295 réponses à ce sujet

[GamiSB]

Elton John is dead wrote...
In DA; souls are a fact correct? Remember hearing that destroying the Archdemon would make its soul try to occupy your body along with yours which would destroy both souls? Souls are supernatural and I am sure in DA they remain supernatural as well. 

This has been covered and In Exile summed it up nicely. You can't point at one supernatural aspect and say that all supernatural aspects are thus true. For all we know Souls were already confirmed states of being. Morrigan obviously believed in them and yet she denies the existence of The Maker. While something like a "soul" to us would be earth shattering in a world where things like magic and the fade exist the soul is not that great of proof for the existence of The Maker.

"The archdemon in Dragon Age Orgins is revealed to be Urthemiel, the Tenviter god of beauty. In Awakenings, it is revealed that it became an archdemon as the result of a botched attempt by The Architect to turn it into a Disciple." -- From the Dragon Age Wikia. 

Old Gods doesn't prove the existence of the Maker either. The story of how they came about can just as easily be written off as unenlightened interpretation of when seven of the post powerful dragons went undergrounds for reasons unknown. No one saw The Maker force them down so no one knows if he did it.

Gods are confirmed as existing in DA just like they were in BG as that shows. However, they just don't interfere with mankind any more and thus represent the Deist view for now. I doubt the deities in the game will make themselves known in any of the games of DA. 

"gods" may be confirmed but is The Maker? What people in the DA universe call gods could be no more than very powerful spirits, but this doesn't make them the equivalent of the Chantry's Maker or give evidence of say some Omnipotent being. The Deist view point is very convenient. You never have to prove he exist because to you he just doesn't come down to show himself so it's unreasonable for anyone that want's proof to ask for it.

Like villni said, The Maker does exists but we can't be sure if he IS THE MAKER or just another god or a noble spirit. Further more, how was the Guardian able to see into the past of you and your companions? As far as I know, magic does not make people see into the past in DA. Correct me if I am wrong.

And that's the problem that won't be solved until we see for sure. Without that certainty we can never know if The Maker truly does exists. he may be a powerful spirit, Or he could be completely made up. We also don't know all forms of magic and if something like Justice can invade a body and read it's thoughts it's plausible that there is a spell that could allow for someone else to invade another's mind while alive.

Anyway, I hope DAII has more about The Maker, The Golden City and the old gods and perhaps ever a chance to get a quick look at the Black City from a distance.
 

Agreed. This is an area worth exploring but I fear that BioWare will try and remain PC and not come out with an answer so as not to offend any theist or atheist with what they reveal. For whatever reason people seem to believe that if a Video game differs from their own beliefs that it is some how an attack on those beliefs.

Modifié par GamiSB, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:55 .

[FlintlockJazz]

GamiSB wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Yes, its over whether he exists at all, and what form he may take and whether he could still be classed and deserving of being a god and worshipped.  It is not whether omniscience is possible but whether he has it or not, and I did not mention anything about paradoxes, you're bringing that in yourself but whatever mate, I'm not going to argue it with you since I'm just not interested in arguing about what I meant and what some guy on the interweb is trying to make it out I meant, I just thought it would be an interesting approach to attack the idea from, whatevers.  Bye.

Do you even understand what "how do you define god" mens? Obviously not if you believe I am the one brining up things like paradoxes. You imply that they need discussion when you try and make this about "what is God" rather than "does God exist". If you don't know what's in the can of worms don't try spreading around that everyone else should partake in you opening it.

No.  You're trying to claim that it involves determing if omniscience is possible, I'm not talking about whether it is possible but what attributes are required to be considered a god, whether those attributes are possible or not is not part of the discussion of defining a god but whether a god could exist once the requirements for godhood had been defined.  If you have two people arguing about whether a god exists it would be a good idea that they are arguing about the same sort of thing, if one person is presuming that the god requires omniscience while the other isn't then you are going to have alot of the argument wasted on finding that out.  Elton John has stated that the Maker could be just a really powerful spirit, I am sure that there were at least a few people that had made the mistake that he was arguing for a maker as defined by the Chantry and not the spirit version.

