303 réponses à ce sujet

[Quill74Pen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
P.S. My characters have real problems with folks who talk down to them and pretend they've done more with loyalty and honor and whatnot than my characters have. You dare to say that to the Grey Warden who has all but united Ferelden against the Blight?!

But you haven't done that yet, at that point. Infact you could even lose the Landsmeet.  

If I remember correctly, the confrontation with Cauthrien in Howe's estate comes before your characters uncover Loghain and Howe's atrocities in the Elven Alienage, and before you can take what you've uncovered in Howe's dungeon to Eamon and the nobles in the Gnawed Nobel Tavern ...

... but even with that in mind, you're contending that all of what your Grey Warden has done beforehand — all of the quests and sidequests, plus listening to the ever-changing dialogue at your camp with Sandal and his dad as the game progresses — is meaningless, that everything hinges around just the Landsmeet?

Quill74Pen

[Quill74Pen]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
P.S. My characters have real problems with folks who talk down to them and pretend they've done more with loyalty and honor and whatnot than my characters have. You dare to say that to the Grey Warden who has all but united Ferelden against the Blight?!

But you haven't done that yet, at that point. Infact you could even lose the Landsmeet.  

Not only that, but you're there to try and remove Loghain as Regent, her immediate superior and the man who drove the Orlesians out of Ferelden. Up to the Landsmeet, you've really only been running errands.

I see. The people of Ferelden live in an information vacuum, then. No word whatsoever has reached them about your Grey Warden's heroice accomplishments leading up to the Landsmeet? Y'know, little things such as resolving the centuries-long dispute between the Dalish elves and the werewolves, settling the dwarven royal house in Orzammar, saving not only Eamon, but Redcliffe as well and so on.

Yes, those sound very much like errands to me, no different than running down to the store to buy a gallon of milk and some cookies to go with it.

Quill74Pen

P.S. Also, you're contending that Cauthrien is loyal to the point that she's wearing blinders to Loghain's more questionable decisions? Loyalty is nice, indeed, but blind loyalty is a bad thing. Cauthrien isn't stupid, according to her codex entry, yet her actions and decisions seem to debase that argument — all because of blind loyalty.

[seren2]

In the discussion about Ser Cauthrien and to surrender or not....
I think the best reason to surender, aside from getting Anora out and the part about proving Loghains lies, is......

The comedic escape plans of your companions trying to get you out of prison.....
I am not sure which had me in stiches more, Leliana and Morigan or Sten and Ohgren !
And add the dog in for some really funny lines ...... 
Especially with Morigan!

Personally, I would of liked an option to recruit her. She is a cool character. But barring that, it would of been cool to see her in action on the roof.

Modifié par seren2, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:39 .

[Quill74Pen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...

Sarah1281:

Fine. She dies each and every time. On top of that, she, too, abandoned King Cailen, his army and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar. "Oh, I was just following orders!" doesn't cut it. There are times in one's life when you stand against authority, damn the consequences, because authority — be it secular, religious or business — isn't always right.

Quill74Pen

If she had done that then who knows what Loghain would have done to her but he most definitely would have left anyway. He just would have been the one to say 'move out' like Cauthrien did. Her defying him wouldn't have saved anybody and might have cost her her own life.

I see. So Cauthrien better served King Cailen, et al., by saving her own hide. It's precisely that attitude that leads to so much trouble in the world.

To me, the Cauthrien described in her codex entry doesn't match the Cauthrien the Grey Warden encounters. Perhaps at one time she was, indeed, all about justice and pulling herself up by her bootstraps. But somewhere along the way, she lost that aspect and became, to me, nothing more than a yeswoman to Loghain.

Quill74Pen

[Quill74Pen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
Fine. She dies each and every time. On top of that, she, too, abandoned King Cailen, his army and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar. "Oh, I was just following orders!" doesn't cut it. There are times in one's life when you stand against authority, damn the consequences, because authority — be it secular, religious or business — isn't always right.

So, are you willing to kill all of Loghain's men that also "abandoned" the king? Because they too just followed orders and apparently that does't cut it for you. Afterall, the entire army should have stood against Loghain's authority and went head long into their doom because it's the "right" thing to do. 

Are they all officers? No. Can they all see what's going on (after all, the formation is rather big)? No.

