303 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

TJPags wrote...

But YOU getting out alive is NOT the point of THIS mission.

I generally consider it important, however.  If Alistair is there too, it is certainly vital that he get out.

And there is nothing that would make you believe that announcing her presence may help that goal, even if it WAS your goal here.

Apart from the fact that these are troops who regard her as Queen, and thus are likely to have second thoughts about going against her orders.

As I've said, given Cauthrien's subsequent actions there is every reason to believe that if she had backed the Warden up, it would have worked.

In fact, Anora's specific instructions are NOT to do that, it will result in her possibly being killed.

She gives no such specific instructions.  Her comments are not even instructions, let alone specific.

If SHE may be killed by Loghain's men, how will it help YOU get out alive?
 
You're free to think she's wrong for saying what she does.  You're free to be mad at her for it.  But it seems VERY illogical to think that.

I'm not mad at her.  Since we both end up at Eamon's in the end, I accept that it was a bit of a screw up but no harm done or malice intended on either side and get on with it.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...
and/or possibly have the queen die during that fight..  That's a viable option, too.

If only...

That would make your entire trip to Howe's estate completely pointless.

More pointless then the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest?

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...
and/or possibly have the queen die during that fight..  That's a viable option, too.

If only...

That would make your entire trip to Howe's estate completely pointless.

More pointless then the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest?

This would be like if you did the quest only to poison the Ashes before taking any.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

All I'm saying is, giving her up to Cauthrien by announcing her presence, after she told you not to do that, and then getting mad at her when she, in turn, tosses you under the bus, is kind of illogical.

Except we know the whole thing was a game and Anora was never really in danger from Loghain.  Regardless, as I've said before, Anora has a much better chance with Loghain than you do.  Expecting her to pony up a little support at that point is not extreme.

[TJPags]

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]TJPags wrote...

But YOU getting out alive is NOT the point of THIS mission.[/quote]

I generally consider it important, however.  If Alistair is there too, it is certainly vital that he get out.[/quote]

I consider it important to be alive also.  More important than Alistair being alive, even.  After all, I don't need him if I have Anora's backing.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]And there is nothing that would make you believe that announcing her presence may help that goal, even if it WAS your goal here.[/quote]

Apart from the fact that these are troops who regard her as Queen, and thus are likely to have second thoughts about going against her orders.

As I've said, given Cauthrien's subsequent actions there is every reason to believe that if she had backed the Warden up, it would have worked.[/quote]

Howe's troops know she's the Queen, too, as does Howe himself.  Again, didn't stop them.

And if we're considering Cauthrien's subsequent actions, then this debate is pointless, since we KNOW that you get neither killed, nor tortured, and in fact are rescued or break out forthwith.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]In fact, Anora's specific instructions are NOT to do that, it will result in her possibly being killed.[/quote]
She gives no such specific instructions.  Her comments are not even instructions, let alone specific. [/quote]

If you want to keep quibbling about this, so be it.  I see it as her saying "even Loghain's men might kill me",  you see it as a vague suggestion that she feels like playing dress up. 

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]If SHE may be killed by Loghain's men, how will it help YOU get out alive?
 
You're free to think she's wrong for saying what she does.  You're free to be mad at her for it.  But it seems VERY illogical to think that.[/quote]

I'm not mad at her.  Since we both end up at Eamon's in the end, I accept that it was a bit of a screw up but no harm done or malice intended on either side and get on with it.

[/quote][/quote]

Then why does it matter what she does or says if you don't hold it against her?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

All I'm saying is, giving her up to Cauthrien by announcing her presence, after she told you not to do that, and then getting mad at her when she, in turn, tosses you under the bus, is kind of illogical.

Except we know the whole thing was a game and Anora was never really in danger from Loghain.

Metagaming knowledge, you don't know that.
And it is entirely possible that Anora did think her life was in danger from Loghain if he found out that she is backstabbing him. Hence why she'd want to confuse Cauthrien and send her after you (if you reveal her), so that Loghain doesn't find out what Anora is doing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:14 .

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...
This would be like if you did the quest only to poison the Ashes before taking any.

Chaotic Neutral doesn't need to make sense. :innocent:

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Metagaming knowledge, you don't know that.

