fact is that unless he comes out and destroys the world, or wipes out the darkspawn with one wave of hand, belief in him will always be a matter of faith.

So why not tell us more about him?

Firstly: YES THE TROLLS ARE GONE AND THE TOPIC IS BACK TO BEING ON-TOPIC!

Secondly: Yes, they should tell us more about The Maker. More verses of the chant of light should be in the game as well. 

Thirdly to those who doubt the Maker existing: In DA; souls are a fact correct? Remember hearing that destroying the Archdemon would make its soul try to occupy your body along with yours which would destroy both souls? Souls are supernatural and I am sure in DA they remain supernatural as well. 

Further more, Old Gods do exist:


"The archdemon in Dragon Age Orgins is revealed to be Urthemiel, the Tenviter god of beauty. In Awakenings, it is revealed that it became an archdemon as the result of a botched attempt by The Architect to turn it into a Disciple." -- From the Dragon Age Wikia. 

Gods are confirmed as existing in DA just like they were in BG as that shows. However, they just don't interfere with mankind any more and thus represent the Deist view for now. I doubt the deities in the game will make themselves known in any of the games of DA. 

Like villni said, The Maker does exists but we can't be sure if he IS THE MAKER or just another god or a noble spirit. Further more, how was the Guardian able to see into the past of you and your companions? As far as I know, magic does not make people see into the past in DA. Correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, I hope DAII has more about The Maker, The Golden City and the old gods and perhaps ever a chance to get a quick look at the Black City from a distance.
 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:18 .

[In Exile]

There are certain supernatural things which we consider part of religion that we know have to be true. Souls, for one. Given the endgame scenario with the archdemon, souls are absolutely not in any sense metaphorical. They are also clearly non-corporial, given the mechanism of the US and the DR.

So we have clear evidence that a soul exists. There is clearly some mechanism at work by which an entirely non-physical representation of yourself exists in another form of existence, i.e. the Fade. It is quite reasonable to suppose that what travels into the Fade is the soul. I think positing a third metaphysical entity is unjustified at this point.

This kind of supernatural thing is not evidence for any other kind of supernatural thing.

The Guardian is far more interesting. He is clearly not physical, since he can teleport. He is plausibly not an Ash Wraith, though we see Ash Wraiths posessing a human-like form and even conversing with you to a limited degree in the temple. We see that he can read your memories, but we have seen other Fade spirits do this as well (the sloth demon, for example). He is ignorant about developments outside of his domain (i.e. the fate of Tevinter). He ostensibly can be fought and killed.

What we know is that Andraste had her remains brought to Ferelden by her followers who included an Archon who was very obviously a blood mage. They were all quite devout, and to become Ash Wraiths (per the codex) they "gave" themselves to the fire. Could this have been blood magic at work? Was a special ritual used to create the guardian?

We have seen Tevinter mages produce incredible things using souls and blood (i.e. the immortal stone statue in the phylactery repository).

The old gods are very interesting, though. Dragons seem to have some strange powers - look at the cultists of Andraste. They used blood magic (in essence) to become Reavers, and they ostensibly received that knowledge from a (female) high dragon. How closely does this parallel the story of the magisters and the old gods? I would say quite a lot. So to what extent can we say that the old gods are unique entities, compared to what other dragon could potentially do?

The archdemon (and so arguably the old gods) do have qualities that are in a sense godly - they have their song that calls out to the darkspawn, they have wings despite being male, and they are (at least as archdemons) capable of some kind of organized thought and planning.

[GamiSB]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Yes, its over whether he exists at all, and what form he may take and whether he could still be classed and deserving of being a god and worshipped.  It is not whether omniscience is possible but whether he has it or not, and I did not mention anything about paradoxes, you're bringing that in yourself but whatever mate, I'm not going to argue it with you since I'm just not interested in arguing about what I meant and what some guy on the interweb is trying to make it out I meant, I just thought it would be an interesting approach to attack the idea from, whatevers.  Bye.

Do you even understand what "how do you define god" mens? Obviously not if you believe I am the one brining up things like paradoxes. You imply that they need discussion when you try and make this about "what is God" rather than "does God exist". If you don't know what's in the can of worms don't try spreading around that everyone else should partake in you opening it.