303 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

She further accepts if not welcomes the cowardish murder of the Warden's family. Seriously, she even accepts killing children as being a legit way to gain might. Sounds like a trustworthy person to me.

...How do you figure that? She's a knight, nothing more and nothing less. She works under Loghain. Loghain did not perpetuate the Cousland massacre. Loghain did not lead a purge on the Alienage. Howe did both of those. Cauthrien does not work for Howe.

[FellowerOfOdin]

She couldn't possibly have done anything about Howe's actions at Highever or the Ostagar debacle; I personally don't think Loghain did anything wrong at Ostagar anyway, and Highever was nowhere near Cauthrien's sphere of influence. And at Howe's estate, Cauthrien was under orders to arrest you; I doubt she'd ever back down from a direct order. At the Landsmeet, she seems to be acting of her own accord, and so wouldn't need to worry about disobedience.

She could have quit anytime. By not doing so, she accepts all those...measures and faces the consequences.

Sarah1281 wrote...

She further accepts if not welcomes the cowardish murder of the Warden's family. Seriously, she even accepts killing children as being a legit way to gain might. Sounds like a trustworthy person to me.

...How do you figure that? She's a knight, nothing more and nothing less. She works under Loghain. Loghain did not perpetuate the Cousland massacre. Loghain did not lead a purge on the Alienage. Howe did both of those. Cauthrien does not work for Howe.

Excuse me, but are you seriously trying to say that she did not know of what Howe did to the Warden's family? 

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Xilizhra]

She's loyal to Loghain personally. Reasonably, it takes time for her to get past that and ultimately stand down. She has many reasons in her past to support Loghain; I think you're putting unrealistic expectations on her.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Would you also consider someone being wrong or "evil" if he decided to kill a dictator? I certainly wouldn't.

Did I say that killing Howe was wrong or "evil"? No. I said it was ILLEGAL. Cauthrien is trying to legally arrest you. Your purposes aren't compatible and you may decide not to risk getting arrested. All I'm saying is she has the law on her side and trying to enforce the law isn't something that causes her to DESERVE death.

And I think my comparison works just fine. You want to consider something treason that isn't and I said that someone else might consider something less serious to be treason and, guess what, it still isn't. Treason isn't about ethics. It's a legal matter.

That depends on what you consider being the current law. Ferelden is in a civil war and Loghain rules because he took the crown of Cailan's cold hands. His order to arrest the Warden is based on a lie and would heavily weaken the whole country - in fact, it would kill everyone in Ferelden as there would be nobody to kill the archdemon. Loghain made up his "rights" and that does not make those laws "real". And I guess we can agree that Howe is evil

And no, your comparison still does not work. You compare apples to oranges.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, Loghain is the legal regent; there's no getting around the fact that the law is on his side. The Landsmeet can kick him out, obviously, but it's their job to decide legitimacy, not yours.

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, Loghain is the legal regent; there's no getting around the fact that the law is on his side. The Landsmeet can kick him out, obviously, but it's their job to decide legitimacy, not yours.

This. And blaming Cauthrien for "endorsing" the Cousland massacre is ludicrous. Nobody seems to care about it very much throughout Ferelden, including most of the nobles.

[Sarah1281]

Excuse me, but are you seriously trying to say that she did not know of what Howe did to the Warden's family?

She may or may not have. Nobody is really sure what happened. There are just rumors and I doubt Howe was bragging to his allies about what he did. Also, even if she did know what did you expect her to do? Insist on trying to murder Howe herself? He had too much power to be touched politically and brought to justice that way by a mere knight. Resign from Ferelden's service because Howe is evil?

That depends on what you consider being the current law. Ferelden is in a civil war and Loghain rules because he took the crown of Cailan's cold hands. His order to arrest the Warden is based on a lie and would heavily weaken the whole country - in fact, it would kill everyone in Ferelden as there would be nobody to kill the archdemon. Loghain made up his "rights" and that does not make those laws "real". And I guess we can agree that Howe is evil



And no, your comparison still does not work. You compare apples to oranges.

But Cauthrien shows up to arrest you for something you actually DID do: killing Howe. Do you really think that murdering an Arl is legal? If it is then Howe's actions killing a Teyrn would have to be similarly legal.



Fine, forget that comparison. The only reason I even made it was because treason is a legally defined crime. If you feel that something is so morally wrong that you think it SHOULD be treason but it isn't defined as treason then it ISN'T.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
But Cauthrien shows up to arrest you for something you actually DID do: killing Howe. Do you really think that murdering an Arl is legal? If it is then Howe's actions killing a Teyrn would have to be similarly legal. 

It's a war.  Legality sort of gets tossed out the window.  And as I said upthread, it also is highly dependent on your view of Loghain's regency.

[Addai]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, Loghain is the legal regent; there's no getting around the fact that the law is on his side. The Landsmeet can kick him out, obviously, but it's their job to decide legitimacy, not yours.

No he's not.  As you point out, he proclaimed himself regent without the legitimacy of a Landsmeet, and thus put the whole conflict on the footing of might makes right.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 But Cauthrien shows up to arrest you for something you actually DID do: killing Howe. Do you really think that murdering an Arl is legal? If it is then Howe's actions killing a Teyrn would have to be similarly legal.

