155 réponses à ce sujet

[I ReVaNChisT I]

i think the TC is grasping at straws, there are acually several things that were in NWN2 that i would have liked to have seen in DAO, setting and story are as different as can be for a fantasy setting, game play is very different(some ways good and others not so) characters IMO are nothing alike(elanee/morrigan? lol), and how is ostagar anything like west harbor???



yes there are some minor similarities but NWN2's story is more like LOTR's than DAO

[Mikka-chan]

The point when someone made a comparison between the Greycoaks and the Grey Wardens was when I started giggling. You know that the Greycloaks are Forgotten Realms canon, right? Bounce back over to Baldur's Gate- Xan of Evereska, the elven enchanter with a moonblade, was a Greycloak.



Many of the characters and plot play off of archetypes. You want to know who Sten is like? He's like Canderous Ordo. Wrex. Garrus. The whole Mandalorian, Krogian, and Turian races. Go back further, and grab Dak'kon from Planescape: Torment, too. Sten is the Proud Warrior Race Guy who's life revolves around battle but can be strangely philosophical about it. He is out of his depths in a new situation where he's separated from the rest of his people, and he's tied to the PC with a debt. He does not act like a human and his code of morality (important, and which he follows, showing that he and his people have honor despite seeming 'horrible') is strange to the PC, but there are various Not So Different moments throughout the game where he and the character may find themselves thinking the same. In the end, he will go back to save his people/live with his people/yadda-ye, but he will speak with the PC before to thank for the lessons learned and the chance given, although given his somewhat staid personality it will come out a bit awkward.



Seriously, who am I talking about? I'm talking about the Proud Warrior Race Guy, that's who- met him before (Daelan from the NWN OC also may fit in to this)? Honestly, if you want to compare companions to companions, I'd take the Masks of the Betrayer expansion. Zev is totally based off of Gann, after all!- no, Haer'Dalis, we're not talking about you, get back in the box. Theater. Whatever. (At least Zev doesn't have blue hair? Hm.) You might be able to get a good Safiya/Wynne argument going, but as Saf is meant to be the Maiden, does that align her with Morrigan? Heck, I could see an Okku/Sten thing. Or should it be Okku/Dog. Hm. No,Okku/Sten. Proud Warrior Race Guy strikes again!



No character is unique, and no story is either- both NWN2 and Dragon's Age (along with Baldur's Gate, and quite a few other tales that Bioware, Black Isle, and Obsidian (and Trok before they went out of business, if they count) produced) are basic Hero's Journey's, and at times fairly predictable for that. There are definitely comparisons between NWN2's OC and DA- but you can also compare NWN2's OC to other games, ranging from the original NWN to Arcanum to Mass Effect to PS:T to freakin Lionheart or whatever that game was- and you'll find similarities.



As for who's story was the best- that's for each player to judge, isn't it? Personally, my money's on Torment. But I enjoyed NWN2 and DA, as well.

[I ReVaNChisT I]

Mordaedil wrote...

This thread is full of SPOILERS.

Thanks guys. I'm not even done with my first playthrough

I have wooooork!

it says up the top this board is the campaign forum
(spoilers) if you didnt want spolers you shoudl be elseware

[Lotion Soronarr]

Played NWN2 twice. Tehre are SOME similarities, but in most cases you're stretching things.Morrigan and Elanee are nothing alike, Ammon Jerro aned Loghain are very different (Ammon Jerro doesn't work acctivly against you, you jsut cross paths. He also is working against hte big bad, while loghain is wasting time f**** up his lands).

In DAO you put Loghain on trail, in NWN2 you are put on trial, and by a lackey no less.

Etc, etc..



You are really stretching things

[Murdario]

lol @ this group denial!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Elithranduil wrote...

I'm not saying they are EXACTLY THE SAME. I'm saying they pretty much took the central concepts of Neverwinter Nights 2 and repackaged it in the Bioware way. The character comparisons are meant to highlight similarities in how they all interact with the player and feature in the story.

