295 réponses à ce sujet

[Dileos]

AlexXIV wrote...



And Valhalla!

And Valkaryies!!

What other god has a hot blonde chicks with flying horses that take fallen warriors out drinking?

Modifié par Dileos, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

SirOccam wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

I don't believe cave men existed. I believe there were tribes and some humans lived in caves once. Last time I saw, cave drawings showed people worshipping a god. If you believe cave men did exist then you have to believe that they weren't as intelligent as us, yet they looked around and decided that something created them. This probably won't convince you but you are entitled to believe what you want.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, because it sounds like you're setting me up for a really good insult (which I won't use).

You're saying that if I believe "cave men" existed, then they must have been less intelligent, and yet they believed in a God or gods. As if that's a contradiction.

A lot of early cultures believed in gods. It was a satisfying way to explain the unknown. Why did the sun move across the sky? Well, because Apollo pulled it in his chariot, of course. How can we prevent our fields from drying up and dying? Make more sacrifices to Demeter (or whichever one it was). It's superstition, the same thing responsible for people thinking they have a pair of lucky socks or whatever. I guess the unknown can be scary, and I'm sure such things were comforting. Especially for those early humans, with no scientific knowledge to speak of.

With advances in science, fewer and fewer gods have been necessary to explain things. We found out why the sun seemed to move across the sky. We know to some degree why rivers flood or fields dry up, and we have developed technology to both predict it (weather forecasting) and mitigate it (such as irrigation).

I'm sorry if this offends you, but I believe science still has a long way to go, and God's role will continue to shrink and shrink until maybe, one day, he won't be needed by anyone at all. I do believe that religion is mostly superstition. I don't see much difference in making sacrifices to Demeter to ensure the fertility of your crops and praying to God to heal your tumor. I was brought up Christian, and I always hated the constant "leave it in God's hands" message I was getting. Trouble with finances? Just make sure you're tithing regularly, and then God will give you money! Health problems? Just pray! Oh, what's that? It didn't work? Well you just didn't pray/believe hard enough, or there's some excellent reason out there (which you will never and can never know) for why you should be crippled or ill or whatever. Whatever the reason, it's the same reason babies are born with AIDS. Of course there's a good reason! No need to think about it too much. Obviously there's some reason, because the alternative would be that there's no invisible man in the sky listening to your thoughts, and that's just inconceivable.

No, I am saying that cave men (which you believe existed) drew images of them worshipping a God. You either have two options:

Believe that a god revealed themselves to them and that they weren't really stupid.
Or two: Believe aliens visited.

Science actually agrees with religion nowadays. especially with Islam and that is bad for you I guess. No need to rage though.

You were brought up Christian yet you didn't study Christianity. The Bible even says that Satan rules this world as we can clearly see with all the evil going on in it. And no, God doesn't exist in the sky and why have you changed the debate from The Maker to real life religions? If you wan't an argument about God, PM me and I will be able to explain more. 

If not, continue with The Maker please. 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:11 .

[Dileos]

Elton John is dead wrote...

No, I am saying that cave men (which you believe existed) drew images of them worshipping a God. You either have two options:

Believe that a god revealed themselves to them and that they weren't really stupid.
Or two: Believe aliens visited.

Science actually agrees with religion nowadays. especially with Islam and that is bad for you I guess. No need to rage though.

Or option 3.

They were cavemen.

Modifié par Dileos, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

That had a god or alien visit them which is why they drew images of themselves bowing down to a huge figure. Unless they predicted the future where some doubt religions, they had no reason to lie and draw such pictures. They saw.

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

No, I am saying that cave men (which you believe existed) drew images of them worshipping a God. You either have two options:

Believe that a god revealed themselves to them and that they weren't really stupid.
Or two: Believe aliens visited.

Science actually agrees with religion nowadays. especially with Islam and that is bad for you I guess. No need to rage though.

Again with the rage? I specifically avoided using all-caps words this time. I don't know what else I can do.

Anyway, I have more than those two options.
Three: believe that they believed in a god. (Like you say about Leliana..."I believe she believes in her vision")
Four: think that there is a possibility we are interpreting the drawings wrong.
Five: believe that the drawings may not have been intended to be literal depictions of actual events.

And I'm sure there's more than that.

That's pretty interesting that science now agrees with Islam. That's news to me. I guess faith is no longer necessary.

[Dileos]

Elton John is dead wrote...

That had a god or alien visit them which is why they drew images of themselves bowing down to a huge figure. Unless they predicted the future where some doubt religions, they had no reason to lie and draw such pictures. They saw.

They saw nothing. One caveman created this "magical beard man" to explain the world around him. Other cavemen followed suit.

Cavemen were pretty damn stupid. 

Modifié par Dileos, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:16 .

