303 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

How does Cauthrien even know you've killed Howe, anyway?

That's where the 'Anora was trying to get you arrested for one reason or another and had Erlina run off and tell on you' theory comes from.

But Cauthrien seems genuinely surprised that Anora was there.

I don't know how Anora played it (if indeed she did), but it's making me warm inside

[Elhanan]

Wulfram wrote...

How does Cauthrien even know you've killed Howe, anyway?

Prearranged signal via that open window; set the curtains on fire, and the guards fled to safety. Hey! If it works once....

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
What your saying is not that Cauthrien deserved death for her actions but that it had to happen because you're enemies and she won't let you leave peacefully. The legality of both sides' actions only came up when people kept insisting that, in addition to deserving to die for being rude and not personally rescuing Cailan, Cauthrien deserved to die for daring to get want to put the almighty Warden under arrest for a murder they did, in fact, commit.

Well ok, but calling it "murder" is up for debate as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Well ok, but calling it "murder" is up for debate as well.

Is it really?
I mean whether it was justified or not is a completely seperate issue, but you are invading an Arl's home (if not Teyrn of Highever and Arl of Denerim legally, he is still Arl of Amaranthine) and killing him.

Cauthrien seeks to arrest you with this charge. Loghain speaks about senechals judging Howe.
So I don't think this would not be considered murder.

[Elhanan]

Even I agree that the charge of murder is sound - though she certainly got there quickly, as I snapped his head just a few minutes before - but that charge still must be proven legally.

However, taking the Warden to Ft. Draken to be tortured might be outside the laws; uncertain. But it would seem that surviving all this is enough time for the majority of Ferelden to consider this a little more severe than a Mabari killing rats in the larder.

[Xilizhra]

Was there any evidence that the Warden was going to be tortured? Howe was the torture-happy one, and he's, well, dead. And Loghain didn't bother to defend his actions at all, just saying that Howe would be judged by the Maker; I don't think Loghain was behind the torture, but he knew that overt defensiveness would make him look bad.

[tool_bot]

Xilizhra wrote...

None of them ever gave you a chance to talk them down in the first place, though; Cauthrien has. It's totally possible to get through this without violence, or at least try to do so, unless your Warden is a few bricks short of a wall.

So I'm not going to be able to justify killing Cauthrien to you?

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Well ok, but calling it "murder" is up for debate as well.

Is it really?
I mean whether it was justified or not is a completely seperate issue, but you are invading an Arl's home (if not Teyrn of Highever and Arl of Denerim legally, he is still Arl of Amaranthine) and killing him.

Call it what you like but who cares? You're not there to uphold a legal system or whatever, you are there to recruit an army to fight the Blight.

[Elhanan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Was there any evidence that the Warden was going to be tortured? Howe was the torture-happy one, and he's, well, dead. And Loghain didn't bother to defend his actions at all, just saying that Howe would be judged by the Maker; I don't think Loghain was behind the torture, but he knew that overt defensiveness would make him look bad.

The next cut-scene in Fort Draken kinda made me believe I was up next for the rack, stocks, or some such method of 'open debate'. Some say that those are visuals the bodies taken from the HN Origin being displayed; uncertain.

[tool_bot]

Xilizhra wrote...

Was there any evidence that the Warden was going to be tortured?

But you are tortured if you surrender. Or am I remembering the opening scene to Captured wrong?

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Was there any evidence that the Warden was going to be tortured?

But you are tortured if you surrender. Or am I remembering the opening scene to Captured wrong?

I don't believe that you are. You see plenty of torture devices in the opening scene but you aren't shown yourself or Alistair on them and no one ever mentions you being tortured. Plus, Alistair seems a bit too light-hearted when you first wake up for me to believe he was just tortured or his fellow Warden who may or may not be the love of his life was. That said, who knows what would have happened if you hadn't broken out.

[alschemid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't know how Anora played it (if indeed she did), but it's making me warm inside

Could it be some kind of Anora's plan to get the warden confront Howe? Getting Howe killed/arrested somehow, to weaken Loghain or get him out of Howe influence?

[Xilizhra]

tool_bot wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

None of them ever gave you a chance to talk them down in the first place, though; Cauthrien has. It's totally possible to get through this without violence, or at least try to do so, unless your Warden is a few bricks short of a wall.

So I'm not going to be able to justify killing Cauthrien to you?

I don't quite understand why you feel the need to do so. Truth be told, I killed her as well, though I'm quite sure that this is because the Persuade option is buggy because I failed it, even at max coercion.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 I don't believe that you are. You see plenty of torture devices in the opening scene but you aren't shown yourself or Alistair on them and no one ever mentions you being tortured. Plus, Alistair seems a bit too light-hearted when you first wake up for me to believe he was just tortured or his fellow Warden who may or may not be the love of his life was. That said, who knows what would have happened if you hadn't broken out.

Hmm, thought I remembered the guy in the cell next to you mentioning how you got it hard or something. Oh well.

[Wulfram]

Really, both Loghain and Howe need to learn to have people summarily executed, rather than torture them first.

[tool_bot]

Xilizhra wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

So I'm not going to be able to justify killing Cauthrien to you?

I don't quite understand why you feel the need to do so. Truth be told, I killed her as well, though I'm quite sure that this is because the Persuade option is buggy because I failed it, even at max coercion.

My ego demands all my actions be 100% right and just and that all recognize their wisdom.

p.s. Yeah I hate bugs but I'm not opposed to console commands so triggering or meeting requirements for things is never that much of an inconvenience to me.

