155 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Further thoughts:

The only similiroty between Ammen Jerro and Loghain is that they are both deluded. Both are thinking that their way os the only way to stop the big bad. they are also both actively hunting after the main character, without realisng that the player is the only one who can stop the Blight/ King of Shadows.

Jerro is not hunting you. You are hunting him. He only crosses your path once and that is by accident.

[Murdario]

your home gets attacked and your daddy makes you leave - check



you walk in to a fortress that is under attack from an ancient evil that is building up in some sort of swamp region - check



you walk in to a small town thats kind of feeling the effects of the evil build up - check



you walk in to a bigger town and get accused for something you didnt do - check



a noble chap takes you under his wing and helps you defend against the accusations - check



you gather proof so that you can defend yourself in some sort of royal court hearing- check



you have the said hearing and get declared the last best hope for humanity againt the ancient evil that is rising from the swampy regions in the south - check



you gather allies from few different factions to help you fight against the evil by solving their problems - check



theres a sort of evil dude who also wants to fight the ancient evil but is also hindering your progress and doing nasty stuff while hes at it - check



the same evil dude realizes that you are the most awesomest dude and far more likely to beat the ancient evil rising from the southern marshy regions than him after you whoop his ass. all his nasty deeds are forgiven and he becomes your ally - check





the tiny town that was feeling the evil build up gets wiped away by the evil coming from the swampy regions - check



the big end fight against the evil where you can call in the the troops you have gathered - check



i dont know what games you people have played, but pretty much everything that i did or happened to me in dao also went down in nwn2.

[DragonRageGT]

I agree with OP, having played NWN 2 so many times... but then ... so what? they're both great games and it didn't take 1 year for devs to get it right with patches after a massive bugged release. Plus, NWN2 has mplayer! (is it working yet? I gave up waiting after 1 year)



Similarities apart, DA is pretty different as to gameplay. And it is not so bad like it would be in a movie, such as Deep Impact and Armmagedon.

[Dunhart]

NWN 2 had some great points and some truly awful points. This was back when Obsidian's influence system sucked hard, where you could realistically only please like two party members to get their influence to 100 while the rest would be at "meh" for most of the game. Realistic? Maybe. Annoying? Hell yes.

Shandra was my favorite NPC by virtue of being the only one who doesn't go against you all the time. Too bad she had to die.

Also, while the NPC betrayal system near the end was dramatic (and frustrating because of the influence system), there were some truly atrocious design flaws. The biggest being Qara/Sand dilemma, where one would ALWAYS betray you for the most arbitrary reason for having less influence points. It didn't matter if one was at 100 and the other at 99, the latter would always side with the ultimate evil because the other would not.

On the plus side, the final battle having all of your characters in it was awesome. And I agree that the Luskan trial was far better courtroom sequence than Landsmeet. It was where conversational skills trully mattered. And since you couldn't kill that annoying biatch, Torio, owning her at courtroom dramatics was just as rewarding.

NWN 2 had some truly hilarious dialogue, too.

[if the player is male]Baalbisan: But it looks so female. How can I be certain?Player: I suppose I could show you. Stand back - I'll need a lot of room.Qara: ...Baalbisan: It offers to reveal its parts, but my vision is not what it was. I doubt I could make out something so diminutive.Neeshka: Well, from what I have heard, it is not that small at all.Elanee: What did you say?Neeshka: [quietly] Hey, I don't know, I'm just trying to help.

Anyway, DA:O follows the same general storyline pacing as NWN 2 in some parts, yes, but I would hardly be throwing accusations of plagarism over it.

Modifié par Dunhart, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Murdario wrote...

*SNIP*

Dont' you relsir how generic some of those statements are?

"you walk into a town and it feels the effect of X".. well DUH! You want a game without towns? Without feeling the influce of whatever is happenign (civil war, big force of evil, plague or something)?


How about this:
- You gatehr better items and build up your strength befroe facing the ig bad - check

WOW. DA:O copies every single fantasy ever made!

Really, most of this arguments are as usefull as a condom machine in Vatican.
The rest are flat out wrong.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:57 .

[Fishy]

Dragon age have more similarities with LOTR...

[BanditGR]

Yes Dragon Age has similarities to NWN and as has already been stated, we can take this argument even further and trace it back to the first RPG ever made. It is a fantasy world after all. The real question is, who the hell cares. It is the differences that define us (or anything for that matter) and when it comes down to it, Dragon Age possesses its own unique world and storyline, its own characters and conflicts. Sure it has elves and dwarves and humans, but really why is that so strange, why does it have to be ENTIRELY different than an already familiar setting, in order to be successful or entertaining ? People are oversimplifying certain situations, in order to see what they want to see. Just get over it and enjoy the game for what it is, not how similar it "feels" to previously released game X.

