106 réponses à ce sujet

[Faolin]

I'll have to jump on the overfull "you can't trust the Shadow Broker anyway" bandwagon. But I feel I should answer the spirit of the question and assume that the Shadow Broker is hooked up to some magic anti-lie device, or is somehow incapable of betraying you.



My Shepard would probably have an aneurysm and die on the spot if that choice ever actually happened. His Spectre status and duties to the galaxy demand that he take the best anti-Reaper option (sparing the Shadow Broker). On the other hand, Liara was his LI and his personal ethical stance is paragon.



But since ME doesn't allow you not to make a choice, he'd probably end up killing Liara. Whether I as a player could actually bring myself to click that button is another question entirely.

[Hyper_gateway]

This is all about who do you trust the most?



An outsider who tried to sell your corpse to Collector? A former teammate who fought with you side by side against all odds?



The chance for a renegade Shepard to keep the network rather than Liara is more likely to happen. Shadow Broker isn't in a position where he can negotiate with Shepard.

[Skyblade012]

If it was keeping the network, but losing Liara, there might be a choice. But keeping the Shadow Broker as well? Hell no. Read the stupid dossiers, and you'll learn how the Shadow Broker treats his friends.



He is willing to kill Tali, and everyone who has had contact with her data, despite promises of "protection". He bombs a building just to get rid of one person who might learn where he lives (and you think he'd let you get away?).



Anyone who knows anything about him is a liability to be done away with. He has no morals, and no allegiance save to himself.







And Liara is awesome and worth way more than the information network anyway.

[Gokuthegrate]

Id never kill Liara for the Shadow Broker hes not trustworthy.

If killing him results in his network coming apart then they could start a new one.

[pf17456]

My Shepard would not betray Liara.

[Christmas Ape]

Hmmm.

There's a woman who helped me save the galaxy once before - over the corpse of her own mother, no less - and then threw her entire life into disarray, took on one of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy, and completely subsumed her entirely warranted distrust of a radical pro-human cabal because they told her they could bring me back.

Or a figure who save for being professionally amoral is a complete unknown and whose entire modus operandi relies on never taking a side - and he'd like me to execute the only person to ever come close to discovering his location. Yeah, I'll take it on faith that he's actually going to help me out rather than leave me twisting in the wind after I murder the only loose end that would threaten his complete anonymity.



I get that you're still working the "Paragons are the real monsters, only Faustian deals and callous murders can save the galaxy" angle, Dean, but I think you overreached this time.

[Dean_the_Young]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Hmmm.
There's a woman who helped me save the galaxy once before - over the corpse of her own mother, no less - and then threw her entire life into disarray, took on one of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy, and completely subsumed her entirely warranted distrust of a radical pro-human cabal because they told her they could bring me back.
Or a figure who save for being professionally amoral is a complete unknown and whose entire modus operandi relies on never taking a side - and he'd like me to execute the only person to ever come close to discovering his location. Yeah, I'll take it on faith that he's actually going to help me out rather than leave me twisting in the wind after I murder the only loose end that would threaten his complete anonymity.

I get that you're still working the "Paragons are the real monsters, only Faustian deals and callous murders can save the galaxy" angle, Dean, but I think you overreached this time.

Except you'll notice most renowned renegades have made the same decision, so Fausiant deals and Paragon monsters really isn't the origin. (And, of course, the Reapers don't exactly give anyone the luxury of picking a side: you'll be indoctrinated/killed regardless of whether you help them or not. Shadow Broker might not like picking sides, but if he knows anything about the Reapers it's that they forced him to side regardless.)

What it does come from is a curiosity is how many people were gungho on the quest because it was for Liara, and how many were gungho about the turnout of the DLC because of what it gave them for the future, the Shadow Broker's network.  The DLC simply gave both, but the question was which people weighed more. Most people have gone with Liara as the sympathetic character.

The most interesting thing in this thread is how many people have dismissed the value of Broker's network in and of itself. When the DLC was new, I don't recall most people going on about that: instead it was quite the opposite, about how the Shadow Broker's network was the best thing since sliced bread and that it made not only Cerberus but also the Alliance and the Council largely irrelevant: people actually were cheerfully going on about how LotSB meant that their Shepard could flick off everyone else and work with the Broker (Liara) alone to save the galaxy from the Reapers.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Phobius9]

"Would you have betrayed Liara if the choice had been her or the Shadow Broker's network?"



Yes. It would have been damn hard, but yes, I think I would have. Ashley, on the other hand. I'm not so sure on that one...