Anyway, as for spreading it around, you're the only one to have responded to my post, so without you it would probably have just been forgotten about, I dunno what the problem you have is but thanks for drawing attention to my post! *Thumbs up*

[AlexXIV]

The most powerful things we know are mages, demons, spirits, dragons, darkspawn (as a hive mind if an archdemon is around) and other darkspawn who possess a soul (like the architect). I hope I didn't miss any. Anyway these are things we could eye-witness. None of these I consider gods. Gods as such I only know from stories but without any sort of evidence of their actual existance. And you can't tell me that none of those powerful beings I mentioned could pose as some sort of god for normal mortal people so they would believe he or she is a god.

Even Andraste. According to general belief and the Chantry the Maker spoke to her, and her alone. But how does she know? Did he show her his divine signet ring? Or crown? Or passport? Or was it his long white beard that revealed him as Maker or his booming voice? I don't know but I personally think it could have been anything. It could have indeed been the Maker, but also some other powerful or at least clever being tricking her. I mean in essence this 'voice in her head' made her to march on the Tevinters. So I would say everyone who had something to gain by this war is a suspect. One who wouldn't have to gain by a war like that would probably be a mighty god like the Maker. I mean, why does a high and mighty god need to send his believers into a war?

So aside from the question if there is a Maker I would also wonder that IF there really is a Maker, is it really the one the Chantry worships and does he even approve of the Chantry as such and the things they do? I think that it makes sense that in a fantasy world like our DA world, the world has actually been created by some very powerful being.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:50 .

[GamiSB]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
No.  You're trying to claim that it involves determing if omniscience is possible, I'm not talking about whether it is possible but what attributes are required to be considered a god, whether those attributes are possible or not is not part of the discussion of defining a god but whether a god could exist once the requirements for godhood had been defined.  If you have two people arguing about whether a god exists it would be a good idea that they are arguing about the same sort of thing, if one person is presuming that the god requires omniscience while the other isn't then you are going to have alot of the argument wasted on finding that out.  Elton John has stated that the Maker could be just a really powerful spirit, I am sure that there were at least a few people that had made the mistake that he was arguing for a maker as defined by the Chantry and not the spirit version.

Anyway, as for spreading it around, you're the only one to have responded to my post, so without you it would probably have just been forgotten about, I dunno what the problem you have is but thanks for drawing attention to my post! *Thumbs up*

If you are going to try and define God you are going to have to explain his attributes and why they qualify as being attributes a god would posses. You are thus going to have to prove that such an attribute is possible otherwise you are arguing something that doesn't exist and a God could not possible have as an attribute. Thus when you define God you are arguing over paradoxes and different omni-traits. You can't discuss one without the other otherwise you are basing your opinion off assumption and not fact.

But again, that discussion is pointless. We already have all this information. The Maker and everything attributed to him is what’s being discussed here. Not some general idea of what makes a God. Your example of two people discussing two different ideas fails because of this. There is no debate of interpretation because everyone here understands that this is over the same being who has a set definition.

Bringing up The Maker as just being a powerful spirit is side stepping the issue of if the Chantry’s view is right and backing down.

Finally I have no problem spreading around people’s post even if I disagree with them. The more people that read it, the more people that learn from it. I have no problem with you, only pointing out that you are bringing up irrelevant details that hold no water in this discussion because the matter of defining “god” is already settled when you are discussing a certain interpretation of a “god”.

[AlexXIV]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

GamiSB wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Yes, its over whether he exists at all, and what form he may take and whether he could still be classed and deserving of being a god and worshipped.  It is not whether omniscience is possible but whether he has it or not, and I did not mention anything about paradoxes, you're bringing that in yourself but whatever mate, I'm not going to argue it with you since I'm just not interested in arguing about what I meant and what some guy on the interweb is trying to make it out I meant, I just thought it would be an interesting approach to attack the idea from, whatevers.  Bye.

Do you even understand what "how do you define god" mens? Obviously not if you believe I am the one brining up things like paradoxes. You imply that they need discussion when you try and make this about "what is God" rather than "does God exist". If you don't know what's in the can of worms don't try spreading around that everyone else should partake in you opening it.

