303 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

When the alternative is everyone getting killed by Ser Cauthrien, yes specificity would be nice.

Specificity like saying "BTW, I don't want to die?" Really?

Specificity like "Even if this is the only sensible way of getting any of us, including me, out of here alive, you should still keep your mouth shut and trust that I'll magically go unnoticed, while you'll be kept in the least secure prison in history."

All she seems to be saying to me is "This is why I'm wearing a disguise, rather than just marching out of here."  It has little relevance to the situation we actually find ourselves in.  After all, she has no reason to expect us to run into Cauthrien, just Howe's guards.

[Elhanan]

TJPags wrote...]

You were already in peril and already faced with the choice of being arrested or fighting your way out and maybe dying.

How did she make anythng worse?

By losing trust in a possible ally if nothing else. But with this lie, you are forced to fight. Surrender is only possible then if you are captured.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

When the alternative is everyone getting killed by Ser Cauthrien, yes specificity would be nice.

Specificity like saying "BTW, I don't want to die?" Really?

Specificity like "Even if this is the only sensible way of getting any of us, including me, out of here alive, you should still keep your mouth shut and trust that I'll magically go unnoticed, while you'll be kept in the least secure prison in history."

All she seems to be saying to me is "This is why I'm wearing a disguise, rather than just marching out of here."  It has little relevance to the situation we actually find ourselves in.  After all, she has no reason to expect us to run into Cauthrien, just Howe's guards.

Do you really not understand that she's warning you about a possible threat to all of you? As for Cauthrien, how on earth would Anora know that she's waiting for you?

[FellowerOfOdin]

Btw, Cuthrien chose to die when fighting you. She could have had surrendered when she was low on health (like...way too many people in the game), letting you go - that way, she would have fulfilled her duty ("I got knocked unconsciousness and the GW could escape" etc.) and you'd still be free and on your way too save Ferelden.



Man, I wanted her to be a party member. If we get a useless melee (aka 2-hand weapon fighter), I'd take 1000x Cuthrien than the retarded Oghren.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

Do you really not understand that she's warning you about a possible threat to all of you? As for Cauthrien, how on earth would Anora know that she's waiting for you?

I agree Anora wouldn't have known Cauthrien is waiting for you.  That's one reason why I don't find her warning particularly relevant to the situation.

[Elhanan]

Monica21 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

When the alternative is everyone getting killed by Ser Cauthrien, yes specificity would be nice.

Specificity like saying "BTW, I don't want to die?" Really?

Specificity like "Even if this is the only sensible way of getting any of us, including me, out of here alive, you should still keep your mouth shut and trust that I'll magically go unnoticed, while you'll be kept in the least secure prison in history."

All she seems to be saying to me is "This is why I'm wearing a disguise, rather than just marching out of here."  It has little relevance to the situation we actually find ourselves in.  After all, she has no reason to expect us to run into Cauthrien, just Howe's guards.

Do you really not understand that she's warning you about a possible threat to all of you? As for Cauthrien, how on earth would Anora know that she's waiting for you?

Perhaps Anora or her maid are the ones that signal Cauthrian? This event has many possible variations.

The silver lining is that Howe dies in them all!

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

When the alternative is everyone getting killed by Ser Cauthrien, yes specificity would be nice.

Specificity like saying "BTW, I don't want to die?" Really?

Specificity like "Even if this is the only sensible way of getting any of us, including me, out of here alive, you should still keep your mouth shut and trust that I'll magically go unnoticed, while you'll be kept in the least secure prison in history."

All she seems to be saying to me is "This is why I'm wearing a disguise, rather than just marching out of here."  It has little relevance to the situation we actually find ourselves in.  After all, she has no reason to expect us to run into Cauthrien, just Howe's guards.

But she tells you that if one of her people (or, even more so, her father's) finds her she will be taken to Loghain who she fears will kill her. You run into Cauthrien and might be able to beat her, you might survive surrender and Cauthrien is only looking for you and maybe Alistair, or she might be able to flee during the fight. That places he odds a lot better, based on the information she gave you, then Anora getting out of the estate alive by revealing her only to haver her killed back at the palace.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 But she tells you that if one of her people (or, even more so, her father's) finds her she will be taken to Loghain who she fears will kill her. You run into Cauthrien and might be able to beat her, you might survive surrender and Cauthrien is only looking for you and maybe Alistair, or she might be able to flee during the fight. That places he odds a lot better, based on the information she gave you, then Anora getting out of the estate alive by revealing her only to haver her killed back at the palace.

She's got much better odds of getting out of there - and indeed actually helping in the fight against Loghain - if she helps me talk Ser Cauthrien down.  While "Warden (and potentially Alistair) captured/killed after murdering Arl of Denerim" seems like something that's going to totally screw us up, even if Anora does by some miracle escape the scene.

