303 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

What blood? My Mage Warden uses enough Cold spells to remove stains from robes many times over.

SotC: for all your cleaning needs.....

[tool_bot]

Elhanan wrote...

My only issue is when I reveal Anora to Cauthrian, and then am betrayed by the Queen. The first time this occured, it took me by surprise. This is also the option I chose later with my HNF; used as motivation to insure that this position on the throne will be vacant at the Landsmeet.

My motivation was always the Paragon of our kind quest. While my Wardens don't exactly like Alistair, there's a certain comradery there. He is the only other Warden and the two of you have been through so much together you each owe the other a certain amount of respect and love. Thinking back on what Bhelen did to ease his transition into kingship and how his first order was Harrowmont's execution, none could bring themselves to risk giving Anora the same oppurtunity.

[TJPags]

Elhanan wrote...

What blood? My Mage Warden uses enough Cold spells to remove stains from robes many times over.
SotC: for all your cleaning needs.....

Dog also does a damn good job of removing unsightly blood and gore.

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

So, her 'betrayal' is justified, since actually, you betrayed her first.

It's not the same thing though. Here you are trying to explain what happened to someone who doesn't know Howe's plots (if she did or was a part of them, how would shifting the blame to you help exactly) and trying to prevent your execution. By claiming you've kidnapped her she's basically signing your death warrant.

[TJPags]

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, her 'betrayal' is justified, since actually, you betrayed her first.

It's not the same thing though. Here you are trying to explain what happened to someone who doesn't know Howe's plots (if she did or was a part of them, how would shifting the blame to you help exactly) and trying to prevent your execution. By claiming you've kidnapped her she's basically signing your death warrant.

But saving her own life, which is, you remember, what you were asked to do by that elf serving lady.

Again, Anora knew that Howe suggested to Loghain that Anora be killed.  Anora is now Howe's prisoner.  Anora cannot trust at that point that even her father's troops would help her, which is part of the reason he serving lady goes to the Warden - Eamon (or maybe Alistair) even speculate that the Warden could be framed for a dead Anora.

Anora doesn't know you at this point.  He goal is saving her own life.  By pointing out she's with you to Cauthrien - her father's right hand woman - and Loghain's men, you may be endangering her.  She specifically told you not to do that.  You do, and she acts to try to protect herself, by (IMO) giving Cauthrien a clear target to go after YOU, so she (Anora) can escape.

[Sarah1281]

My motivation was always the Paragon of our kind quest. While my Wardens don't exactly like Alistair, there's a certain comradery there. He is the only other Warden and the two of you have been through so much together you each owe the other a certain amount of respect and love. Thinking back on what Bhelen did to ease his transition into kingship and how his first order was Harrowmont's execution, none could bring themselves to risk giving Anora the same oppurtunity.

I disagree that the fact that you have been travelling with Alistair for a year means that you owe each other anything. If you do like him/respect him/love him then fine but if not and it's just that you've been travelling together...why would that create any sort of obligation to put him on the throne?

[Wulfram]

TJPags wrote...

I was surprised as well when that happened, but keep in mind - Anora specifically told you NOT to reveal her.

No she doesn't.  Not as far as I can see.  She explains why she's in disguise, is all.  Possibly you should be able to interpret that, but it's hardly clear.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I disagree that the fact that you have been travelling with Alistair for a year means that you owe each other anything. If you do like him/respect him/love him then fine but if not and it's just that you've been travelling together...why would that create any sort of obligation to put him on the throne?

We haven't just been traveling together. His life depended on me and mine depended on him throughout most of the year we spent travelling Thedas. Maybe you disagree but you owe each other a certain amount of loyalty after all that even if you're at each other's throats constantly. I feel the same way about Wynne, Leli and Sten whom I'd very much like to feed to some ogre.

I also didn't mean to imply it gives you any obligation to put him on the throne. It just gave my Wardens another reason to be skeptical (don't think that's the word I want to use) of Anora.

[Elhanan]

TJPags wrote...

But saving her own life, which is, you remember, what you were asked to do by that elf serving lady.

Again, Anora knew that Howe suggested to Loghain that Anora be killed.  Anora is now Howe's prisoner.  Anora cannot trust at that point that even her father's troops would help her, which is part of the reason he serving lady goes to the Warden - Eamon (or maybe Alistair) even speculate that the Warden could be framed for a dead Anora.