No.  You're trying to claim that it involves determing if omniscience is possible, I'm not talking about whether it is possible but what attributes are required to be considered a god, whether those attributes are possible or not is not part of the discussion of defining a god but whether a god could exist once the requirements for godhood had been defined.  If you have two people arguing about whether a god exists it would be a good idea that they are arguing about the same sort of thing, if one person is presuming that the god requires omniscience while the other isn't then you are going to have alot of the argument wasted on finding that out.  Elton John has stated that the Maker could be just a really powerful spirit, I am sure that there were at least a few people that had made the mistake that he was arguing for a maker as defined by the Chantry and not the spirit version.

Anyway, as for spreading it around, you're the only one to have responded to my post, so without you it would probably have just been forgotten about, I dunno what the problem you have is but thanks for drawing attention to my post! *Thumbs up*

What GamiSB is saying (in short) you cannot make a general definition for god or a god. A christian could tell you what his god is like, a muslim could tell you what his god is like, a jew could tell you what his god is like, a buddhist could tell you what his god or view of the divine is like, etc etc. But you can't say generally that this and this attribute is required for a god to be called god or a god. Same in DA. A chanter can tell you what the Maker is like, a worshipper of the Old Gods can tell you what the Old Gods are like, a Dalish can tell you about the Creators. But there is no way to define what makes them gods. In essense what makes them gods is that people believe in them.

[Eternal Phoenix]

GamiSB wrote...


This has been covered and In Exile summed it up nicely. You can't point at one supernatural aspect and say that all supernatural aspects are thus true. For all we know Souls were already confirmed states of being. Morrigan obviously believed in them and yet she denies the existence of The Maker. While something like a "soul" to us would be earth shattering in a world where things like magic and the fade exist the soul is not that great of proof for the existence of The Maker.

Actually, she believes (knows?) in Old Gods. 

GamiSB wrote...

Old Gods doesn't prove the existence of the Maker either. The story of how they came about can just as easily be written off as unenlightened interpretation of when seven of the post powerful dragons went undergrounds for reasons unknown. No one saw The Maker force them down so no one knows if he did it.

Someone said that The Maker existing has no evidence. With other gods existing in the game, it is very easy that this "The Maker" could exist just like the elven gods. When you pray at the shrine in that tablet quest in the elven ruin. You feel a sense of approval around you. Obviously some god is happy about that otherwise you would get such a feeling.

GamiSB wrote...

"gods" may be confirmed but is The Maker? What people in the DA universe call gods could be no more than very powerful spirits, but this doesn't make them the equivalent of the Chantry's Maker or give evidence of say some Omnipotent being. The Deist view point is very convenient. You never have to prove he exist because to you he just doesn't come down to show himself so it's unreasonable for anyone that want's proof to ask for it.

Maybe but evidence suggests they are gods as our definition in the real world states. Them existing and being trapped underground doesn't confirm what the chantry said about The Maker putting them there? I would still like to know how that Guardian knew about your past. I don't  think he read your mind as Exile (was it him) said. What is this? Divinity II? 

GamiSB wrote...

And that's the problem that won't be solved until we see for sure. Without that certainty we can never know if The Maker truly does exists. he may be a powerful spirit, Or he could be completely made up. We also don't know all forms of magic and if something like Justice can invade a body and read it's thoughts it's plausible that there is a spell that could allow for someone else to invade another's mind while alive.

A demon said The Maker did not exist but demons are evil and will make up lies that disagree with a person's beliefs that they hold dear. I don't think that even demons know if The Maker is real or not since Justice did not know, what makes the demons different? 

GamiSB wrote...
Agreed. This is an area worth exploring but I fear that BioWare will try and remain PC and not come out with an answer so as not to offend any theist or atheist with what they reveal. For whatever reason people seem to believe that if a Video game differs from their own beliefs that it is some how an attack on those beliefs.

Or they (just like all games with great lore) will keep it as a mystery for all to debate over the years I guess. Religion in DA is handled better than how it was in Assassin's Creed. Some called that an atheist game but it actually seems to agree with scientology. I find the message that comes up before you play the game a big lie. I think Tom Cruise is behind Assassin's Creed and this will be revealed in due time! LOL!

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

AlexXIV wrote...

Even Andraste. According to general belief and the Chantry the Maker spoke to her, and her alone. But how does she know? Did he show her his divine signet ring? Or crown? Or passport? Or was it his long white beard that revealed him as Maker or his booming voice?.

