303 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Quill74Pen wrote...

Sarah1281:

Fine. She dies each and every time. On top of that, she, too, abandoned King Cailen, his army and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar. "Oh, I was just following orders!" doesn't cut it. There are times in one's life when you stand against authority, damn the consequences, because authority — be it secular, religious or business — isn't always right.

Quill74Pen

If she had done that then who knows what Loghain would have done to her but he most definitely would have left anyway. He just would have been the one to say 'move out' like Cauthrien did. Her defying him wouldn't have saved anybody and might have cost her her own life.

[ugabug]

TJPags wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You know, I kind of liked her. She seemed to have a little bit of a mind and the ability to think on her own . . . just not enough to save her life.

I've yet to talk her down, although I've tried several times - I assume I just don't pick the right options. She dies outside the Landsmeet every time . . . and that death I actually feel bad about.

If you're trying to use Persuade, it apparently doesn't work right on PC. It checks your Poison skill instead. *shrug*  And I'm not sure what one has to do with the other because they're apparently not linked in the toolset, but the only way I've managed to successfully Persuade her is if I surrender to her at Howe's estate.

No, I'm on the 360 - I've tried it with all 4 coercian ranks, and still didn't get her to back down, which is why I assume I pick a wrong dialogue option in there which screws it.   If I could recruit her, I'd be hell bent to do so, but since I can't . . . oh well.

I remember reading on these forums before that you need 35 cunning along with the 4 coercion ranks to persuade her to stand down.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

P.S. My characters have real problems with folks who talk down to them and pretend they've done more with loyalty and honor and whatnot than my characters have. You dare to say that to the Grey Warden who has all but united Ferelden against the Blight?!

Seeing as how from her perspective your working with Eamon who is the reason that Ferelden ISN'T united against the Blight...yes, yes she does dare.

Another reason she dies, she's to loyal to the old guard.

Terribly sorry Cauthrien but you've just demonstrated what having you around is going to be like. And I kinda don;t like being tortured. So... here's hoping next time you keep your emotions in check when dealing with people who've stared down the monsters your gran used to scare you with.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Who is she to call my Warden "churl" and tell me that my betters are talking? Especially since she comes from commoner roots herself?

Yeah, that's annoying but it seems kind of petty to kill her for it.

And given how completely unsurprised Loghain is to see you at the Landsmeet, he either had no idea or fully expected Cauthrien to get herself killed. I can't see him having her make a suicide attack like that and then never even mentioning it.

(husband)

Well when I play I often kill her for the remark and that fancey sword of her's.   If she didn't have a nice drop though I would probably let her go.

LOL!

That remark really isn't helping her much, is it?

I've never actually used her sword. Probably because I'm to play a 2H warrior in Origins and I never have Sten or Oghren in my party after the Cauthrien battle.

[Monica21]

tool_bot wrote...
Another reason she dies, she's to loyal to the old guard.

Terribly sorry Cauthrien but you've just demonstrated what having you around is going to be like. And I kinda don;t like being tortured. So... here's hoping next time you keep your emotions in check when dealing with people who've stared down the monsters your gran used to scare you with.

I don't know a nicer way to say this, but that's stupid. The persuade check is something like "don't you see what Loghain has become?" If you pass, she stands down, essentially agreeing with you, but asking you to spare him.

I can't help but wonder how many times you've actually played the game.

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...

tool_bot wrote...
Another reason she dies, she's to loyal to the old guard.

Terribly sorry Cauthrien but you've just demonstrated what having you around is going to be like. And I kinda don;t like being tortured. So... here's hoping next time you keep your emotions in check when dealing with people who've stared down the monsters your gran used to scare you with.

I don't know a nicer way to say this, but that's stupid. The persuade check is something like "don't you see what Loghain has become?" If you pass, she stands down, essentially agreeing with you, but asking you to spare him.

I can't help but wonder how many times you've actually played the game.

You'll notice I've also mentioned I feel bad about letting her live when I'm going to kill Loghain anyway. 

edit: not that you're interested but I've completed maybe 10 runthroughs of which 5 or 6 were mages. Never done the human Origin and I've yet to do the Dalish on the PC. The actual Landsmeet itself I mostly hit esc through because I never got over my initial reaction on the 360 to just feed the country to the darkspawn and nothing made me hate Ferelden more then listening to its nobles. (I won my first time up by promising to make Anora Queen. Plan was to wed her to Alistair. Didn't work out to well.)