[AlexXIV]

Elton John is dead wrote...

No, I am saying that cave men (which you believe existed) drew images of them worshipping a God. You either have two options:

Believe that a god revealed themselves to them and that they weren't really stupid.
Or two: Believe aliens visited.

Science actually agrees with religion nowadays. especially with Islam and that is bad for you I guess. No need to rage though.

You realize you are not making a very good case for yourself? Also this thread is gonna get locked soonish.

There is also the option that they were afraid of natural forces (lighting, thunder, storm, etc.) and they though some super human beings must be responsible for it. Which science proved to be utter rubbish.

[pizoxuat]

I liked the way religion was presented in DA:O and I look forward to seeing what they do both with the Chantry and other religions as the series progresses. Nothing is confirmed or denied, it's left to player interpretation. I could just as easily justify playing a believer or a non-believer with any of the origins. My mage was an atheist, my noble a pious believer, my Dalish elf held to her faith and expressed skepticism of the Chantry. It made for good role playing.



I don't need a video game to prop up my personal lack of belief in real life, I want it to present a wide array of interesting options for me to explore.

[Sigma Tauri]

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:49 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

@Dielos and Alex
If it will be locked, it will be because of those that are offended by God existing which is insane. If caveman were stupid Dielos, how could one come up with such an idea?

Argument Over. Can we move on?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Dileos]

Back on topic.



The maker was a caveman who got drunk with Odin.



Atleast thats what the codex says,

[Dileos]

Elton John is dead wrote...

If it will be locked, it will be because of those that are offended by God existing which is insane. If caveman were stupid Dielos, how could one come up with such an idea?

Argument Over. Can we move on?

They prayed to fire and lightning. Or they prayed to a magical beard man in the sky.

Either way...they were pretty damn stupid.

[SirOccam]

I replied before I saw this addition.

Elton John is dead wrote...

You were brought up Christian yet you didn't study Christianity. The Bible even says that Satan rules this world as we can clearly see with all the evil going on in it. And no, God doesn't exist in the sky and why have you changed the debate from The Maker to real life religions? If you wan't an argument about God, PM me and I will be able to explain more. 

If not, continue with The Maker please.

That bolded statement is exactly the same kind of argument as the others. I'll grant you that there is a lot of evil in this world, but again you're assuming that because the Bible attempts an explanation (the Devil is doing it), then it must be true. Could it not simply be that humans are capable of both great good and great evil? Or that bad things happen naturally? Why do we always have to assume there is someone causing everything?

Anyway, I didn't change it to real life religions, really. The principles are the same. You see something you can't explain in real life, so you say "God did it." You see something you can't explain in Dragon Age, so you say "the Maker did it." I'd rather keep an open mind about it, instead of just clinging to an unproven explanation just because it's offered. It's not bad to say "we don't know yet."

[Eternal Phoenix]

I thought we were on topic now again Dielos? If they were stupid, they wouldn't have come up with the concept of God or gods in the first place, the only assumption left is that they saw a god or an alien. Whichever one you believe.

[AlexXIV]

Dileos wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

If it will be locked, it will be because of those that are offended by God existing which is insane. If caveman were stupid Dielos, how could one come up with such an idea?

Argument Over. Can we move on?

They prayed to fire and lightning. Or they prayed to a magical beard man in the sky.

Either way...they were pretty damn stupid.

You know, that's no way to talk about your ancestors. After all thanks to them we are here now, so they can't have been that stupid.

[Eternal Phoenix]

SirOccam wrote...

I replied before I saw this addition.

Elton John is dead wrote...

You were brought up Christian yet you didn't study Christianity. The Bible even says that Satan rules this world as we can clearly see with all the evil going on in it. And no, God doesn't exist in the sky and why have you changed the debate from The Maker to real life religions? If you wan't an argument about God, PM me and I will be able to explain more. 

If not, continue with The Maker please.

That bolded statement is exactly the same kind of argument as the others. I'll grant you that there is a lot of evil in this world, but again you're assuming that because the Bible attempts an explanation (the Devil is doing it), then it must be true. Could it not simply be that humans are capable of both great good and great evil? Or that bad things happen naturally? Why do we always have to assume there is someone causing everything?

Anyway, I didn't change it to real life religions, really. The principles are the same. You see something you can't explain in real life, so you say "God did it." You see something you can't explain in Dragon Age, so you say "the Maker did it." I'd rather keep an open mind about it, instead of just clinging to an unproven explanation just because it's offered. It's not bad to say "we don't know yet."

What I meant was, was that he is ruling it, because many people don't follow God's laws or any laws from any religion including Buddhism. People murder and steal. 

[Dileos]

Elton John is dead wrote...

 If they were stupid, they wouldn't have come up with the concept of God or gods in the first place

I think you mixed you words around a little, let me fix that for you.