He also revealed Himself to what's his face who killed her when she was being burned. She believed he was The Maker because he told her. He didn't appear to her, he just spoke. Obviously he is not a human or mortal. That's for sure. 

[GamiSB]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Actually, she believes (knows?) in Old Gods. 

But does she believe them to be Gods capital G or gods lowercase?

Someone said that The Maker existing has no evidence. With other gods existing in the game, it is very easy that this "The Maker" could exist just like the elven gods. When you pray at the shrine in that tablet quest in the elven ruin. You feel a sense of approval around you. Obviously some god is happy about that otherwise you would get such a feeling.

Evidence of other "gods" doesn't prove that The Maker exist. Only that those other "gods" exist. And even then what qualifies them as Gods, as Flintlock wanted to discuss? You are setting yourself up for a chain of unverifiable discussions that aren't worth discussing with so little information. We don't know enough to say if there is any sort of Divine nature within the DA universe. We can make guesses but we can't prove anything.

Maybe but evidence suggests they are gods as our definition in the real world states. Them existing and being trapped underground doesn't confirm what the chantry said about The Maker putting them there? I would still like to know how that Guardian knew about your past. I don't  think he read your mind as Exile (was it him) said. What is this? Divinity II? 

Not at all. Have you ever read the Iliad or Odyssey? They are both full of supernatural and superstitious events that have reasonable explanations. The one that sticks out in my mind is the interpretation that men were being pulled off their ship by a sea monster when what they were probably experiencing was the rise and fall of the boat on the waves within a storm. The movie 300 also displays this where the messenger tells the tale of how they fought gigantic beast when we see that it was just elephants.

The point is that culture defines a lot of how things are interpreted and without knowledge of what they were seeing or being told something as simple as say "seven dragons taking a nap underground" can be told as "The Maker striking seven gods down into the dirt for eternity". Without seeing the event unfold or having reliable testimony we have no way of knowing what really happened.

Modifié par GamiSB, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:30 .

[AlexXIV]

Elton John is dead wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Even Andraste. According to general belief and the Chantry the Maker spoke to her, and her alone. But how does she know? Did he show her his divine signet ring? Or crown? Or passport? Or was it his long white beard that revealed him as Maker or his booming voice?.

He also revealed Himself to what's his face who killed her when she was being burned. She believed he was The Maker because he told her. He didn't appear to her, he just spoke. Obviously he is not a human or mortal. That's for sure. 

I am sorry but you are concluding that if 2+2 is 4 and 2x2 is also 4 then it must be that + is the same as x, so if 3+3 is 6 then 3x3 must also be 6. The existance of souls doesn't proof the existance of gods. The existance of gods (if there was proof to it) doesn't proof the existance of the Maker. And some woman hearing voices in her head doesn't proof anything. Especially not if it is from a story that is many centuries old. And facts of any sort don't qualify any conclusions that the facts don't even provide. Meaning, if something happened and there is no doubt about it, it doesn't mean that someone who tells you what these facts mean is right about it. Facts are one thing, opinions about these facts are something completely different.

[captain.subtle]

In Exile wrote...

The Guardian is far more interesting. He is clearly not physical, since he can teleport. He is plausibly not an Ash Wraith, though we see Ash Wraiths posessing a human-like form and even conversing with you to a limited degree in the temple. We see that he can read your memories, but we have seen other Fade spirits do this as well (the sloth demon, for example). He is ignorant about developments outside of his domain (i.e. the fate of Tevinter). He ostensibly can be fought and killed.

What we know is that Andraste had her remains brought to Ferelden by her followers who included an Archon who was very obviously a blood mage. They were all quite devout, and to become Ash Wraiths (per the codex) they "gave" themselves to the fire. Could this have been blood magic at work? Was a special ritual used to create the guardian?

I am assuming that by the Archon you mean Valerius. I doubt if he came to the temple. He probably died in Minrathaus. I am quite sure neither did Maferath or Shartan come to the temple and became spirits. The spirits in the temple (other than the Guardian) are not really the spirits of the same living people. They are just constructs. They seem to have one function only: testing the tresspasser.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:18 .

