295 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

DMC12 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

"The Maker " Does not exist. At least not the way the chantry describes him/her.

I definitely agree with that. The Chantry is obviously a pre-Luther era version of corrupt Catholicism, right down to the fact that "payment" to the Chantry is seemingly necessary for salvation.

I hope we can take them down in DA2, or at least try to clean up some of this corruption that infects their church.

[sandslayer76]

Elton John is dead wrote...

sandslayer76 wrote...
So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

Do you want to debate this in a PM? 

No. I am just as certain of there being no gods as you are that there is one, I imagine. A debate will prove nothing and change nothing.

[Inverness Moon]

I think it is more likely that Andraste was a powerful mage more than anything else.

[Heimdall]

I don't see enough proof to say he doesn't exist (I don't see the corruption of the Chantry as proof in any way that the Maker doesn't exist, the Chantry came after Andraste and only gained power over time) Though the teachings surrounding the chant had likely changed through time as all things do over a couple centuries, I don't see Chantry corruption as the cause.



In Conclusion: The maker may exist but perhaps not exactly as the Chantry describes

[Syros Mener]

I think, the Maker and the elvish god Fen´Harel are the same person. Fen´Harel sent some "evil gods" in the deep/under earth, on the other hand the Maker prisoned the old gods. you can find more similar facts, when you reading the books, you can find

[ZaroktheImmortal]

sandslayer76 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

sandslayer76 wrote...
So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

Do you want to debate this in a PM? 

No. I am just as certain of there being no gods as you are that there is one, I imagine. A debate will prove nothing and change nothing.

I'm very certain there's no magic men in the sky.

And on the subject of the maker I like Morrigans quotes on the subject

"Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night"

"The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure. "

"Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic. "

" Faith. How quickly those who have no answers invoke that word. "

[Blacklash93]

vilnii wrote...

For those who wish to dig deeper...the truth of the matter is that there are something beyond the world of Thedas caused the spirits of the fade, old gods, darkspawn and mortals to come into being.

Whether the creator is the ultimate supreme being or just high level power is unknown. Where the Maker falls in this cosmos is unknown

Bioware is determined that it remain unknown

We have no idea what created what at this point. They could have all existed together since the beginning of time for all we know. Creation doesn't necessarily have to come from a single sentient, all-knowing being. There are many possibilities.

For the record, I remember hearing that the Old Gods weren't created by the Maker.

[Reaverwind]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't see enough proof to say he doesn't exist (I don't see the corruption of the Chantry as proof in any way that the Maker doesn't exist, the Chantry came after Andraste and only gained power over time)

The Chantry was established by Emperor Drakon, founder of the Orlesian Empire. I can't help but think the first step to reforming the Chantry would be removing the seat of its power from Orlesian influence.

[Eveangaline]

The maker prooobably doesn't exist. But if it does, it kinda doesn't matter. It's got to be the most passive agressive diety ever, no way is it gonna actually interact with the world in any meaningful way, it's probably just gonna shun humanity for what, the fourth time now?

[Saraphial]

Even if the Maker does exist I wouldn't support the chantry. The Maker has really just made himself out to be a huge douche bag with his condemnation of the entire world except for one lady who he thought was pretty and devoted enough to be his wife. Besides, once all the blights are defeated (assuming that the grey wardens always prevail) I'm sure the world will be fine and dandy without the Maker's help anyway.

[Kroaks]

The Maker:

You know if its not as The Chantry describes....then technically there is no Maker, simply an entity that the Chantry made legends about inspired by another powerful entity, even if the DAVerse has a creator god of some kind, if it doesn't jive with the legends its still not "The Maker".

The Guardian:

Could just be a telepathic fade spirit

The Ashes:

Magic spells; lyrium for power and Halla Horns for healing? Andraste herself could have been simply an OGB.

Maybe she was being mind controlled by a blood mage herself, after all you get that ability in DA so why couldn't some other Blood Mage have been mind controlling her into "hearing the maker"? Or a Demon for that matter?

The Ash Wraiths:

The Codex actually says they were supposed to be servants given to andraste, but whether they were really fade spirits was unknown, though the baroness had some ash wraiths didn't she? So unless she was able to conscript them from andrastes service and factor in "Jowans" spirit and the spirits that impersonnate you, that would imply they were just fade spirits.

The Black City:

Could be where the Maker used to be; could be where the elven gods imprisoned the forgotten ones and thats what messed up the Tevinter Mages so much, came into contact with some lovecrafting creature stuck in its prison and brought the taint back to the real world.
Maybe their is no black city, after all it seems to exist in the fade and everything in the fade is formed by man's will isn't it? And once men go away it all just turns back into a "glob" again, if the human race ever totally dies out anyways.

The Old Gods:

Might exist; might simply be old dragons possesed by the blight....are there souls? Maybe or maybe there is just some energy transference of some sort that happens when a dragon dies and creates a darkspawn into another and since it goes for your taint being closest but its "corrupt" it simply malfunctions so to speak and explodes?

Have to say I wasn't impressed by the archdemons if they are supposed to be "crazy" gods they are very weak ones.

Perhaps all the gods are simply spirits formed from the fade? Maybe like the baroness they managed to get power from souls but since they were pulling on entire nations or more at the time they simply magnitudes more powerful?