And who said anything about heading headlong into their doom? The battle certainly was a lost cause, no disagreement there, but have you ever heard of rearguard actions? No? Well, that's where a retreating force leaves assets behind to defend its rear as it pulls back toward more defensible positions. Loghain most certainly could have employed this rather common military practice and, at the very least, given King Cailen, Duncan and the Grey Wardens and the rest of the army at Ostagar a fighting chance to get the hell out of there and live to take on the darkspawn another day.

But, no, he didn't do that. He left them all to die. And Cauthrien was his righthand commander.

Quill74Pen

[errant_knight]

I used to talk Ser Cautherin down at the Landsmeet, but in my last few playthroughs, I've just killed her. The look on her face when Loghain orders the retreat make it clear that she doesn't feel right about that, but she makes no objection at all. We can find out at the Landsmeet that she knows about everything that's been going on, but again goes along with it out of loyalty. She puts that loyalty above everything, becoming an accomplice, if one who has regrets.

[Wulfram]

As long as Cauthrien takes out a fair share of Darkspawn in the final battle - which I assume she does, even if she doesn't seem to turn up anywhere in the game - she can be as rude as she likes.

[nos_astra]

I kill Cauthrien at Howe's Estate. Deserved or not, my Warden can't afford to be captured and thrown into prison. Cauthrien is in the wrong place at the wrong time and dies there.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

That cow tried to arrest me when rescuing the queen so...too bad, you just got decapitated, ****.

Oh yes! What a cow she is for attempting to arrest you for murdering an Arl in his home! The fact that Howe is a complete monster totally makes your actions of breaking into his home and killing him legal! The fact that if you bring up that you're trying to save Anora she denies it and Cauthrien doesn't believe the word of the outlawed Arl-murderer over the queen's is just further proof that she's a stupid **** and needs to die.

Howe is guilty of murdering my very own blood thus I am allowed to take his life as well. He further imprisoned fellow Grey Wardens, which is considered an act of high treason as well, and other nobles. 

That fool did not want to listen to my view of the history but rather blindly believe in what she considers "right" and decided to attack me. It was her who initiated the fight thus she is fully responsible for her own death. 

I wish that there would have been another way than killing her in this situation, but unfortunately, it is impossible to avoid a fight or be a coward and get imprisoned thus someone has to lose her head.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:59 .

[Persephone]

Quill74Pen wrote...

Sarah1281:

Fine. She dies each and every time. On top of that, she, too, abandoned King Cailen, his army and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar. "Oh, I was just following orders!" doesn't cut it. There are times in one's life when you stand against authority, damn the consequences, because authority — be it secular, religious or business — isn't always right.

Quill74Pen

WOW. So Loghain deserves execution for disobeying (insane) orders by a glory-hound fool (Cailan) and Cauthrien deserves execution because she actually followed her superior's command. Interesting......

[Persephone]

falloutseriesfan wrote...

I hate Cauthrien. She's a b**** who deserves to die after acting all high and mighty to my MHN.

If that were true, every person who's ever been rude deserves death. Er, not so much.

[Persephone]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

That cow tried to arrest me when rescuing the queen so...too bad, you just got decapitated, ****.

Oh yes! What a cow she is for attempting to arrest you for murdering an Arl in his home! The fact that Howe is a complete monster totally makes your actions of breaking into his home and killing him legal! The fact that if you bring up that you're trying to save Anora she denies it and Cauthrien doesn't believe the word of the outlawed Arl-murderer over the queen's is just further proof that she's a stupid **** and needs to die.

Howe is guilty of murdering my very own blood thus I am allowed to take his life as well. He further imprisoned fellow Grey Wardens, which is considered an act of high treason as well

Imprisoning Riordan is a lot. But it is not high treason. The Grey Wardens aren't royalty.

[Persephone]

And as for Cauthrien owing your Warden respect for your heroic deeds, that really depends on the playthrough. The Warden can do things that are WORSE than what Howe&Loghain did & still be the effin' hero of Ferelden. Elven genocide. Using the slaves' life force to get stronger. Letting Redcliffe rot. Murdering the population of an entire village. Use an anvil requiring souls to make your army stronger. ETC. ETC.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Imprisoning Riordan is a lot. But it is not high treason. The Grey Wardens aren't royalty.

I might have expressed that wrong. I, personally, consider it being high treason, I am aware of the fact that it is not "classic" high treason.

[ejoslin]

ugabug wrote...

I remember reading on these forums before that you need 35 cunning along with the 4 coercion ranks to persuade her to stand down.