You also don't know you'll survive, especially if you're not a noble or Ferelden. For all you know you're going to be executed.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Metagaming knowledge, you don't know that.
And it is entirely possible that Anora did think her life was in danger from Loghain if he found out that she is backstabbing him. Hence why she'd want to confuse Cauthrien and send her after you (if you reveal her), so that Loghain doesn't find out what Anora is doing.

It doesn't take metagaming to know that Anora is going to have a better shot surviving an encounter with her father than you are.  He's already tried to kill you once, besides declaring you an outlaw.  That's just common sense and self preservation.

[Wulfram]

TJPags wrote...

Then why does it matter what she does or says if you don't hold it against her?

I don't consider it constitutes a betrayal on the Warden's part, or that it is an unreasonable or foolish action, as has been suggested.

[TJPags]

tool_bot wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Metagaming knowledge, you don't know that.

You also don't know you'll survive, especially if you're not a noble or Ferelden. For all you know you're going to be executed.

I think this argues for simply fighting your way out and not announcing Anora is with you.  I can easily see this sequence coming true:

Cauthrien:  "stop, you're under arrest, Warden"
You: "But I have the Queen"
Anora:  "He's kidnapping me!!!"
Cauthrien: "Forget arresting him, KILL HIM!!!!"

After all, there's now a DEFINITE reason and excuse to kill you - you were caught kidnapping and threatening the life of the Queen.

Frankly, I'd like an option to put a knife to Anora's throat and say: "back off or I slit her throat".  While not nice, THAT might be the kind of thing that Cauthrien might back off for, unless she KNOWS Loghain wants Anora dead.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tool_bot wrote...
You also don't know you'll survive, especially if you're not a noble or Ferelden. For all you know you're going to be executed.

Cauthrien says you're under arrest, she isn't threatening you with death. And while you might be executed, it's not in Loghain's interest to do it without trial, it will look like he is eliminating his main opponent right before the Landsmeet. So you have time to be break out, especially if you know that Morrigan will know where you are. 

Addai67 wrote...
It
doesn't take metagaming to know that Anora is going to have a better
shot surviving an encounter with her father than you are.  He's already
tried to kill you once, besides declaring you an outlaw.  That's just
common sense and self preservation.

What if Loghain finds out that she is backstabbing him by allying with you? Of course I know that he would not kill her, but does your character know at that point?

The difference with before is that now, there is a Landsmeet and you are a key player. How will Loghain look like if he killed his main opponent? Badly. It would be much more beneficiary for him to put you on trial and not just kill you, giving you time to escape.

Of course we don't know that for sure, it is a calculated risk.
You can of course say the same about telling Cauthrien about Anora, even if she warned you not to. But from Anora's perspective, you're ruining everything and possibly putting her life in danger.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Wulfram]

What I'd like is the option to put back on my guards uniforms, since they seem to be foolproof disguises in Ferelden.

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Cauthrien says you're under arrest, she isn't threatening you with death. And while you might be executed, it's not in Loghain's interest to do it without trial, it will look like he is eliminating his main opponent right before the Landsmeet. So you have time to be break out, especially if you know that Morrigan will know where you are. 

You don't know what Loghain is going to do or what his plans for you are. You can reason that it's in his best interest to let you live but there's no guarantee he's going too. You also aren't his main opponent. Eamon is as he's leading the rebellion against him. You're just a loose end who's murdered a man with more titles then he has right too and led the King and all his forces to their death right before selling them out to Orlais.

I agree you have time to break out though and if you were a shapeshifter prison wouldn't be much of a danger to you anyway. (or at least shouldn't have been. *sigh*)

Modifié par tool_bot, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:32 .

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

Frankly, I'd like an option to put a knife to Anora's throat and say: "back off or I slit her throat".  While not nice, THAT might be the kind of thing that Cauthrien might back off for, unless she KNOWS Loghain wants Anora dead.

This reminds me of a scene in Final Fantasy Tactics that ended very poorly for me.

Curse you, Zalbag!

[KnightofPhoenix]

tool_bot wrote...
You don't know what Loghain is going to do or what his plans for you are. You can reason that it's in his best interest to let you live there's no guarantee he's going too. You also aren't his main opponent either. Eamon is as he's leading the rebellion against him. You're just a loose end who's murdered a man with more titles then he has right too and led the King and all his forces to their death right before selling them out to Orlais.