[GamiSB]

captain.subtle wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The Guardian is far more interesting. He is clearly not physical, since he can teleport. He is plausibly not an Ash Wraith, though we see Ash Wraiths posessing a human-like form and even conversing with you to a limited degree in the temple. We see that he can read your memories, but we have seen other Fade spirits do this as well (the sloth demon, for example). He is ignorant about developments outside of his domain (i.e. the fate of Tevinter). He ostensibly can be fought and killed.

What we know is that Andraste had her remains brought to Ferelden by her followers who included an Archon who was very obviously a blood mage. They were all quite devout, and to become Ash Wraiths (per the codex) they "gave" themselves to the fire. Could this have been blood magic at work? Was a special ritual used to create the guardian?

I am assuming that by the Archon you mean Valerius. He doubt if he came to the temple. He probably died in Minrathaus. I am quite sure neither did Maferath or Shartan come to the temple and became spirits. The spirits in the temple (other than the Guardian) are not really the spirits of the same living people. They are just constructs. They seem to have one function only: testing the tresspasser.

Which makes sense since when you account for answering the questions they ask wrong they turn into demons and attack.

[AlexXIV]

captain.subtle wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The Guardian is far more interesting. He is clearly not physical, since he can teleport. He is plausibly not an Ash Wraith, though we see Ash Wraiths posessing a human-like form and even conversing with you to a limited degree in the temple. We see that he can read your memories, but we have seen other Fade spirits do this as well (the sloth demon, for example). He is ignorant about developments outside of his domain (i.e. the fate of Tevinter). He ostensibly can be fought and killed.

What we know is that Andraste had her remains brought to Ferelden by her followers who included an Archon who was very obviously a blood mage. They were all quite devout, and to become Ash Wraiths (per the codex) they "gave" themselves to the fire. Could this have been blood magic at work? Was a special ritual used to create the guardian?

I am assuming that by the Archon you mean Valerius. He doubt if he came to the temple. He probably died in Minrathaus. I am quite sure neither did Maferath or Shartan come to the temple and became spirits. The spirits in the temple (other than the Guardian) are not really the spirits of the same living people. They are just constructs. They seem to have one function only: testing the tresspasser.

There is even sort of proof to this. You are fighting spirits impersonating you and your group. So that proves in my eyes that at least not all spirits really are who they impersonate.

[Eternal Phoenix]

GamiSB wrote...

But does she believe them to be Gods capital G or gods lowercase?

She knew they were gods actually. Flemeth remains immortal by "feeding" on her children but these old gods are truly immortal and have existed for thousands of years. Flemeth said they are gods as well and I'd rather trust that than what you say since you have no sources sorry. 

GamiSB wrote...

Evidence of other "gods" doesn't prove that The Maker exist. Only that those other "gods" exist. And even then what qualifies them as Gods, as Flintlock wanted to discuss? You are setting yourself up for a chain of unverifiable discussions that aren't worth discussing with so little information. We don't know enough to say if there is any sort of Divine nature within the DA universe. We can make guesses but we can't prove anything.

Flemeth said they are gods. Gods in DA mean the same as they do in our world. Read the codex about them. So if she says it, it must be true. She does have more wisdom than anyone else in the game and surely she would know such things. 

GamiSB wrote...

Not at all. Have you ever read the Iliad or Odyssey? They are both full of supernatural and superstitious events that have reasonable explanations. The one that sticks out in my mind is the interpretation that men were being pulled off their ship by a sea monster when what they were probably experiencing was the rise and fall of the boat on the waves within a storm. The movie 300 also displays this where the messenger tells the tale of how they fought gigantic beast when we see that it was just elephants.

The Odyssey never happened, you speak as if it did. The Greek poet Homer invented that tale. They believed in the gods mentioned in that tale but that tale just didn't happen. Regardless, that Guardian knowing your past doesn't have a reasonable explanation. 

AlexXIV wrote...


I am sorry but you are concluding that if 2+2 is 4 and 2x2 is also 4 then it must be that + is the same as x, so if 3+3 is 6 then 3x3 must also be 6. The existance of souls doesn't proof the existance of gods. The existance of gods (if there was proof to it) doesn't proof the existance of the Maker. And some woman hearing voices in her head doesn't proof anything. Especially not if it is from a story that is many centuries old. And facts of any sort don't qualify any conclusions that the facts don't even provide. Meaning, if something happened and there is no doubt about it, it doesn't mean that someone who tells you what these facts mean is right about it. Facts are one thing, opinions about these facts are something completely different.