Anora doesn't know you at this point.  He goal is saving her own life.  By pointing out she's with you to Cauthrien - her father's right hand woman - and Loghain's men, you may be endangering her.  She specifically told you not to do that.  You do, and she acts to try to protect herself, by (IMO) giving Cauthrien a clear target to go after YOU, so she (Anora) can escape.

She MAY tell you not to do that, as that dialogue is optional. Like I mentioned, first time I heard this, my reaction was somewhat like what is done IG. And when I return to the Estate as my HNF, I tell her in no uncertain terms that she crossed a line with me.

But she is nicer to the Warden in dialogue where you surrender, and need to be rescued. That small scene at the estate really does define her character a great deal.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

My motivation was always the Paragon of our kind quest. While my Wardens don't exactly like Alistair, there's a certain comradery there. He is the only other Warden and the two of you have been through so much together you each owe the other a certain amount of respect and love. Thinking back on what Bhelen did to ease his transition into kingship and how his first order was Harrowmont's execution, none could bring themselves to risk giving Anora the same oppurtunity.

I disagree that the fact that you have been travelling with Alistair for a year means that you owe each other anything. If you do like him/respect him/love him then fine but if not and it's just that you've been travelling together...why would that create any sort of obligation to put him on the throne?

This is a very important point. Note that Alistair will always stay with you, even at -100 approval, unless you be a "Lawful Good" hero and let Loghain survie as this makes the crybaby quit the party. So basically, he is a person who stays with you whatever you do - and that hardly creates any sort of obligation. 

[tool_bot]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

This is a very important point. Note that Alistair will always stay with you, even at -100 approval, unless you be a "Lawful Good" hero and let Loghain survie as this makes the crybaby quit the party. So basically, he is a person who stays with you whatever you do - and that hardly creates any sort of obligation. 

Ok so obviously my Wardens were overly sentimental types.

[Sarah1281]

No she doesn't. Not as far as I can see. She explains why she's in disguise, is all. Possibly you should be able to interpret that, but it's hardly clear.

How is this not clear?

PC: Why are you dressed like that?

Anora: Because there are two sorts of people in this house: those loyal to Howe, and those loyal to me. If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may <emp>also</emp> have me killed.



Is she supposed to say "And I do not want to be killed so don't reveal me?" It is blatantly obvious that her saying revealing her will probalby get her killed (regardless of whether this is true) means don't reveal her. Cauthrien isn't one of Howe's people OR her people but she is one of her father's people who will also insist on escorting her back to the palace.

Maybe you disagree but you owe each other a certain amount of loyalty after all that even if you're at each other's throats constantly.

I do disagree. If you hate each other and you're only working together because you're the only two Wardens around then you owe each other nothing.

[TJPags]

Elhanan wrote...

TJPags wrote...

But saving her own life, which is, you remember, what you were asked to do by that elf serving lady.

Again, Anora knew that Howe suggested to Loghain that Anora be killed.  Anora is now Howe's prisoner.  Anora cannot trust at that point that even her father's troops would help her, which is part of the reason he serving lady goes to the Warden - Eamon (or maybe Alistair) even speculate that the Warden could be framed for a dead Anora.

Anora doesn't know you at this point.  He goal is saving her own life.  By pointing out she's with you to Cauthrien - her father's right hand woman - and Loghain's men, you may be endangering her.  She specifically told you not to do that.  You do, and she acts to try to protect herself, by (IMO) giving Cauthrien a clear target to go after YOU, so she (Anora) can escape.

She MAY tell you not to do that, as that dialogue is optional. Like I mentioned, first time I heard this, my reaction was somewhat like what is done IG. And when I return to the Estate as my HNF, I tell her in no uncertain terms that she crossed a line with me.

But she is nicer to the Warden in dialogue where you surrender, and need to be rescued. That small scene at the estate really does define her character a great deal.

It may be optional, but I seem to get it often - must be how I play it/think. 

And yes, she is a lot nicer when you surrender or otherwise don't reveal her, and I'm pretty sure you do get the option to tell her she crossed a line - but still, that IS her motivation, and from her POV, you threw her under the bus, so she did the same to you - and I think she also tells you that.

*edit - PS - My PC's have never liked Alistair all that much - personally, I hate the whiny bastard, although some of my PC's have been ambivelant, but none have really liked him.  I feel no obligation to put that whiny bastard who doesn't want to be king anyway - doesn't even want to lead our group! - on the throne, no matter how many darkspawn he kills or how many miles he's walked following me around.

Modifié par TJPags, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:58 .

[Sarah1281]

If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may <emp>also</emp> have me killed.