[ReubenLiew]

Isn't there like a chart about all the Bioware games ever released?



http://gza.gameriot...._1257581825.png



This one

[Vormaerin]

The trial was one of the few things that NWN2 did well. Well, the building up your fortress and troops stuff was cool, until you realized that it was completely and utterly irrelevant and you should have spent that money on magic items for your toons.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Bishop ( > x infinite) sten

[Bluemax151]

The similarities are glaringly obvious and really shouldn't have to be stated or argued. Nothing is EXACTLY the same but similar enough that there must be some kind of a generic formula being followed :-P The most noticeable difference IMO (besides technical issues, voice acting, etc) is that with Dragon Age they've tried really hard to make everything less black and white/more grey. Even to some degree made outcomes less obvious.



Morrigan visually also appears to be a pretty big Lulu (FFX) ripoff. Besides Morrigan's hostility their demeanor is even pretty similar.

[El Codge]

It hasn't hurt the Zelda games at all (Plot: rescue Zelda, kill Ganon).



As long as every component of the game is improved (systems, graphics, writing etc), then it doesn't really matter if tropes, macguffins or other plot points are reused.



IMO.

[Silvanceknight]

I don't understand this argument. Didn't Bioware make the NWN games as well? I know they developed the first NWN games as well as the Baldur's Gate games, but didn't they have something to do with NWN2 as well? Could've sworn Obsidian used their Aurora engine on that game.

Modifié par Silvanceknight, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:34 .

[hawat333]

I strongly suggest to play both games again and pay a bit more attention to these characters.

Anyways, true. Both games has swords for example. And sidekicks. And magic. And a powerful, evil enemy in the end. And stuff like that, but that happens to be a pretty strong characteristic of the fantasy crpg genre.

[MS3825]

Skipping half the OP and all replies to post first...

I wondered if DA:O started out as NWN2 as well. The look and feel of quite a few things, people and places are very similar. Then again robes and armor don't vary much and neither do dwarves, elves, and humans.



I won't touch the subject of the story since many many stories are quite similar across eras, nations, and continents that didn't have contact with each other when the myths were created.

[Thomas9321]

Elithranduil wrote...

Is it just me or is Dragon Age essentially a glorified and highly polished version of the Neverwinter Nights 2 Obsidian Entertainment gave us?

Now I don't work at,  nor am I affiliated with Obsidian Ent. - but I would be pretty annoyed that Bioware have essentially taken their main narrative and party member templates and repackaged it and marketed it extensively to enjoy overwhelming success they did not truly deserve.

The NWN2 story follows the journey of an orphaned adventurer [see Origin stories] gathering a combined army of Dwarves, Lizardmen and Humans [see Grey Warden treaty signatures] to defeat the threat posed by an ancient, evil spirit known as the King of Shadows. [see Archdemon and the Blight]

The first part of the game is set in the small Sword Coast village of
West Harbor [Ostagar], which was the site of a battle between an evil host led by an
entity known as the "King of Shadows" and the warriors aligned with
Neverwinter [see Battle of Ostagar] which ends in disaster. You are henceforth one of the sole survivors [see last of the Grey Wardens].

A warlock named Ammon Jerro seemingly appears to be the main threat and appears to be actively working against you. After tracking down Ammon Jerro, it is revealed he is actually after the destruction of the King of Shadows and after inadvertently slaying
his descendant Shandra [similarities to King Calian?] he repents and joins the party [see Loghain].

United with the other races and nations - the King of Shadows army is repelled - with the aid of Neverwinter's historic enemy Luskan [see paranoia over Orlais] and the group finally confronts the Archdemon in his citadel. I mean King of Shadows...

Party members include!
Bevil Starling / Alistair

Bevil is one of the PC's friends in West Harbor and is available as
a henchman in the first Act during the excursion into the Swamps. He
later joins the PC at Crossroad Keep as a sergeant.

Bishop / Sten

Bishop is merciless, backstabbing, homicidal and mistrustful. All of
these characteristics stem from his troubled childhood in Luskan, where
he burned an entire village down in an act of defiance and impulse [Sten's sword and the slaying of the children]. Although irreparably destructive, Bishop has a certain
corsair mercenary likeness about him. He was initially planned as a
romance option for female PCs but eventually this was deleted.

Construct / Shale

If the PC decided to go back and fetch this heap of scrap metal and
have Grobnar fix it up, the construct becomes a strong fighter henchman
in the last two Acts of the game.