If they were stupid they would  have come up with the concept of god.

And according to you they did. So that makes them stupid.

Modifié par Dileos, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:23 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Dileos wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

 If they were stupid, they wouldn't have come up with the concept of God or gods in the first place

I think you mixed you words around a little, let me fix that for you.

If they were   stupid they would have come up with the concept of god.

And according to you they did. So that makes them stupid.

Wrong. You believe they are stupid, so how could they come up with the concept of a god or creator? Answer that.

[SirOccam]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dileos wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

If it will be locked, it will be because of those that are offended by God existing which is insane. If caveman were stupid Dielos, how could one come up with such an idea?

Argument Over. Can we move on?

They prayed to fire and lightning. Or they prayed to a magical beard man in the sky.

Either way...they were pretty damn stupid.

You know, that's no way to talk about your ancestors. After all thanks to them we are here now, so they can't have been that stupid.

You don't need to be a genius to make babies.

[AlexXIV]

Elton John is dead wrote...

I thought we were on topic now again Dielos? If they were stupid, they wouldn't have come up with the concept of God or gods in the first place, the only assumption left is that they saw a god or an alien. Whichever one you believe.

Even intelligent people do stupid things. Especially when they are smoking weird stuff.

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

I replied before I saw this addition.

Elton John is dead wrote...

You were brought up Christian yet you didn't study Christianity. The Bible even says that Satan rules this world as we can clearly see with all the evil going on in it. And no, God doesn't exist in the sky and why have you changed the debate from The Maker to real life religions? If you wan't an argument about God, PM me and I will be able to explain more. 

If not, continue with The Maker please.

That bolded statement is exactly the same kind of argument as the others. I'll grant you that there is a lot of evil in this world, but again you're assuming that because the Bible attempts an explanation (the Devil is doing it), then it must be true. Could it not simply be that humans are capable of both great good and great evil? Or that bad things happen naturally? Why do we always have to assume there is someone causing everything?

Anyway, I didn't change it to real life religions, really. The principles are the same. You see something you can't explain in real life, so you say "God did it." You see something you can't explain in Dragon Age, so you say "the Maker did it." I'd rather keep an open mind about it, instead of just clinging to an unproven explanation just because it's offered. It's not bad to say "we don't know yet."

What I meant was, was that he is ruling it, because many people don't follow God's laws or any laws from any religion including Buddhism. People murder and steal.

Yes they do, but where you're losing me is why that means Satan has to exist. Or God. Why can't people murder and steal and give to the poor and help those in need and love each other without either one of them?

[Dileos]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Wrong. You believe they are stupid, so how could they come up with the concept of a god or creator? Answer that.

....you seriously don't get it?

According to you, they prayed to a god. They prayed to this god and created the concept of god to explain the world around them.

They used a god to explain fire and lightning among other things. They were stupid because the didnt know what fire and lightning were. They needed a magical floating beard man to explain what fire and lightning were.

They were dumber than dirt.

Modifié par Dileos, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:27 .

[AlexXIV]

SirOccam wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dileos wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

If it will be locked, it will be because of those that are offended by God existing which is insane. If caveman were stupid Dielos, how could one come up with such an idea?

Argument Over. Can we move on?

They prayed to fire and lightning. Or they prayed to a magical beard man in the sky.

Either way...they were pretty damn stupid.

You know, that's no way to talk about your ancestors. After all thanks to them we are here now, so they can't have been that stupid.

You don't need to be a genius to make babies.

But they survived agaist animals with claws and fangs while they themselves only had their brains to make up for lack of physical attributes. I am not sayin they were smart as us, but, well it was enough to win the evolutionary race.

[KJandrew]

"To the common man religion is truth, to the the wise it is false, and to the rulers it is useful" ~ Seneca

Elton John is dead wrote...


Also, Odin had one of his eyes plucked out and was hanged on a tree. He was last seen retreating into a cave like a coward according to Wikipedia while Zeus was busy with his boyfriend. 

Odin gave up one if eyes to achieve greater wisdom (don't question it, he's a god he can do what he wants). And where did you get the cave thing from? He died fighting in Ragnarok against a huge wolf (doesn't sound very cowardly to me)

[SirOccam]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Dileos wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

 If they were stupid, they wouldn't have come up with the concept of God or gods in the first place

I think you mixed you words around a little, let me fix that for you.

If they were   stupid they would have come up with the concept of god.

And according to you they did. So that makes them stupid.

Wrong. You believe they are stupid, so how could they come up with the concept of a god or creator? Answer that.

What is so intelligent about coming up with the concept of a God? Again I don't want to offend here, but that's an intellectual cop-out. "I don't understand the world around me, so therefore there is an invisible, powerful person that is responsible for it all."