Why don't the existence of souls prove the existence of gods since they are supernatural and thus was created by something supernatural with the power to make them everlasting. Nature can not form by itself, it has to be created by something that existed beyond time - The Maker. Also that women or whatever her name is, had a vision. 

You say that souls don't prove that gods exist but you forget that the old gods exist. Unless you have valid information and sources from the game that suggest they aren't gods as even the game says, then they are gods and prove that they weren't just "sleeping dragons". 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:02 .

[sandslayer76]

This thread is funny. Debates revolving around whether there is a god or not, Brahman/Allah/Odin/Yahweh/etc., have been raging for quite some time. I see no point as to why people are seeing their own religions (or lack thereof) in the game and defending it in such a similar way as they would in real life about their real religion (or lack thereof).

The way I see it, the Maker's existence has been left ambiguous precisely because it's based off of Christianity. The Christian God's existence is ambiguous. Some are inclined to believe, some aren't. Same as people in Dragon Age. Also as a parallel to real life, more people believe than don't (and for various reasons) in Thedas.

The question of whether the Maker exists or not will likely never be answered by the writers because it allows the characters a choice. To believe or not to believe. This opens many pathways and possibilities when it comes to creating a realistic character. I doubt there will EVER be a situation where you are forced to be religious or forced not to be. Don't bother trying to prove it one way or not, because it will always be ambiguous. If there's some "miraculous" event in the game, some people will view it as divine intervention and others will view it as circumstance.

So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

Elton John is dead wrote... 

The Odyssey never happened, you speak as if it did. The Greek poet Homer invented that tale. They believed in the gods mentioned in that tale but that tale just didn't happen. Regardless, that Guardian knowing your past doesn't have a reasonable explanation. 
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Oh, and just as a footnote, the Odyssey and the Iliad are based off of true events. If you actually researched the Odyssey, you'd notice that certain astronomical phenomena (more precisely, a full moon the night before Penelope's suitors die, a total eclipse at noon when the suitors are sitting down to eat their meal and Odysseus sighting Venus at dawn as he lands in Ithaca) actually pinpoint the apparent date of Odysseus's arriving home to April 16, 1178 BC. Troy VII, which is the archaeological site where the Battle of Troy actually happened, is dated to roughly 1190 BC. 12 years difference, huh? Considering the Iliad and the Odyssey were written 300 years later, this is a pretty damn close approximation. I'm fairly the Odyssey and the Iliad actually happened, but were just embellished with talk of gods, goddesses and monsters for the sake of story.

Just had to call you on that one. Religious debate isn't my thing, but disputing history is.

Modifié par sandslayer76, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:10 .

[sandslayer76]

sandslayer76 wrote...

This thread is funny. Debates revolving around whether there is a god or not, Brahman/Allah/Odin/Yahweh/etc., have been raging for quite some time. I see no point as to why people are seeing their own religions (or lack thereof) in the game and defending it in such a similar way as they would in real life about their real religion (or lack thereof).

The way I see it, the Maker's existence has been left ambiguous precisely because it's based off of Christianity. The Christian God's existence is ambiguous. Some are inclined to believe, some aren't. Same as people in Dragon Age. Also as a parallel to real life, more people believe than don't (and for various reasons) in Thedas.

The question of whether the Maker exists or not will likely never be answered by the writers because it allows the characters a choice. To believe or not to believe. This opens many pathways and possibilities when it comes to creating a realistic character. I doubt there will EVER be a situation where you are forced to be religious or forced not to be. Don't bother trying to prove it one way or not, because it will always be ambiguous. If there's some "miraculous" event in the game, some people will view it as divine intervention and others will view it as circumstance.

So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

Elton John is dead wrote... 