[StarcloudSWG]

No. You see, I have faith in Liara being able to rebuild said network. What I would have regretted is the loss of the Shadow Broker's archives. Of course, Liara is the kind of character who loves digging in the past, in organizing information, in archeology of all sorts, including data sifting, so Bioware's approach in making her the new Shadow Broker makes 100% sense to me.

[Asheer_Khan]

here we go again... dean&shand combo strikes again...

[Dean_the_Young]

I thought you were determinedly not talking to me anymore?

[Dean_the_Young]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

No. You see, I have faith in Liara being able to rebuild said network. What I would have regretted is the loss of the Shadow Broker's archives. Of course, Liara is the kind of character who loves digging in the past, in organizing information, in archeology of all sorts, including data sifting, so Bioware's approach in making her the new Shadow Broker makes 100% sense to me.

Is this a faith despite the delimma of the choice?

The largest part of becoming the Broker, after all, was that the Broker's death was secret, and that his network remained secret. This isn't the case now: the Broker's setup this time is that if you kill him, it won't remain secret and the network will be broken up. This can be done many ways, the simplest being to simply openly publish every single agent he has upon his death and send copies to all interested people. You won't be able to rebuild a network who's every agent is arrested and every contact exposed.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Kill Liara? For the SB?



You'd have to be mighty screwed up to go through with that. That is just so morally skewed i can't even......

[Arijharn]

But... what would stop me from killing the SB and installing Liara instead?



If I had to choose between them though, I'd probably have to take the data. No one person can be deemed more important than the possibility of beating the Reapers, not even Cmdr. Shephard.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

While I do think Liara has sold her soul to information brokering... so to speak, I wouldn't sacrifice her for that network.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arijharn wrote...

But... what would stop me from killing the SB and installing Liara instead?

The destruction of the network.

[StarcloudSWG]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Is this a faith despite the dilemna of the choice?

The largest part of becoming the Broker, after all, was that the Broker's death was secret, and that his network remained secret. This isn't the case now: the Broker's setup this time is that if you kill him, it won't remain secret and the network will be broken up. This can be done many ways, the simplest being to simply openly publish every single agent he has upon his death and send copies to all interested people. You won't be able to rebuild a network who's every agent is arrested and every contact exposed.

Oh, so you're proposing that instead of, say, the ship crashing when the Shadow Broker dies, that you deliberately set out to dismantle and expose the largest information gathering network in the galaxy, out of... what. Sheer spite? Complete stupidity? An utter inability to realize how governments and investigative agents like Spectres work?

Because it might makes sense that someone has to be installed as the Shadow Broker right away or the ship goes into "deadman's switch crash mode" but it does not make sense that any version of Shepard, paragon or renegade, would turn down a massive information source like this.

[Dean_the_Young]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Is this a faith despite the dilemna of the choice?

The largest part of becoming the Broker, after all, was that the Broker's death was secret, and that his network remained secret. This isn't the case now: the Broker's setup this time is that if you kill him, it won't remain secret and the network will be broken up. This can be done many ways, the simplest being to simply openly publish every single agent he has upon his death and send copies to all interested people. You won't be able to rebuild a network who's every agent is arrested and every contact exposed.

Oh, so you're proposing that instead of, say, the ship crashing when the Shadow Broker dies, that you deliberately set out to dismantle and expose the largest information gathering network in the galaxy, out of... what. Sheer spite? Complete stupidity? An utter inability to realize how governments and investigative agents like Spectres work?

Not quite. The Shadow Broker is doing it as his bargaining chip.

Once he's dead, what does he care of the consequences? You kill him, his death triggers the dead man's switch which destroys his network, and you're left with the mess to deal with. Chaotic, to be sure: people blackmailed either see the blackmail material lost or have it outed at once, every Shadow Broker agent in the galaxy is revealed and probably therefore executed, and a lot of secrets either lost forever or shown when people would rather they not be.

It's not an action Shepard takes, except in so much that Shepard and/or Liara kill the Broker triggers the consequence. Only way not to see the network torn apart is to not kill the Broker.

Though now that you mention it, seeing the Ship crash afterwards would be kind of cool. Maybe you kill him, ship crashes (after you escape, of course), and all you get is the data EDI was able to steal before it died.

Because it might makes sense that someone has to be installed as the Shadow Broker right away or the ship goes into "deadman's switch crash mode" but it does not make sense that any version of Shepard, paragon or renegade, would turn down a massive information source like this.