I don't particularly hold Anora's actions against her, I should say.  It just goes down as a general screw up.  But the claim was that Anora specifically tells the Warden not to do it, and that it constitutes a betrayal on the warden's part, and I don't agree with either of those statements.

[TJPags]

Come on, is this really that open to debate?

She tells you Howe's men might kill her - she's locked up in his palace after being asked to go there, so yes, this seems logical.

She tells you her father's people might kill her - Howe is Loghain's right hand man, he kidnapped her daughter, can you really think this is such a stretch?  And Loghain CONFIRMS that Howe broached the subject with him (killing Anora) and that Anora knew it.  So again, this prt seems logical.

Then, you run into Cauthrien, who wants to arrest you for killing Howe - Cauthrien, Loghain's foremost commander/confidant, with a roomful of Loghain's men, to boot.  So after Anora tells you NOT to tell her father's people who she is, you blurt out "but here's the Queen!!!" in an attempt to save your own life, possibly leading to her death, and you're annoyed that she contradicts you?  You think she should have been clearer?

Maid:  "The Queen needs you to rescue her"
Queen:  "Don't tell anyone I'm here, or my life may be in danger still"
Cauthrien:  "You're under arrest!"
You: "But here's the Queen, oh honored underling of Loghain!!!"

And you expect Anora to just say "Hi Cauthrien, how's it hanging?"???

Pretty unreasonable, if you ask me.  And for someone who's been fighting their way through Howe's men to specifically save the Queens life, kind of silly.

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

Pretty unreasonable, if you ask me.  And for someone who's been fighting their way through Howe's men to specifically save the Queens life, kind of silly.

I am not there to save the Queen's life. I am there to gain a hopeful ally against Loghain and obviously this ally is more trouble then she's worth.

[TJPags]

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Pretty unreasonable, if you ask me.  And for someone who's been fighting their way through Howe's men to specifically save the Queens life, kind of silly.

I am not there to save the Queen's life. I am there to gain a hopeful ally against Loghain and obviously this ally is more trouble then she's worth.

Gain a possible ally.

Okay.  How helpful will she be if you don't save her life???????

Have to do one before the other, you know.

[Wulfram]

TJPags wrote...

And you expect Anora to just say "Hi Cauthrien, how's it hanging?"???

Pretty unreasonable, if you ask me.  And for someone who's been fighting their way through Howe's men to specifically save the Queens life, kind of silly.

I expect Anora to order Cauthrien to stand down, her being Cauthrien's Queen and all.  If she can't help persuade Loghain's supporters to defect, she's pretty much useless to me anyway.  Later events vindicate this option, since Cauthrien does in fact stand aside at the landsmeet, despite having no good explanation for the Warden's massacre at the Arl's. 

The Warden likely wants to save her life, but the priority is to defeat Loghain.  Getting himself - and potentially Alistair - killed committing unexplained violent mayhem in the house of the Arl will harm that cause severely. 

[Sarah1281]

Anora's usefulness as an ally is to convince the other nobles to side with her NOT to be able to control Loghain's men.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Anora's usefulness as an ally is to convince the other nobles to side with her NOT to be able to control Loghain's men.

She should be able to do both.  At least, she should try when the alternative is to almost certainly doom her prospective allies, and make Loghain's hold on power unshakable.

[TJPags]

Wulfram wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And you expect Anora to just say "Hi Cauthrien, how's it hanging?"???

Pretty unreasonable, if you ask me.  And for someone who's been fighting their way through Howe's men to specifically save the Queens life, kind of silly.

I expect Anora to order Cauthrien to stand down, her being Cauthrien's Queen and all.  If she can't help persuade Loghain's supporters to defect, she's pretty much useless to me anyway.  Later events vindicate this option, since Cauthrien does in fact stand aside at the landsmeet, despite having no good explanation for the Warden's massacre at the Arl's. 

The Warden likely wants to save her life, but the priority is to defeat Loghain.  Getting himself - and potentially Alistair - killed committing unexplained violent mayhem in the house of the Arl will harm that cause severely. 

Her being Queen didn't seem to faze Howe - Loghain's supporter and crony/right hand man - or Howe's soldiers - her subjects, yes? - from taking her captive and holding her in the first place, now did it?  Do we really expect Cauthrien to take Anora's orders there?  Is it realistic?   I don't think it is, reasonably.

And I don't think the priority is defeating Loghain - it's stopping the blight.  Defeating Loghain is what many consider one step on that path, but it's not essential.  Simply getting Loghain to agree to fight the Darkspawn- as he does if you make him a Warden - is enough.

And even WITH that overall priority, your goal in THIS mission is to rescue the Queen.  She might help you stop Loghain, she might not - you don't know at that point.  The mission is stil to rescue her and save her life.  Giving her up to people who she says may kill her is not a smart way to do that.