It is extremely apparent that Bioware took heavy heavy inspiration from NWN2. It doesn't mean they made carbon copies - that would be too obvious. But they clearly took the central plot, themes, character motiffs etc. and then used that as a template for their new IP. Of course the characters are not going to be the same in every conceivable way. You are just narrowing down your argument to an overly literal interpretation so you can throw it back in a straw man manner like there is no similarities at all.

Congratulations. You just win the Internet awar for the most useless ond abvious statment ever. Things resemble other things.
Wow..a a heroic story with a party of advanturers has some similarities with another story with a party of adventurers! SHOCKING!

Get a grip man. You're reading way, WAAAY too much into this.

NWN2 was a great game. I personalyl loved it. But it is a different game from DA:O. DA:O is not a ripoff of NWN2. Period.

[Lotion Soronarr]

nisallik wrote...
Elanee is a creepy, clingy stalker.  Eww.... so No.

No. I keep wondering if people even bother to talk to the character and read...
She's not a creepy stalker.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Elithranduil wrote...

Arcane Fury wrote...

Yes, I couldn't help but notice the similarities between the characters and story myself. But why should you be complaining? Everyone obviously bought into their formula, and its clear it works.

I'm not complaining. Dragon Age is awesome. I just want people to know about NWN2 and the hard work Obsidian Entertainment put into it.

AHA! So you are a fanboy. the plot thickens!

[Murdario]

its the same damn story. you'll go through exactly the same story elements in both games but in slightly different order. and in nwn2 you do bunch of other stuff in between.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GAh! Stories have an opening, resolutio nand climax! *GASP!*

Those are the same story elements NWN2! What a ripoff! HORRIRFYING!!!!

[Rhys Cordelle]

NWN2 was awful. I adored NWN and was so upset with NWN2. I tried so hard to like it but I simply couldn't.

NWN2 = Awful voice acting, awful characters, awful plot, awful gameplay, and god awful ending

I keep saying that Dragon Age is the game that NWN2 SHOULD have been.

[Murdario]

gah! someone critiqued bioware! shields up and fire photon torpedoes! the infidels must be destroyed! jerro has a beard and loghain doesnt! they are completely dissimilar!

[Malkut]

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Trope

^ An explaination of the concept of tropes.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools

^ Why tropes are not bad.

Everyone ****ed and moaned about how unoriginal NWN2 was, too.

/thread

[Apophis2412]

There are actually more similarities between DAO and other Bioware titles than between DAO and NWN2.
For example:

*Player is part of an elite organisation. (Bhaalspawn, Jedi, Spirit Monks, Grey Wardens, Spectres)
*The main plot is about gathering 4-5 things to defeat the big bad ( Star Maps, Dragon Amulet Pieces, Allies to defeat the Blight, clues to finding the conduit, companions).

And of course most of the companions from their previous titles are the same:

Proud Warrior Race Guy: Sten, Canderous Ordo, Wrex,
Kill all that lives!/Figthing is fun!: Shale, HK-47, Black Whirlwind.
Female love interest A (Nice guy with the tortured past): Anomen, Kaiden Alenko, Carth Onasi.
Female love interest B (lovable rogue): Sky, Alistair.
Male love interest A (innocent, nice, good two-shoes and sometimes clingy): Aerie, Liara,  Leliana, Dawn Star.
Male love interest B: Tough, rebellious, bad/evil and sometimes sexy): Viconia, Silk Fox/ Lian, Ashley Williams, Subject Zero, Morrigan.

[Apophis2412]

Further thoughts:



The only similiroty between Ammen Jerro and Loghain is that they are both deluded. Both are thinking that their way os the only way to stop the big bad. they are also both actively hunting after the main character, without realisng that the player is the only one who can stop the Blight/ King of Shadows.

[nisallik]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

nisallik wrote...
Elanee is a creepy, clingy stalker.  Eww.... so No.