Khelgar Ironfist / Oghren

Is a dwarven fighter and the first major companion the player encounters. He is a fighting fanatic who also has a storyline where he must reconcile with his clan after they
resent him for his putting his love of fighting before the clan. [Branka anyone?] Great as he may be in a fight, Khelgar's heart is pure gold and his
oddball quest to dedicate himself to the life of a monk hints at deeper
things going on inside that thick, bearded skull.

Elanee / Morrigan

Elanee is a wood elf druid - a witch of the wilds - who joins the PC's party upon leaving Fort
Locke. She is also the only available romance option for male PCs.

Neeshka / Leliana

Is a tiefling rogue who is one of the companions available in the
game. She is the second one to be encountered where she has to be
rescued from a group of soldiers who have attacked her due to her
tiefling [Orlais] heritage. When in Neverwinter she competes against a former
associate [Marjolaine anyone?] who hates her for stealing his money.

Sand / Wynne

Sand is a wise, but cynical eladrin moon elf wizard who owns a magic shop down by the docks in Neverwinter.
He is a knowledge-seeker and is very interested in finding ancient
relics and artifacts he can study and learn more from. He is a powerful
and well-trained wizard, which causes him to often butt heads with
Qara, who insults all wizards who have to study and read books in order
to learn magic. Provides advice and counsel to the player character.

Ammon Jerro / Loghain

Ammon found out about
the Illefarn guardian, and what it had become, and what it was going to
do to all of Abeir-Toril [Ferelden]. He cut all ties with his family and friends,
immersed himself in years of study and training in order to better face
the Illefarn construct gone awry. In completely losing himself to
zealous training and searching for powerful allies, items, and
henchmen, mainly of the demonic sort, he loses bits and pieces of his
humanity and soul [Loghain again...], until he becomes a single-minded weapon favouring
isolation, ruthlesness and efficiency. Ammon Jerro will do what he
thinks needs be done in the most expedient way possible, without regard
to loss of life or other (in his mind) miscelania. He is there to
destroy the King of Shadows [archdemon] and protect Neverwinter at any cost [Ferelden], everything else fades.

Okay, I'm going to have to disagree with  almost everything you just said. To begin with, Ostagar has no similarities with West Harbour, I just don't see how an ancient fortress equates to a tiny, rural hamlet. The closest to West Harbour would be the origin stories, and only because they both occur at the beginning. Another problem - the similarities between Cailan and Shandra you speak of are almost non existent, they only similarity is that they both have long blonde hair. Whilst I see the similarities in the attaining of allies within the two games, how they are presented is totally, totally different. So, I disagree, the only similarities of the two stories are how you prepare to combat the major threat of each game. Also, your argument fails to mention all stuff from NWN 2 that has no similarities with Dragon Age  such as the Githyanki & their silver swords.

You made a point about similarities with the characters, I'm afraid I'm going to have dismiss this as rubbish. Firstly, your Alistair/Bevil comparison is wrong in as much they don't have a single similarity, not in personality or role in the story.  Again, in terms of character and background Sten is nothing like bishop. Shale and Construct are nothing alike - Shale has a personality and a completely different background story. Oghren and Khelgar do have SOME similarities, but they are fundamentally differed (Khelgar being merely a walking cliche). Morrigan and Elanee is just a no, Elanee is a good druid and Morrigan a selfish mage, they could not possibly be more different in terms of personality, they both used to live in a wood, that is the ONLY similarity. Neeshka and Leliana both pick locks and have troubled pasts, but again that a purely superficial similarity. You haven't even provided an example of a similarity between Wynne and Sand. The only comparison with any weight is Loghain/Ammon Jerro but only in that they both pursue extreme methods for the sake of a goal they feel is noble.

So, to conclude, whilst your argument is well reasoned and intelligent I believe you to be incorrect and your similarities to be superficial.

[interesting03]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Bishop ( > x infinite) sten

Ah....You almost had me there, but we all know that bishop is a useless tosspot in comparison to Sten.

[Malificis]

stopped reading with serious viewpoint and started laughing at "Bishop / sten" and felt sick at "elanee/ Morrigan"

Modifié par Malificis, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[RunCDFirst]

Malificis wrote...

stopped reading with serious viewpoint and started laughing at "Bishop / sten" and felt sick at "elanee/ Morrigan"

My favourites are Elanee/Morrigan and Neeshka/Leliana.

Because druids and witches of the wild are basically carbon copies. Wait! We forgot the crazy hermit in the Brecilian woods! He's like a druid/witch of the wilds too! BioWare, for shame!