[Addai]

So giving yourself up to torture and death is a smart way to achieve your mission?

[mousestalker]

Addai67 wrote...

So giving yourself up to torture and death is a smart way to achieve your mission?

The rational in game response is to fight. As a player, with knowledge my character would not have, the more fun option is to surrender.

[Wulfram]

TJPags wrote...

Her being Queen didn't seem to faze Howe - Loghain's supporter and crony/right hand man - or Howe's soldiers - her subjects, yes? - from taking her captive and holding her in the first place, now did it?  Do we really expect Cauthrien to take Anora's orders there?  Is it realistic?   I don't think it is, reasonably.

It's more realistic than the Queen being able to sneak away unchallenged because of a rather thin disguise.  It's more realistic than the Warden and Alistair ever being seen alive again if they're taken into custody.

And I don't think the priority is defeating Loghain - it's stopping the blight.  Defeating Loghain is what many consider one step on that path, but it's not essential.  Simply getting Loghain to agree to fight the Darkspawn- as he does if you make him a Warden - is enough.

At this stage, the priority is defeating Loghain, since he has set himself clearly against the Grey Wardens.

And even WITH that overall priority, your goal in THIS mission is to rescue the Queen.  She might help you stop Loghain, she might not - you don't know at that point.  The mission is stil to rescue her and save her life.  Giving her up to people who she says may kill her is not a smart way to do that.

I'm not giving her up.  I'm asking for her help in getting us out of this alive.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

So giving yourself up to torture and death is a smart way to achieve your mission?

Your ultimate mission?  No, not at all.

THIS mission?  If it gets the Queen out safely, then yes.

I'm not saying this whole situation isn't a little screwy - saving the Queen potentially means letting yourself and Alistair die, so you can't stop the AD - but there it is.  <shrug>

All I'm saying is, giving her up to Cauthrien by announcing her presence, after she told you not to do that, and then getting mad at her when she, in turn, tosses you under the bus, is kind of illogical.

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So giving yourself up to torture and death is a smart way to achieve your mission?

Your ultimate mission?  No, not at all.

That right there sums up my feelings entirely.

[TJPags]

Wulfram wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Her being Queen didn't seem to faze Howe - Loghain's supporter and crony/right hand man - or Howe's soldiers - her subjects, yes? - from taking her captive and holding her in the first place, now did it?  Do we really expect Cauthrien to take Anora's orders there?  Is it realistic?   I don't think it is, reasonably.

It's more realistic than the Queen being able to sneak away unchallenged because of a rather thin disguise.  It's more realistic than the Warden and Alistair ever being seen alive again if they're taken into custody.

And I don't think the priority is defeating Loghain - it's stopping the blight.  Defeating Loghain is what many consider one step on that path, but it's not essential.  Simply getting Loghain to agree to fight the Darkspawn- as he does if you make him a Warden - is enough.

At this stage, the priority is defeating Loghain, since he has set himself clearly against the Grey Wardens.

And even WITH that overall priority, your goal in THIS mission is to rescue the Queen.  She might help you stop Loghain, she might not - you don't know at that point.  The mission is stil to rescue her and save her life.  Giving her up to people who she says may kill her is not a smart way to do that.

I'm not giving her up.  I'm asking for her help in getting us out of this alive.

But YOU getting out alive is NOT the point of THIS mission.

And there is nothing that would make you believe that announcing her presence may help that goal, even if it WAS your goal here.  In fact, Anora's specific instructions are NOT to do that, it will result in her possibly being killed.  If SHE may be killed by Loghain's men, how will it help YOU get out alive?
 
You're free to think she's wrong for saying what she does.  You're free to be mad at her for it.  But it seems VERY illogical to think that.

[TJPags]

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So giving yourself up to torture and death is a smart way to achieve your mission?

Your ultimate mission?  No, not at all.

That right there sums up my feelings entirely.

Then don't surrender, announce the queen's presence, and when that goes bad, fight your way out - or die doing so, and/or possibly have the queen die during that fight..  That's a viable option, too.

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...
and/or possibly have the queen die during that fight..  That's a viable option, too.

If only...

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...
and/or possibly have the queen die during that fight..  That's a viable option, too.

If only...

That would make your entire trip to Howe's estate completely pointless.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

So giving yourself up to torture and death is a smart way to achieve your mission?

You can surmise that Cauthrien will not kill you, but is here to arrest you. And you can also deduce that it's not in Loghain's interest to kill you before the Landsmeet without trial. If Morrigan gave you the ring, then you know that she can find you. So while surrendering yourself to her might lead to death eventually, there is time for your companions to break you out. So you avoid fighting an unnecessary battle and you avoid putting Anora's life at risk.

Though I wish the surrendering choice was more "polished". Like you proposing an exchange. You surrendering in exchange for your companions getting out.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 07:54 .