I agree you have time to break out though and if you were a shapeshifter prison wouldn't be much of a danger to you anyway. (or at least shouldn't have been. *sigh*)

You are his main opponent and you're the one with the army. He knows that and Anora knows that hence why she wants you specifically (and not Eamon, she couldn't are less about him). Also, Eamon clearly tells you that he won't do anything without your call. The fact that you are the most important player is not alien to anyone.
Loghain: "It's either me or you the men will follow".

Of course he says that before all this, so your character may not know. But you can think that you are the most important player and you would be right. 

Of course, there is no guarantee and it is a calculated risk.
Just like fighting Cauthrien and possibly putting Anora's life in danger is also a risk.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, there is no guarantee and it is a calculated risk.
Just like fighting Cauthrien and possibly putting Anora's life in danger is also a risk.

Well, from a pragmatic point of view, if Anora dies at the hands of Loghain's troops then that suits me pretty well actually.  There's enough soldiers there that the true story is going to be difficult to cover up.

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are his main opponent and you're the one with the army. He knows that and Anora knows that hence why she wants you specifically (and not Eamon, she couldn't are less about him).

I think the reason Anora asks for you to do help her is more to do with what you are (an outlaw Warden) and the set of skills you possess then anything else. After all, what is Eamon going to do? Don a disguise and break into the Howe's residence?

[tool_bot]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, there is no guarantee and it is a calculated risk.
Just like fighting Cauthrien and possibly putting Anora's life in danger is also a risk.

Well, from a pragmatic point of view, if Anora dies at the hands of Loghain's troops then that suits me pretty well actually.  There's enough soldiers there that the true story is going to be difficult to cover up.

It depends on how it happens and when it happens. If she's locked away during the Landsmeet and hasn't been seen since you were spotted trying to kidnap her,I don't see that be counted against Loghain.

Modifié par tool_bot, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:47 .

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are his main opponent and you're the one with the army. He knows that and Anora knows that hence why she wants you specifically (and not Eamon, she couldn't are less about him).

I think the reason Anora asks for you to do help her is more to do with what you are (an outlaw Warden) and the set of skills you possess then anything else. After all, what is Eamon going to do? Don a disguise and break into the Howe's residence?

That would be epic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tool_bot wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are his main opponent and you're the one with the army. He knows that and Anora knows that hence why she wants you specifically (and not Eamon, she couldn't are less about him).

I think the reason Anora asks for you to do help her is more to do with what you are (an outlaw Warden) and the set of skills you possess then anything else. After all, what is Eamon going to do? Don a disguise and break into the Howe's residence?

She says later on that she wants an alliance with you specifically because she knows that you will be the one deciding at the Landsmeet. But like I said, your character may not realise how important he / she is.

Mine does, perhaps out of a sense of great self-esteem.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, there is no guarantee and it is a calculated risk.
Just like fighting Cauthrien and possibly putting Anora's life in danger is also a risk.

Well, from a pragmatic point of view, if Anora dies at the hands of Loghain's troops then that suits me pretty well actually.  There's enough soldiers there that the true story is going to be difficult to cover up.

Those soldiers may be too loyal to Loghain that they wouldn't care and / or, they might blame you for it.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Those soldiers may be too loyal to Loghain that they wouldn't care and / or, they might blame you for it.

I can't believe that they'd be loyal enough that they'd go along with killing their queen.

Though on second thoughts, if I'm not dead I've probably killed all the witnesses, which makes things quite a bit more difficult

She says later on that she wants an alliance with you specifically
because she knows that you will be the one deciding at the Landsmeet.
But like I said, your character may not realise how important he / she
is.

Also probably because she knows Eamon would always back Alistair over her, what with his Theirin bloodline hang ups.

[Sarah1281]

Also probably because she knows Eamon would always back Alistair over her, what with his Theirin bloodline hang ups.

Yeah, Eamon even basically tells Anora she should have just sent her information over with Erlina instead of making them rescue her. He's clearly never going to be on her side.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Also probably because she knows Eamon would always back Alistair over her, what with his Theirin bloodline hang ups.

Yeah, Eamon even basically tells Anora she should have just sent her information over with Erlina instead of making them rescue her. He's clearly never going to be on her side.

Which doesn't really matter, the final say is ours and I think Anora realised this.
Eamon was the one who called the Landsmeet, Alistair was a tool to strengthen our claim, but you are the key player. Both Loghain and Anora realise this imo. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 09:05 .