You are acting in defence of, and under the orders of, the Queen.  I reckon that gives you legal cover.  Though of course Cauthrien doesn't know that.

It's possible Ferelden allows some sort right of vengeance, too, if you're a Cousland.  At least, there's an option to talk about claiming "blood rights", whatever that means.

[Xilizhra]

Addai67 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, Loghain is the legal regent; there's no getting around the fact that the law is on his side. The Landsmeet can kick him out, obviously, but it's their job to decide legitimacy, not yours.

No he's not.  As you point out, he proclaimed himself regent without the legitimacy of a Landsmeet, and thus put the whole conflict on the footing of might makes right.

I still don't think it's the Warden's place to make judgments about Loghain's legitimacy.

[Giggles_Manically]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 But Cauthrien shows up to arrest you for something you actually DID do: killing Howe. Do you really think that murdering an Arl is legal? If it is then Howe's actions killing a Teyrn would have to be similarly legal.

You are acting in defence of, and under the orders of, the Queen.  I reckon that gives you legal cover.  Though of course Cauthrien doesn't know that.

It's possible Ferelden allows some sort right of vengeance, too, if you're a Cousland.  At least, there's an option to talk about claiming "blood rights", whatever that means.

No it dosent.

You are a Warden, not a Cousland anymore you have no rights to walk into a mans home and murder him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
I still don't think it's the Warden's place to make judgments about Loghain's legitimacy.

Considering that it's "either you or him the men will follow", I'd say yes.
Legally speaking, the warden has no say. De facto however, everyone knows you are the key player in the Landsmeet on Eamon's side.

[Xilizhra]

I meant as a decision to make while facing off against Cauthrien in Howe's estate, not during the Landsmeet duel.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

I meant as a decision to make while facing off against Cauthrien in Howe's estate, not during the Landsmeet duel.

Even then, you can decide that Loghain is illegimitate and by extension, so is Cauthrien.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No it dosent.

You are a Warden, not a Cousland anymore you have no rights to walk into a mans home and murder him.

It was not murder; just an accident. I pulled my family sword and shield in defense and they just went off....

[Wulfram]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No it dosent.

You are a Warden, not a Cousland anymore you have no rights to walk into a mans home and murder him.

I trust you can cite the relevant case law?

It's not really possible to be categoric about the legality of many acts when we know next to nothing about Ferelden law.

[Addai]

Xilizhra wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, Loghain is the legal regent; there's no getting around the fact that the law is on his side. The Landsmeet can kick him out, obviously, but it's their job to decide legitimacy, not yours.

No he's not.  As you point out, he proclaimed himself regent without the legitimacy of a Landsmeet, and thus put the whole conflict on the footing of might makes right.

I still don't think it's the Warden's place to make judgments about Loghain's legitimacy.

You spend the whole game doing just that.  Facing Cauthrien and her archers is a little late to decide you've got too many scruples to dirty your hands in a civil war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
It's not really possible to be categoric about the legality of many acts when we know next to nothing about Ferelden law.

Cauthrien charges you with the murder of Howe. I think she is citing a law there. Probabyl as an excuse to get you, but she is still telling you the reason and putting you udner arrest for it. 

[Elhanan]

Wulfram wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No it dosent.

You are a Warden, not a Cousland anymore you have no rights to walk into a mans home and murder him.

I trust you can cite the relevant case law?

It's not really possible to be categoric about the legality of many acts when we know next to nothing about Ferelden law.

True; that. For instance, if you meet Vaughn, you can discover it is not truly Howe's home as the previous owners are still alive. Well, for a little longer anyway.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No it dosent.

You are a Warden, not a Cousland anymore you have no rights to walk into a mans home and murder him.

I dunno, the irony of this statement simply explodes itself.

Going off the dialogue choice about blood rights, you do actually have legal basis to chop Howe's head off.  There must be some remnant of blood feud in Fereldan common law.

Regardless, it's a war, people.  Howe and Loghain and Cauthrien are on the other side, they are trying to kill you, pardon me if I do not sit down and thumb through the legal tomes while faced with certain torture and death at their hands.

[Wulfram]

How does Cauthrien even know you've killed Howe, anyway?

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No it dosent.

You are a Warden, not a Cousland anymore you have no rights to walk into a mans home and murder him.

I dunno, the irony of this statement simply explodes itself.

Going off the dialogue choice about blood rights, you do actually have legal basis to chop Howe's head off.  There must be some remnant of blood feud in Fereldan common law.

Regardless, it's a war, people.  Howe and Loghain and Cauthrien are on the other side, they are trying to kill you, pardon me if I do not sit down and thumb through the legal tomes while faced with certain torture and death at their hands.

 What your saying is not that Cauthrien deserved death for her actions but that it had to happen because you're enemies and she won't let you leave peacefully. The legality of both sides' actions only came up when people kept insisting that, in addition to deserving to die for being rude and not personally rescuing Cailan, Cauthrien deserved to die for daring to get want to put the almighty Warden under arrest for a murder they did, in fact, commit.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

How does Cauthrien even know you've killed Howe, anyway?

Bad writing most likely.

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

How does Cauthrien even know you've killed Howe, anyway?

That's where the 'Anora was trying to get you arrested for one reason or another and had Erlina run off and tell on you' theory comes from.