This line is something that you cannot avoid getting with her. You have three dialogue options. "Aren't you a little short for a guard" leads to this line, "Why are you dressed like that?" leads to this line, and "Let's go" leads to this line. She always tells you that if people find her, her life will be in danger.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No she doesn't. Not as far as I can see. She explains why she's in disguise, is all. Possibly you should be able to interpret that, but it's hardly clear.

How is this not clear?
PC: Why are you dressed like that?
Anora: Because there are two sorts of people in this house: those loyal to Howe, and those loyal to me. If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may also have me killed.

Is she supposed to say "And I do not want to be killed so don't reveal me?" It is blatantly obvious that her saying revealing her will probalby get her killed (regardless of whether this is true) means don't reveal her. Cauthrien isn't one of Howe's people OR her people but she is one of her father's people who will also insist on escorting her back to the palace.

When the alternative is everyone getting killed by Ser Cauthrien, yes specificity would be nice.

[Elhanan]

She lied, and placed me and my team in peril is all I need to know. She may justify it a million varied ways, but from that point on we are done as allies.

My first encounter with this dialogue had me almost apologetic when I returned, but it tasted wrong to me. So I used the more combative choices with the HNF.

[Sarah1281]

When the alternative is everyone getting killed by Ser Cauthrien, yes specificity would be nice.

Specificity like saying "BTW, I don't want to die?" Really?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may also have me killed.

This line is something that you cannot avoid getting with her. You have three dialogue options. "Aren't you a little short for a guard" leads to this line, "Why are you dressed like that?" leads to this line, and "Let's go" leads to this line. She always tells you that if people find her, her life will be in danger.

Apparently she was not clear enough :innocent:

[tool_bot]

Elhanan wrote...

She lied, and placed me and my team in peril is all I need to know. She may justify it a million varied ways, but from that point on we are done as allies.

Those are my thoughts too. She's already demonstrated she doesn't view you as all that useful or necessary. Why would she be any different at the landsmeet?

[TJPags]

Elhanan wrote...

She lied, and placed me and my team in peril is all I need to know. She may justify it a million varied ways, but from that point on we are done as allies.
My first encounter with this dialogue had me almost apologetic when I returned, but it tasted wrong to me. So I used the more combative choices with the HNF.

You were already in peril and already faced with the choice of being arrested or fighting your way out and maybe dying.

How did she make anythng worse?

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe you disagree but you owe each other a certain amount of loyalty after all that even if you're at each other's throats constantly.

I do disagree. If you hate each other and you're only working together because you're the only two Wardens around then you owe each other nothing.

Ah well, like I said. I'm the overly sentimental type and apparently so are my Wardens.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may also have me killed.

This line is something that you cannot avoid getting with her. You have three dialogue options. "Aren't you a little short for a guard" leads to this line, "Why are you dressed like that?" leads to this line, and "Let's go" leads to this line. She always tells you that if people find her, her life will be in danger.

Not certain, but this may only be said if you bother asking her as to why. Some of my Wardens do not care is she comes formal wear, or in a tater sack, so they do not inquire.

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

You were already in peril and already faced with the choice of being arrested or fighting your way out and maybe dying.

How did she make anythng worse?

It's like coming to the home of a man suspected of murder and a small girl suddenly jumping out from behind and screaming 'help me! he's got a gun!'

[FellowerOfOdin]

Ok so obviously my Wardens were overly sentimental types.

Haha, no, I could not insult Alistair either, always had him at +100 approval until he decided to leave the party for a pretty stupid reason.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may also have me killed.

This line is something that you cannot avoid getting with her. You have three dialogue options. "Aren't you a little short for a guard" leads to this line, "Why are you dressed like that?" leads to this line, and "Let's go" leads to this line. She always tells you that if people find her, her life will be in danger.

Not certain, but this may only be said if you bother asking her as to why. Some of my Wardens do not care is she comes formal wear, or in a tater sack, so they do not inquire.

I find it rather odd that you quoted me saying that all three of the dialogue options including the "Let's go" one leads to this line and then say that you have no idea if the other options lead to this line. They do. You always hear this. Anora always tells you this. If she didn't tell you then you might decide to reveal her to her own people and think that that would be okay. Given that they're her own people, it would be an understandable mistake to make and thus she clarifies 100% of the time that you aren't supposed to tell anybody. Given that Cauthrien is one of her father's people, she would be twice as likely to take Anora to her father which she says would be a bad idea.