Modifié par tool_bot, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Quill74Pen wrote...
Fine. She dies each and every time. On top of that, she, too, abandoned King Cailen, his army and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar. "Oh, I was just following orders!" doesn't cut it. There are times in one's life when you stand against authority, damn the consequences, because authority — be it secular, religious or business — isn't always right.

So, are you willing to kill all of Loghain's men that also "abandoned" the king? Because they too just followed orders and apparently that does't cut it for you. Afterall, the entire army should have stood against Loghain's authority and went head long into their doom because it's the "right" thing to do. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:15 .

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
Fine. She dies each and every time. On top of that, she, too, abandoned King Cailen, his army and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar. "Oh, I was just following orders!" doesn't cut it. There are times in one's life when you stand against authority, damn the consequences, because authority — be it secular, religious or business — isn't always right.

So, are you willing to kill all of Loghain's men that also "abandoned" the king? Because they too just followed orders and apparently that does't cut it for you. Afterall, the entire army should have stood against Loghain's authority and went head long into their doom because it's the "right" thing to do. 

The situations would be different though. Cauthrien was right beside him, she was not only in a position to see what he saw but to actually speak her mind. A lowly grunt way in the back of the formation really doesn't know what's going on beyond whatever signal he receives from his superior.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tool_bot wrote...
The situations would be different though. Cauthrien was right beside him, she was not only in a position to see what he saw but to actually speak her mind. A lowly grunt way in the back of the formation really doesn't know what's going on beyond whatever signal he receives from his superior.

What about those at the front then? 
And why those at the back didn't question their orders? 

All of them could see the beacon and they retreated. Why? Why didn't they ask Loghain? 
Because they follow orders. 

So if you want to assume that logic, all of them have to die. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:23 .

[Monica21]

tool_bot wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

tool_bot wrote...
Another reason she dies, she's to loyal to the old guard.

Terribly sorry Cauthrien but you've just demonstrated what having you around is going to be like. And I kinda don;t like being tortured. So... here's hoping next time you keep your emotions in check when dealing with people who've stared down the monsters your gran used to scare you with.

I don't know a nicer way to say this, but that's stupid. The persuade check is something like "don't you see what Loghain has become?" If you pass, she stands down, essentially agreeing with you, but asking you to spare him.

I can't help but wonder how many times you've actually played the game.

You'll notice I've also mentioned I feel bad about letting her live when I'm going to kill Loghain anyway. 

edit: not that you're interested but I've completed maybe 10 runthroughs of which 5 or 6 were mages. Never done the human Origin and I've yet to do the Dalish on the PC. The actual Landsmeet itself I mostly hit esc through because I never got over my initial reaction on the 360 to just feed the country to the darkspawn and nothing made me hate Ferelden more then listening to its nobles. (I won my first time up by promising to make Anora Queen. Plan was to wed her to Alistair. Didn't work out to well.)

If you feel so bad about it, then why not let her live? Or do you think it's an act of mercy and that she just can't cope after you kill Loghain?

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And why those at the back didn't question their orders?

Practicality mostly. About a hundred men deep, you probably don't even hear or see the signal. By the time you know what's going on everyone in front of you is moving one you and then herd behavior takes over. 

Only person you can ask is the guy next to and he'll probably shrug and keep marching.

All of them could see the beacon and they retreated. Why? Why didn't they ask Loghain? 
Because they follow orders. 

We're dealing with two very different roles. You have the actual infantry men and you have their leaders. The leaders job isn't just to follow orders. They're involved in the actual decision making process and usually have access to information the lessers don't. And because they're actually involved in the decision making process they bear a greater amount of responsibility then their piers.

[Sarah1281]

What, exactly, do you think would have happened if Cauthrien refused to tell the troops to move out?

[Monica21]

tool_bot wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And why those at the back didn't question their orders?

Practicality mostly. About a hundred men deep, you probably don't even hear or see the signal. By the time you know what's going on everyone in front of you is moving one you and then herd behavior takes over. 

Only person you can ask is the guy next to and he'll probably shrug and keep marching.

All of them could see the beacon and they retreated. Why? Why didn't they ask Loghain? 
Because they follow orders. 

We're dealing with two very different roles. You have the actual infantry men and you have their leaders. The leaders job isn't just to follow orders. They're involved in the actual decision making process and usually have access to information the lessers don't. And because they're actually involved in the decision making process they bear a greater amount of responsibility then their piers.

You do remember that Cauthrien never questioned the retreat, right? She only questioned if they should make an attempt to find and rescue the king.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tool_bot wrote...
Practicality mostly. About a hundred men deep, you probably don't even hear or see the signal. By the time you know what's going on everyone in front of you is moving one you and then herd behavior takes over. 