Also, shared characteristics of Neeshka and Leliana is that Neeshka is the second companion you pick up even though Leliana is the fourth/fifth depending whether you get Sten before stopping by the tavern. Or maybe it's because they're both thieves? Though Leliana is more a D&D bard...

[da_gotcha]

except that the movement in NWN2 is absolutely terrible. You cannot move intuitively, the camera jumps all over the screen, a small mouse movement will see the world spinning around the character. DA is far superior in that aspect.

[FalloutBoy]

Obsidian stole the idea for the King of Shadows from the evil Santa robot from Futurama.

[Popemaster123]

uh bioware and obsidian have worked togehter on several games before sharing ideas and just generally stealing them from each other

[bjdbwea]

So you discovered that the amount of different plots and characters that writers can think up for games such as this are limited. Congratulations.

[Kozuka78]

Murdario wrote...



your home gets attacked and your daddy makes you leave - check



you walk in to a fortress that is under attack from an ancient evil that is building up in some sort of swamp region - check



you walk in to a small town thats kind of feeling the effects of the evil build up - check



you walk in to a bigger town and get accused for something you didnt do - check



a noble chap takes you under his wing and helps you defend against the accusations - check



you gather proof so that you can defend yourself in some sort of royal court hearing- check



you have the said hearing and get declared the last best hope for humanity againt the ancient evil that is rising from the swampy regions in the south - check



you gather allies from few different factions to help you fight against the evil by solving their problems - check



theres a sort of evil dude who also wants to fight the ancient evil but is also hindering your progress and doing nasty stuff while hes at it - check



the same evil dude realizes that you are the most awesomest dude and far more likely to beat the ancient evil rising from the southern marshy regions than him after you whoop his ass. all his nasty deeds are forgiven and he becomes your ally - check





the tiny town that was feeling the evil build up gets wiped away by the evil coming from the swampy regions - check



the big end fight against the evil where you can call in the the troops you have gathered - check



i dont know what games you people have played, but pretty much everything that i did or happened to me in dao also went down in nwn2.

this > thread really

[Zachriel]

If you really want an example of  blatant story copying, compare NWN1 to KOTOR, or as I call it Neverwinter Nights in Space.
In Neverwinter Nights you:
- Must search for 4 tablets that will lead you to the source of an ancient evil that is attacking the land
- Are betrayed by the female lead of the story, who joins the enemy
- Discover that the source of the evil you're facing is an artifact built by an ancient "creator" race, which once ruled the entire world.

In KOTOR you:
- Must search for the 4 pieces of the Star Map which will you to the source of the great evil that is attacking the Republic
- Are betrayed by the female lead of the story, who joins your enemy
- Discover the source of the evil you're facing is an artifact built by aan ancient and long forgotten "creator" race, which once ruled the entire galaxy.
In my opinion, the similarites between NWN1 and KOTOR are so obvious it's ridiculous.  They literally copied and pasted the story, then changed a few names and locations make it fit into the Star Wars universe rather than the DnD one.  There are other similarities between the two games as well, but those are the obvious ones I can remember off the top of my head.

But this thread isn't about NWN or KOTOR, so before I get flamed for going off topic let me get to my point, which is this:  Bioware has been rehashing the same story elements for years now.  In virtually every Bioware game ever made, you have the same basic outline: 

-Travel around in search of x pieces of y device, which will lead you to your enemy or give you the power to defeat your enemy. 
- Over the course of your travels, acquire new companions with various personalities and side quests.  As discussed earlier in this thread, we see the same general character archetypes being used over and over again.
- Get betrayed by someone you know, usually a party member, but not aways (in Jade Empire, it's your master, in Mass Effect you and everyone else are betrayed by the evil Spectre)
- Discover the source of the ancient evil and learn that somehow you and you alone are capable of destroying it.

There is some variation, of course.  In Jade Empire and Mass Effect you don't have to gather armies to help you defeat the big bad guy, you just need to find out who or what it is and how to beat it.  In NWN2 and DA you're searching for clues or pieces to some ancient device, but looking for allies to aid you in your cause.

So I'll concede that there are similarities between DA and other Bioware games, not just NWN2 (not a Bioware game, but the first game developed by people who worked very closely with Bioware on other titles) though that one is the most obvious.  However, as FredericoV said on page 4, it's the quality of the world building and the writing that really makes the difference between the games.  Personally, I didn't notice the similarities between DA and NWN2 until they were pointed out here.  Now they do seem obvious, but I don't really care.  I don't mind the fact that they reused some story elements or character archetypes.   I still enjoyed the characters, the story, and the world they were set in for what they were. 

Modifié par Zachriel, 03 décembre 2009 - 12:05 .