Well, I've already been called a monster for posing the delimma in the first place.

[StarcloudSWG]

Ah, I see. I interpreted what I quoted as meaning "After Shepard kills the Shadow Broker, Shepard goes about dismantling the network over Liara's objections."

[Costin_Razvan]

Depends. I am quite certain that the Shadow Broker has most of the information he knows already stored on his computers. So losing the network while keeping the data would be enough for me to still kill the Shadow Broker, as I still have Cerberus.



But if I lost the data as well, then yes I would kill Liara and might gain a potential new ally in the SB ( and no, alliances are not based on trust they are based on mutually beneficial goals: Stopping the Reapers in this case )

[brfritos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lair of the Shadow Broker, sadly enough, didn't have any real delimmas. Even the hostage situation always ends with the hostage alive, if limping, and nothing else comes close. No matter what you do, what you did, how you treated her, Liara would kill the Broker and then take the mantle, becoming your other information-providing ally. No hard question. No delimma. Assured access.

What if it hadn't been? What if the end had been changed to an if-else setup: after some changes in the progression, when confronted the Shadow Broker gave you a delimma: if you kill him, and he makes no assumptions about his chances against him, while you could capture his ship and maybe even keep some of his records, his information net would be given a signal to break up*, leading to it being impossible to put together again. Kill the Broker, get some of his old data, but the Shadow Broker network is gone forever.

But! If you remove the problem of the troublesome Doctor T'soni, he promises to put his network to use for you against the Reapers, and even drops a few tantelizing secrets to perk your interest. Naturally, Liara can not be allowed to leave alive. Kill Liara, get the old information, and also the benfits of the Shadow Broker network in ME3.


This wasn't done, but if it had: which would you do?

*And by break up, gone forever, I mean it. Forever. No one can put it back together after every agent and contact is outed, every piece of blackmail either lost or destroyed.

You have a friend (or a lover interesting) that want revenge against someone that tried to sell your corpse for the enemy.
And she want to keep a base full of information for later use
What dilemma this question has? :happy:

In fact, keeping the base make all the sense in the world, why you will waste a resource of good information about everything in the galaxy?

I understanded what you say, but tell me honest, give me ONE ME1 decision that impacted in ME2 and really affects you?
Kill the Council? Nope.
Kill Wrex? Nope.
Ashley/Kaidan? Nope.
Anderson or Udina in the Council? Nope.
Liara? Nope.
BDTS? Nope (you actually lost your apartment if you think about it LOL).

One similar thing I wanted to see is Garrus loyalty mission, the opportunity to give some meaning to your encouragement for him to be more Paragon/Renegade in ME1 is a wasted one.
If you have encouraged him to be more Paragon Garrus want to arrest Sidonis, but if he's more renegade he want to kill Sidonis.
Instead we have the BS "I'm a saint Shepard" if you use the Paragon option, wich will lead Sidonis to...confess his crimes and ended up in prison.

As for the way you treated her, the same applies to other squad mates, with a few exceptions you can tell them whatever you like and the way you want, is all "fine and dandy" (gosh, I hate this expression LOL).
The decison you are asking us to make is a pretty hard one "betray a friend or lover and gain access to exclusive information" or "keep it loyal, but loose this information".

Well, I can give you mine, "a friend is a friend, even if he is a fan of the wrong team", but the question you are proposing is interesting.

[Dean_the_Young]

Who even knew that the Collectors were the one to kill you at that point? What's the fixation on Shepard's corpse?



How does is recovering Shepard's corpse and selling it hurting Shepard? Lazarus wasn't even a known possibility until is suceded. Realistically, how does it hurt anyone?

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Who even knew that the Collectors were the one to kill you at that point? What's the fixation on Shepard's corpse?

How does is recovering Shepard's corpse and selling it hurting Shepard? Lazarus wasn't even a known possibility until is suceded. Realistically, how does it hurt anyone?

Personally, I have no grudge against the Yahg Broker. Killing him is just good business.

[brfritos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Who even knew that the Collectors were the one to kill you at that point? What's the fixation on Shepard's corpse?

How does is recovering Shepard's corpse and selling it hurting Shepard? Lazarus wasn't even a known possibility until is suceded. Realistically, how does it hurt anyone?

WoW, keep your weapons down my friend, I'm working with the available information we have.
And the information we have is this, the Collectors want Shepard's body.

Of course they never tell us WHAT FOR, but regardless, this is the information supplied.

I think we will enter in the "lame story ME2 has" department, then.