Only person you can ask is the guy next to and he'll probably shrug and keep marching.

All of them knew who they are abandoning. Thus all of them are guilty of not questioning their order. Thus all of them have to die, with that logic. 

We're dealing with two very different roles. You have the actual infantry men and you have their leaders. The leaders job isn't just to follow orders. They're involved in the actual decision making process and usually have access to information the lessers don't. And because they're actually involved in the decision making process they bear a greater amount of responsibility then their piers.

Except Cauthrien is not a leader. She is a Knight under Loghain's service. 
Cauthrien is not as involved in the decision making process.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:38 .

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...
If you feel so bad about it, then why not let her live? Or do you think it's an act of mercy and that she just can't cope after you kill Loghain?

I really don't know. It's just how I felt after my first playthrough when I got her to stand down and accidently got Loghain killed anyway. Never managed to shake that feeling too so I usually let her die and imagine she goes down filled with righteous fury defending her homeland and lord.

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All of them knew who they are abandoning. Thus all of them are guilty of not questioning their order. Thus all of them have to die, with that logic.

I'm not defending what was originally said, just pointing out Cauthrien's role isn't the same as those under her.

Except Cauthrien is not a leader. She is a Knight under Loghain's service. That's it.
Cauthrien is not involved in the decision making process at all.  

Really? I always pictured her as something like a sncoic, not really an officer but still... I dunno, nvm. 

She did what she was told to do and that's all you can expect from a soldier.

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...
You do remember that Cauthrien never questioned the retreat, right? She only questioned if they should make an attempt to find and rescue the king.

I don't particularly care what she did. I was just trying to point out how her role wasn't the same as, like in the example I used, some random infantryman in the far back of the formation.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What, exactly, do you think would have happened if Cauthrien refused to tell the troops to move out?

She probably would have joined my ranks on Ferelden's most wanted list and some one else would have given the order.

What's your point?

[Monica21]

tool_bot wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
You do remember that Cauthrien never questioned the retreat, right? She only questioned if they should make an attempt to find and rescue the king.

I don't particularly care what she did. I was just trying to point out how her role wasn't the same as, like in the example I used, some random infantryman in the far back of the formation.

Actually, you do care what she did. You said she was the only one in position to see what Loghain saw and speak her mind. You assume that she should have disagreed with Loghain's decision to retreat. Except she didn't.

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...
Actually, you do care what she did. You said she was the only one in position to see what Loghain saw and speak her mind. You assume that she should have disagreed with Loghain's decision to retreat. Except she didn't.

That's not what I meant.

I was trying to show a contrast between what she could do and would know vs what someone else in the formation would know and be able to do.

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What, exactly, do you think would have happened if Cauthrien refused to tell the troops to move out?

She probably would have joined my ranks on Ferelden's most wanted list and some one else would have given the order.

What's your point?

She probably would have died right there if not when she foolishly charged all alone into the massacre. My point is that Cauthrien could not have changed anything by disagreeing with Loghain. Blaming her for not standing up to her superior officer and doing nothing more than foolishly getting herself killed is ridiculous and certainly not something she deserves to die for a year later.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
certainly not something she deserves to die for a year later.

Well people have argued that her insulting you is enough to warrant her death, so I am not sure how useful it would be to convince them about a much larger and pertinent issue. 

[TJPags]

My killing her has nothing to do with Ostagar, personally.  For me to hold that against her, one of two things have to happen:

First, my character has to know about her role there.  None of them do  - they don't see that cutscene, so none of them can actually place her in a position to have done something,  They can speculate, sure, but they can't know.

Second, from a metagame point, while I DO know about it, I have to feel she could have done something, changed Loghain's mind in some way.  I don't think that's possible.  So how can I hold it against her, when there was nothing she could have done?

I confront her because she serves a man my PC is aligned against.  I kill her because she places herself in my way (on his behalf) twice, and because I (personally) have yet to be able to convince her to back off.  Since I haven't gotten her to back down, and I'm not going to back down, she has to die.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
certainly not something she deserves to die for a year later.

Well people have argued that her insulting you is enough to warrant her death, so I am not sure how useful it would be to convince them about a much larger and pertinent issue. 

Probably but the whole reason Cauthrien's culpability at Ostagar came up was because Quill74Pen said that was one of her reasons for killing her.

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
certainly not something she deserves to die for a year later.

Well people have argued that her insulting you is enough to warrant her death, so I am not sure how useful it would be to convince them about a much larger and pertinent issue. 

She's annoying, dismissive and oh yeah, wants to send me to the executioner's block.

Since when isn't that enough for wanting someone dead?