That is wrong -- you NEVER need that kind of high cunning, though the higher your cunning the fewer ranks you need (25 cunning = 1 rank of persuasion).  4 ranks is enough for anything even without crazy high cunning.  However, it's bugged.  It checks for high poison rather than very high persuade.  It's a data entry error.

Edit: They're right next to each other on the drop down list.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 octobre 2010 - 12:59 .

[Monica21]

Quill74Pen wrote...
I see. The people of Ferelden live in an information vacuum, then. No word whatsoever has reached them about your Grey Warden's heroice accomplishments leading up to the Landsmeet? Y'know, little things such as resolving the centuries-long dispute between the Dalish elves and the werewolves, settling the dwarven royal house in Orzammar, saving not only Eamon, but Redcliffe as well and so on.

What do you think you're hearing rumors about? Better yet, check a tavern, listen to gossip, or talk to Bodahn. They'll talk about a bastard prince, and Eamon, but what you hear the most about is gossip from the war, which Loghain is winning.  Nobody much gives a damn about the Dalish and even less so about your heroic resolution of a centuries-long dispute. Nobody cares about Orzammar except what they can offer in trade. Even Old Tegrin can't be bothered to go back. They hear about Eamon, but they also talk about Eamon not about your awesome Grey Warden.

So, what is it that you've done, exactly? Nice things, but you're doing other people's dirty work for them. "I can't help you unless you do clear out the Tower, nevermind these heavily armored Templars; go kill Witherfang, because I'm too stubborn to remove the curse; oh, and please head into the Dead Trenches to find a Paragon for me because I don't mind risking you, but I sure as hell don't want to risk any of my house." Redcliffe is the worst example of errand-running, because Teagan can easily take over Redcliffe's armies with Eamon indisposed. He does not have to wait for the Arl to be cured to step up.

Yes, those sound very much like errands to me, no different than running down to the store to buy a gallon of milk and some cookies to go with it.

Pretty much, except you kill a few ogres along the way.

P.S. Also, you're contending that Cauthrien is loyal to the point that she's wearing blinders to Loghain's more questionable decisions? Loyalty is nice, indeed, but blind loyalty is a bad thing. Cauthrien isn't stupid, according to her codex entry, yet her actions and decisions seem to debase that argument — all because of blind loyalty.

What decisions do you think Cauthrien is aware of? She's certainly aware of Ostagar, and whether that is questionable is highly debatable. She's also aware that you broke into Howe's estate, murdered him in his home, and had the Queen in your custody when you were arrested. What do you think she's aware of beyond that?

[Elhanan]

My mages generally kill all the troops at Howe's estate using SotC, and battle Ser C alone. Most of the others also do battle at the estate, while a couple have taken the Escape quest instead.

But my 2H HNF was based on this character as she is generally the toughest oppenent met in the game. I went into the game with the mindset of admiration and imitation, then after all of the initial meeting in Denerim, this turns into deadly opposition. I then meet Ser C twice; once at the estate, then am captured by her troops, and then encounter her again at the Landsmeet.

I have yet to try and talk her oout of the confrontation.

[mousestalker]

I like Cauthrien. She's a well drawn example of a good person who is serving the wrong cause.



In game I tend to surrender but that's because I enjoy escaping or jailbreaking so much.

[blothulfur]

Whether Cauthrien is a villain or not (and personally I dont think she is) all my characters know is that she serves a man who left the grey wardens to die, left troops in lothering to kill me, hired an antivan crow to kill me and raised an oily amoral snake to high office. Now she may just be doing her job and you may look like the guilty party but seriously are you just going to surrender to her and trust that you will get fair treatment. Daddy Ulfur didn't raise stupid pups. (for the record I usually spare loghain as who would waste such a general, so this is not an I hate loghain thing).

[Wulfram]

What decisions do you think Cauthrien is aware of? She's certainly aware of Ostagar, and whether that is questionable is highly debatable. She's also aware that you broke into Howe's estate, murdered him in his home, and had the Queen in your custody when you were arrested. What do you think she's aware of beyond that?

Her answers when you're talking to her at the landsmeet don't sound to me like she was unaware of the Alienage slavers, or the torture at Howe's.  I'd certainly expect her to know as much about Loghain's actions as anyone

[Sarah1281]

I see. The people of Ferelden live in an information vacuum, then. No word whatsoever has reached them about your Grey Warden's heroice accomplishments leading up to the Landsmeet? Y'know, little things such as resolving the centuries-long dispute between the Dalish elves and the werewolves, settling the dwarven royal house in Orzammar, saving not only Eamon, but Redcliffe as well and so on.