No. I keep wondering if people even bother to talk to the character and read...
She's not a creepy stalker.

Did we not play the same game?  She was ordered to watch the PC at the village by the circle for her final test.  Drama happened, so she could not complete her final test... but what did she do?  Spent several months watching the PC anyways.

If she isn't a creepy stalker, then is she a psycho stalker? ;p

[FedericoV]

Elithranduil wrote...

Nazo wrote...

Mm, I dunno. I see the similarities too, but DA was in development for a loooong time. I am guessing they had most of the plot elements in place by the time NWN2 came out. I think it just so happens that 'Go forth and gather an army' is a pretty useful trope for a non-linear game.

I suppose so. I just can't shake the feeling that Bioware completely lifted concepts from Obsidian. Perhaps it was the other way around.

Curious to hear what others think.

If you look way back you'll see that even NWN2 has derived the elements of the plot from other games/book/film.

You can further and you'll arrive to epic tales like Gilgamesh and the Odissey if you're inclined for research .

I'm an avid reader of the fantasy genre and I can assure you that there is not more room for originality in terms of plot. Tolkien, Martin, Erikson, Zelazny, Rowling, Lucas (I mean Star Wars) etc. etc. etc.: they all tell the same old story of the hero of obscure fame that's destined (willing or not) to destroy an ancient evil against all odds with the same old twists.  It's the archetype story of the hero an it works. Other kind of story in the fantasy genre are niche. That's talking about the general plot-line but I could go in detail for each of the elements you addressed but I won't bore you. In thatsense, originality is highly overrated.

So, if they all tell the same old story, what makes the difference? If we talk about the story and not about the gameplay, the difference is made by the quality of writing, storytelling and world building. Well, there is no comparison in those elements between NWN2 and DA:O. DA:O wins hands down. There is even no need to take those element in consideration: the final product speaks for itself. NWN2 OC was uninspired to say the least and ridiculous in certain passages. And if we take in consideration the specific element of the media (ie interactivity) DA:O managed to let you feel more free and important than NWN2 (even if at the end it's all smoke and mirrors... you know). Moreover, NWN2 allow you multiple choices but at the end there is a fixed, rushed and disappointing final (since your choices doesn't matter).  

A quick  example of the differences in terms of story: make a confrontation between Morrigain and the Fire Sorceror chick of NWN2. The second one was ridiculous. I was happy to get rid of her at the end of the game. Morrigain was a great charachter, worth of the best media in the fantasy genre for his background alone.

That's why DA:O is higly praised while NWN2 wasn't received so well. Then, if we talk about about the MoTB... well, it's a different kind of tale. MoTB storytelling/writing/world building was great and it was so good that it seems not to be settled in the Forgotten Realms (imho, the most stupid fantasy setting I've ever read about). But in MoTB Obsidian tried deliberately something new, free and different trying to make a good game despite the limits of D&D setting/system and not because of it :happy:.

Well, sorry for the wall of text.

Modifié par FedericoV, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:36 .

[nisallik]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Further thoughts:

The only similiroty between Ammen Jerro and Loghain is that they are both deluded. Both are thinking that their way os the only way to stop the big bad. they are also both actively hunting after the main character, without realisng that the player is the only one who can stop the Blight/ King of Shadows.

Jerro never hunted the main character.

[Malkut]

Yeah, Jerro wasn't an antagonist. He was more like a guy who's house you broke in to.

[Dreogan]

One's an apple, the other's an orange.



Holy ****, they're both fruits!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

NWN2 was awful. I adored NWN and was so upset with NWN2. I tried so hard to like it but I simply couldn't.

NWN2 = Awful voice acting, awful characters, awful plot, awful gameplay, and god awful ending

I keep saying that Dragon Age is the game that NWN2 SHOULD have been.

What is it with the extremists around here? Or do you like to debate so much you'll bash at anything the other guy likes?

Really ,NWN2 is a good game. It had it's moments and it has some great characters.