[tool_bot]

Wulfram wrote...

Really, both Loghain and Howe need to learn to have people summarily executed, rather than torture them first.

Yeah I was wondering about that. It's such a Dr Evil moment, I was kinda wondering if Loghain really had his heart set on my defeat.

[Xilizhra]

Ah well. I see your point, I just disagree. Also, I think Cauthrien is hot as well as possessing an interesting personality, and want her as a female-open LI.

[FellowerOfOdin]

She may or may not have. Nobody is really sure what happened. There are just rumors and I doubt Howe was bragging to his allies about what he did. Also, even if she did know what did you expect her to do? Insist on trying to murder Howe herself? He had too much power to be touched politically and brought to justice that way by a mere knight. Resign from Ferelden's service because Howe is evil?  

Okay, end of discussion. When you even think about the idea of Cuthrien not knowing about Howe's deeds, it really looks like you are more of a Cuthrien fanboy than someone interested in a serious discussion.

 But Cauthrien shows up to arrest you for something you actually DID do: killing Howe. Do you really think that murdering an Arl is legal? If it is then Howe's actions killing a Teyrn would have to be similarly legal.  

First of all, Cuthrien does not know that the Arl is dead, that's impossible. She goes there because Loghain knew what the Warden is up to and told her that the Arl is already dead yet neither Loghain nor Cuthrien have a single proof of Howe's death - even Anora does not know anything about his fate.

Secondly, you still miss the point. Howe killed Teyrn Cousland FIRST, this meaning he killed the HN's father BEFORE the HN kills Howe. As a consequence, the HN has blood right, allowing him to slay the murderer himself as his father and basically the whole family was not sentenced to death by an assembly but murdered for political reasons. It's not THAT hard.

[CalJones]

I don't know what this blood right is but it's not mentioned in game or in Dragon Age lore, so I doubt it'd hold up in court. Thing is, whilst Howe is a sadistic, murdering bastard and definitely has it coming, you're still an intruder in his home and had he killed you, it would have been viewed as self defence. I don't think anyone (players, that is) disputes the fact that his death was a good thing, but technically, it's still murder. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.

As far as Cauthrien knowing goes, Loghain knows you're at Arl Eamon's estate so you can bet your ass that he had the place watched like a hawk and doubtless had spies reporting your every move. My theory is that such a spy saw you enter the estate, ran back to inform Loghain, who then dispatched Cauthrien to deal with it. I am not entirely sure how she knows Howe is dead - perhaps someone heard fighting and guessed the worst after you appeared covered in blood with no Howe in evidence. I don't know. It's a bit of a plot hole, to be honest.

[Wulfram]

CalJones wrote...

I don't know what this blood right is but it's not mentioned in game or in Dragon Age lore, so I doubt it'd hold up in court.

It's potentially mentioned by the PC in game.  Possibly the PC is just nuts, but I'd expect there is something behind it - it's just not clear what and how far it goes.

Thing is, whilst Howe is a sadistic, murdering bastard and definitely has it coming, you're still an intruder in his home and had he killed you, it would have been viewed as self defence. I don't think anyone (players, that is) disputes the fact that his death was a good thing, but technically, it's still murder. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.

You're acting in defence of the Queen and under her orders.  I'm pretty sure that makes it not murder.  Of course, Cauthrien doesn't know this.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...
It's potentially mentioned by the PC in game.  Possibly the PC is just nuts, but I'd expect there is something behind it - it's just not clear what and how far it goes.

Don't the other countries say Fereldans are one bad day away from barbarism. And there was something about them descending from barbarian tribes (which is why they have banns and arls). Maybe blood rights are such a barbarian tradition?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Well ok, but calling it "murder" is up for debate as well.

Is it really?
I mean whether it was justified or not is a completely seperate issue, but you are invading an Arl's home (if not Teyrn of Highever and Arl of Denerim legally, he is still Arl of Amaranthine) and killing him.

Cauthrien seeks to arrest you with this charge. Loghain speaks about senechals judging Howe.
So I don't think this would not be considered murder.

It's wartime.  The queen is being held prisoner and you need the mage to free her.  Howe gets in your way.  "Murder" implies that it isn't justified.

[Addai]

Xilizhra wrote...

Was there any evidence that the Warden was going to be tortured? Howe was the torture-happy one, and he's, well, dead. And Loghain didn't bother to defend his actions at all, just saying that Howe would be judged by the Maker; I don't think Loghain was behind the torture, but he knew that overt defensiveness would make him look bad.

In the opening scene of Captured, there is a pan over people being tortured and those dead from torture.  That can't all be Howe.  It's in Fort Drakon, not his estate.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 octobre 2010 - 02:22 .

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I don't know what this blood right is but it's not mentioned in game or in Dragon Age lore, so I doubt it'd hold up in court. Thing is, whilst Howe is a sadistic, murdering bastard and definitely has it coming, you're still an intruder in his home and had he killed you, it would have been viewed as self defence. I don't think anyone (players, that is) disputes the fact that his death was a good thing, but technically, it's still murder. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.

Yes, blood rights is in the game dialogue, when Loghain, Howe and Cauthrien confront you at Eamon's as a HN.  The PC can say "this man murdered my family, I demand blood rights."  Howe disputes your claim because he says your family were traitors, but no one disputes the idea.

Re. being an intruder in Howe's home, see my reply to KoP above.  When he's holding Anora against her will, that is your justification.  It's not like you went in there simply to kill him.