The Odyssey never happened, you speak as if it did. The Greek poet Homer invented that tale. They believed in the gods mentioned in that tale but that tale just didn't happen. Regardless, that Guardian knowing your past doesn't have a reasonable explanation. 
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Oh, and just as a footnote, the Odyssey and the Iliad are based off of true events. If you actually researched the Odyssey, you'd notice that certain astronomical phenomena (more precisely, a full moon the night before Penelope's suitors die, a total eclipse at noon when the suitors are sitting down to eat their meal and Odysseus sighting Venus at dawn as he lands in Ithaca) actually pinpoint the apparent date of Odysseus's arriving home to April 16, 1178 BC. Troy VII, which is the archaeological site where the Battle of Troy actually happened, is dated to roughly 1190 BC. That's a 12 year difference, and Odysseus's journey home took 10 years. Considering the Iliad and the Odyssey were written 300 years later, this is a pretty damn close approximation. I'm fairly the Odyssey and the Iliad actually happened, but were just embellished with talk of gods, goddesses and monsters for the sake of story.

Just had to call you on that one. Religious debate isn't my thing, but disputing history is.

[sandslayer76]

This thread is funny. Debates revolving around whether there is a god or not, Brahman/Allah/Odin/Yahweh/etc., have been raging for quite some time. I see no point as to why people are seeing their own religions (or lack thereof) in the game and defending it in such a similar way as they would in real life about their real religion (or lack thereof).

The way I see it, the Maker's existence has been left ambiguous precisely because it's based off of Christianity. The Christian God's existence is ambiguous. Some are inclined to believe, some aren't. Same as people in Dragon Age. Also as a parallel to real life, more people believe than don't (and for various reasons) in Thedas.

The question of whether the Maker exists or not will likely never be answered by the writers because it allows the characters a choice. To believe or not to believe. This opens many pathways and possibilities when it comes to creating a realistic character. I doubt there will EVER be a situation where you are forced to be religious or forced not to be. Don't bother trying to prove it one way or not, because it will always be ambiguous. If there's some "miraculous" event in the game, some people will view it as divine intervention and others will view it as circumstance.

So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

Elton John is dead wrote... 

The Odyssey never happened, you speak as if it did. The Greek poet Homer invented that tale. They believed in the gods mentioned in that tale but that tale just didn't happen. Regardless, that Guardian knowing your past doesn't have a reasonable explanation. 
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Oh, and just as a footnote, the Odyssey and the Iliad are based off of true events. If you actually researched the Odyssey, you'd notice that certain astronomical phenomena (more precisely, a full moon the night before Penelope's suitors die, a total eclipse at noon when the suitors are sitting down to eat their meal and Odysseus sighting Venus at dawn as he lands in Ithaca) actually pinpoint the apparent date of Odysseus's arriving home to April 16, 1178 BC. Troy VII, which is the archaeological site where the Battle of Troy actually happened, is dated to roughly 1190 BC. That's a 12 year difference, and Odysseus's journey home took 10 years. Considering the Iliad and the Odyssey were written 300 years later, this is a pretty damn close approximation. I'm fairly the Odyssey and the Iliad actually happened, but were just embellished with talk of gods, goddesses and monsters for the sake of story.

Just had to call you on that one. Religious debate isn't my thing, but disputing history is.

[sandslayer76]

Wow. The forum totally tripled posted that statement of mine. =.=

[Xilizhra]

I worship the Old Gods and intend to resurrect the four dead ones, release the imprisoned ones, and... do whatever's necessary with Urthemiel-Morriganbaby.

[joriandrake]

Xilizhra wrote...

I worship the Old Gods and intend to resurrect the four dead ones, release the imprisoned ones, and... do whatever's necessary with Urthemiel-Morriganbaby.

you naughty girl you

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Why don't the existence of souls prove the existence of gods since they are supernatural and thus was created by something supernatural with the power to make them everlasting.

But not understanding them does not necessarily mean they are supernatural. Indeed, since everyone is born with them, they seem to be pretty natural. We just don't quite understand what they are yet.

Nature can not form by itself, it has to be created by something that existed beyond time - The Maker.

That's obviously debatable.

Also that women or whatever her name is, had a vision.

Lots of people have dreams, delusions, and hallucinations.

You say that souls don't prove that gods exist but you forget that the old gods exist. Unless you have valid information and sources from the game that suggest they aren't gods as even the game says, then they are gods and prove that they weren't just "sleeping dragons". 

The beings known as "Old Gods" do indeed seem to exist, but whether they are actually gods or not isn't exactly clear. That's the thing about DA...we know what the Chantry says about things, we know what the common folk say about things, we know what certain individuals think about things...but we are rarely shown the 100% verified truth.