Guess what? Orzammar is a completely different country and the Dalish aren't considered a part of Ferelden either. No one is denying that your Warden has done some cool things but none of that has united Ferelden. Saving Eamon, a man who immediately becomes a leading figure in the civil war, doesn't do much for unification either.

I see. So Cauthrien better served King Cailen, et al., by saving her own hide. It's precisely that attitude that leads to so much trouble in the world.

Do you really think that Cailan would have bene 'better served' if he got crushed by an ogre AFTER Cauthrien had gotten herself killed defying Loghain and, if he didn't kill/incapacitate her, charging alone down to the battle? She couldn't have saved him. On hre own, it was impossible. Expecting such suicidal stupidity from her is unreasonable.

Loghain most certainly could have employed this rather common military practice and, at the very least, given King Cailen, Duncan and the Grey Wardens and the rest of the army at Ostagar a fighting chance to get the hell out of there and live to take on the darkspawn another day.

They were on the FRONT LINES. Leaving behind a token force to make the retreat easier wouldn't have helped them at all.

Howe is guilty of murdering my very own blood thus I am allowed to take his life as well. He further imprisoned fellow Grey Wardens, which is considered an act of high treason as well, and other nobles.



That fool did not want to listen to my view of the history but rather blindly believe in what she considers "right" and decided to attack me. It was her who initiated the fight thus she is fully responsible for her own death.



I wish that there would have been another way than killing her in this situation, but unfortunately, it is impossible to avoid a fight or be a coward and get imprisoned thus someone has to lose her head.

If you're a HN which is no guarentee. Plus, from what the conversation when you try to claim blood rights indicates, it has to be announced and done with a bit more legality than 'I see you, you die' which is what it was. Imprisoning a GW is not, in fact, treason. Why would it be? You can consider wearing red to be high treason and it doesn't make it so. You can feel free to consider it morally repugnant and crossing all sorts of lines but treason is about legality not morality. Imprisoning a noble would get him in trouble, yes, but just because he breaks the law every time he turns around doesn't make your actions legal. As such, arresting you is also legal. It might be a horrible idea for you and you can't afford to let it happen but that doesn't make it legal and so I don't see that Cauthrien DESERVES to die for what she does. Maybe she needs to anyway because you don't have much of an option, but it doesn't make Cauthrien stupid or deserving of death.

[Xilizhra]

Insulting you is actually among the worst things a video game character can do to you, so I suppose it's understandable to want to kill them for that, or at least just make their pixels go away and not talk to you anymore. That said, I don't blame her for it; she's not arrogant so much as extremely loyal.

Also, retreating from a lost battle isn't exactly the Holocaust; a "moral" defiance of orders would be badly out of place, to say the least.

I wish that there would have been another way than killing her in this situation, but unfortunately, it is impossible to avoid a fight or be a coward and get imprisoned thus someone has to lose her head.

Just escape. Much less bloodshed that way, and it's hardly "cowardice" to want to not fight when peaceful means will accomplish just as much.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:27 .

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

What decisions do you think Cauthrien is aware of? She's certainly aware of Ostagar, and whether that is questionable is highly debatable. She's also aware that you broke into Howe's estate, murdered him in his home, and had the Queen in your custody when you were arrested. What do you think she's aware of beyond that?

Her answers when you're talking to her at the landsmeet don't sound to me like she was unaware of the Alienage slavers, or the torture at Howe's.  I'd certainly expect her to know as much about Loghain's actions as anyone

The slavery thing was a secret. Anora probably knows just what the 'unrest' is but she's the freaking queen. Everyone else is shocked to hear this. Expecting her to have common knowledge doesn't include that.

[Xilizhra]

I do wonder how much Loghain confided in Cauthrien... probably not a lot, as he seems like a very private person and he wouldn't want to damage Cauthrien's loyalty (which happened anyway). She may have known about Loghain's actions and their rationale, but was deeply uncomfortable with them.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 The slavery thing was a secret. Anora probably knows just what the 'unrest' is but she's the freaking queen. Everyone else is shocked to hear this. Expecting her to have common knowledge doesn't include that.

Cauthrien's response to being told about the slavery is to try to justify it, not to deny it.  To me, that implies she was aware of it.