Or maybe its like the dragon cults, supposedly dragon's are only dolphin level intellect right? Maybe there are powerful entities but nothing even remotely to what the legends or maybe its like a combination of the dwarf paragon's, the halla god or the abominations.....there are alot of options out there.

Spirits:

Could be humans, could be spirits that just mimic what "humans/etc...." all did during their dying moments, the fade spirits do love mimicing the humans after all.  Maybe some are content with just playing moments out forever?

Modifié par Kroaks, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:47 .

[Kroaks]

Acharnae wrote...

In the magi origin it clearly states that magic can't do two things:
Bring people back from the dead (once they have died for some time)
Teleportation (don't know if this includes "telepathy")

Interestingly enough doesn't it specify something about stepping into a mirror and appearing somewhere else?

Even if I'm misremembering that, Morrigan kind of proves rule #2 false in witch hunt by teleporting somewhere else using what I assume anyways was a magic mirror.

I mean they were built by the elves weren't they?  Those various magic teleporting mirrors?

So unless its some kind of ancient supertech and factoring in the game, that seems unlikely than they must have been magic.

which means the mages maynot know nearly as much about magic as they think they do.

Considering that one spirit you fight to get Yusaris from seemed like an amazing concept we know they don't know as much as they used to know in the past definately.

[Hyndrays]

The Maker is a silly excuse to give killers and pedos and all those peoples ways to be....not evil anymore for free >_>



Essentially a get out of hell free card.

It is also re-usable.

[Eternal Phoenix]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

sandslayer76 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

sandslayer76 wrote...
So there really is no point to this. The Maker will never show up in these games. His existence will never be proven, just like his real-life equivalent.

Do you want to debate this in a PM? 

No. I am just as certain of there being no gods as you are that there is one, I imagine. A debate will prove nothing and change nothing.

I'm very certain there's no magic men in the sky.

And on the subject of the maker I like Morrigans quotes on the subject

"Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night"

"The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure. "

"Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic. "

" Faith. How quickly those who have no answers invoke that word. "

Hell, you people annoy me. The only gods that existed in the sky were the Greek gods and Norse gods. The Maker (and his real life counterpart for that matter) doesn't exist in the sky. The Maker created his home in the fade and I think you knew that, so I guess you are trying to take a bash at real life religion in which case - Islam, Judaism and Christianity would all agree that God exists beyond this world and universe. Sky daddy or magic man in the sky is a very annoying childish insult. It does you no good. Morrigan also believes in the old gods, so she is a hypocrite and her quotes shouldn't be taken seriously. 

Hyndrays wrote...

The Maker is a silly excuse to give killers and pedos and all those peoples ways to be....not evil anymore for free >_>

Essentially a get out of hell free card. 
It is also re-usable.

I don't think the Chantry religion is like Catholicism where you can confess your sins to a priest. 

Kroaks wrote...

Acharnae wrote...

In the magi origin it clearly states that magic can't do two things:
Bring people back from the dead (once they have died for some time)
Teleportation (don't know if this includes "telepathy")

Interestingly enough doesn't it specify something about stepping into a mirror and appearing somewhere else?

Even if I'm misremembering that, Morrigan kind of proves rule #2 false in witch hunt by teleporting somewhere else using what I assume anyways was a magic mirror.

I mean they were built by the elves weren't they?  Those various magic teleporting mirrors?

So unless its some kind of ancient supertech and factoring in the game, that seems unlikely than they must have been magic.

which means the mages maynot know nearly as much about magic as they think they do.

Considering that one spirit you fight to get Yusaris from seemed like an amazing concept we know they don't know as much as they used to know in the past definately.

Yes but she never created the magic to teleport herself. For all we know, that mirror could be divine and made from the elf gods. 


On another note, perhaps someone will make a mod one day where we visit The Black City and learn if The Maker is truly The Maker or just a fade spirit since Bioware intend (probably) to keep it unknown to us. 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 26 octobre 2010 - 03:46 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mirrors aren't teleporters. They are dimensional gateways. There is a differnece. Teleporting happens on the same plane of existence, while the mirrors bring you to another dimension.

[Kroaks]

True Vilnii; lots of loose threads, thats actually one of the things I liked about the game, admitably if they never clear "any" of it up that could be annoying but on the flip side as long as the games are fun the DA world stays interesting I could put up with it.



@ EltonJohnisDead



Considering how DA is; I could see it going down as either not clearing anything up via visiting The Black City or making things even more confusing.



I mean; it could always be thrown out that since its in the fade it might not even be the real black city in the first place but just the fades mimicry of it from mortals dreams and thoughts.



@EmperorSahlertz



Eh...that just sounds like teleporting to another dimension to me unless we are sticking with a strictly "star trek" style teleportation. Though I suppose that depends on how effectively they can use the dimension port and how disconnected it is from the main stream reality.

[Kroaks]

Just realized one more loose thread....did the architect simply accidently wake/corrupt the old god/archdemon or did he manage to get the ritual off and what we saw wasn't a "typical archdemon" but a mutated one like the other darkspawn we saw in the awakening?



If so; then its possible that the archdemon in DAO looks/performs little to nothing like the other archdemons look/perform.