For all we know they could just be very powerful spirits or demons. I'm not saying "they aren't gods," but rather, "they might not be." Again all we have to go on is what other NPCs think. The fact they they are known as gods by the people doesn't make it so.

Modifié par SirOccam, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:59 .

[GamiSB]

Elton John is dead wrote...

She knew they were gods actually. Flemeth remains immortal by "feeding" on her children but these old gods are truly immortal and have existed for thousands of years. Flemeth said they are gods as well and I'd rather trust that than what you say since you have no sources sorry.

Flemeth said they are gods. Gods in DA mean the same as they do in our world. Read the codex about them. So if she says it, it must be true. She does have more wisdom than anyone else in the game and surely she would know such things. 

The Odyssey never happened, you speak as if it did. The Greek poet Homer invented that tale. They believed in the gods mentioned in that tale but that tale just didn't happen. Regardless, that Guardian knowing your past doesn't have a reasonable explanation. 

Again are they gods or Gods? There is a difference (like comparing the New Gods to The Presence in the DC/Vertigo universe. The former are extremely powerful beings while the later is all powerful and all knowing. the former just being beings within the universe the later actually being worthy of the title God and the creator of said universe) But regardless as I pointed out this is where you get into the dicussion of what defines a God. But that discussion for these purposes can't happen without a fundamental understanding of the way in which the Dragon Age world works.

Flemeth never says they are all powerful, she never says they are all knowing. Only that they are very old, very powerful, and are called "old gods". And that is all we should take from it, that those seven beings are old, powerful, and refereed to as "Old gods" anything else is assumption without proof other than the words of unverifiable sources that could just as easily be trying to explain something they have never seen.

I'm not making claims here, only remaining the skeptic because so far their is not enough proof. You can't point to and say "See these seven dragons existed and are underground that means The Maker is real" because all you have is the evidence of seven dragons found underground. How they got there, where they came from, and what they truly are is completely unknown. They could be gods yes, but that doesn't mean there is a Maker.

And on the Odyssey. My point wasn't that it happened. It was that it is a tale that is full of superstition and supernatural events that all have very rational explanations when studied under a rational eye. Which can be just as true about the writings found in the codex. You say seven Old gods were forced into the earth by an all powerful God. I can just as easily say seven powerful dragons went to sleep and are still snoozing.

Modifié par GamiSB, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:37 .

[GamiSB]

sandslayer76 wrote...
So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

I'm not quite sure on that. They could easily create say a dream sequence where our character meets "The Maker" and later wakes up leaving the player to decided if that was indeed him or it was all just a dream

There is also the somewhat cliché hero quest to enter heaven that ends with either the hero killing God or become a servant of him. Which still doesn't straight up answer everything IE if he was God how did a moral kill him or how do we know if he that thing was just a spirit or the real deal?

So there are still ways to touch on the subject and remain ambiguous but hopefully when it comes time to answer the question it is done so in an "epic" manner. Because lets face it the day Go dis proven/dis-proven should it ever arrive will be quiet the event in human history.

[Eternal Phoenix]

sandslayer76 wrote...
So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

Do you want to debate this in a PM? 

GamiSB wrote...

So there are still ways to touch on the subject and remain ambiguous but hopefully when it comes time to answer the question it is done so in an "epic" manner. Because lets face it the day God is proven/dis-proven should it ever arrive will be quiet the event in human history.

Only God coming down to Earth would convince people who doubted that he existed. I say scientific evidence proves his existence, others say that it doesn't. I couldn't care, they can believe what they want. Addressing your "are they gods or Gods" comment, what does it matter? God is spelled with a capital because it is the title of Jehovah, gods don't have capital letters because it means something that lives forever, creates and what not, it is not a title. Humans are spelled like humans. 

Either way, maybe The Maker is real, maybe he is not. But I certainly know that those "old gods" exist though. 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:11 .

[atheelogos]

Dileos wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

"The Maker " Does not exist. At least not the way the chantry describes him/her.

 The maker seems like he was a totally pure being, his golden home turned into the Black City as soon as the tevinter mages set foot in it.

I'm not even sure that story is true. Take everything the chantry says with a grain of salt....