303 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

She may or may not have. Nobody is really sure what happened. There are just rumors and I doubt Howe was bragging to his allies about what he did. Also, even if she did know what did you expect her to do? Insist on trying to murder Howe herself? He had too much power to be touched politically and brought to justice that way by a mere knight. Resign from Ferelden's service because Howe is evil?  

Okay, end of discussion. When you even think about the idea of Cuthrien not knowing about Howe's deeds, it really looks like you are more of a Cuthrien fanboy than someone interested in a serious discussion.

 To begin with, it should be pretty damn obvious from my username that I'm not a boy. Secondly, I'm not even particularly fond of Cauthrien. I just think that their is a possibility that she's not fully aware of what happened at Highever.

Why do I think this that have nothing to do with me being a mindless fangirl? Because no one but Howe (and his men you don't talk to) seem to be fully aware of what happened. When you try to claim blood rights, either Howe or Loghain mentions something about your family being traitors. Clearly this is not true, but it is the official story. Cauthrien may suspect that this is not true but unless she is psychic or walked by Howe ranting to himself about what really happened then it would only be suspicion.

And you were so peeved about my apparent unreasonableness for daring to disagree wtih you on Cauthrien being fully aware of everything Howe did (and I'm not even arguing she doesn't know what's been going on in Denerim, mind  you, only that she doesn't know what happened in Highever) that you neglected to answer what she should have done since 'her damn job' is apparently not good enough for you.

 But Cauthrien shows up to arrest you for something you actually DID do: killing Howe. Do you really think that murdering an Arl is legal? If it is then Howe's actions killing a Teyrn would have to be similarly legal.  

First of all, Cuthrien does not know that the Arl is dead, that's impossible. She goes there because Loghain knew what the Warden is up to and told her that the Arl is already dead yet neither Loghain nor Cuthrien have a single proof of Howe's death - even Anora does not know anything about his fate.

Secondly, you still miss the point. Howe killed Teyrn Cousland FIRST, this meaning he killed the HN's father BEFORE the HN kills Howe. As a consequence, the HN has blood right, allowing him to slay the murderer himself as his father and basically the whole family was not sentenced to death by an assembly but murdered for political reasons. It's not THAT hard.

I don't care if it's 'impossible.' Cauthrien DOES know you killed Howe. She even says as much the minutes she sees you. "Warden! In the name of the regent, I am placing you under arrest for the murder of Rendon Howe and his men-at-arms." It's her first words to you. She might just be assuming that he's dead and who knows why she was even there in the first place but she still gives this illegal action as the reason she wants to arrest you.

Also, I am working under the assumption that you telling Loghain that Howe killed your family and so you're claiming blood rights instead of feeling free to just stab him right there and then, when no one acknowledges that you have this right, you don't kill him right there anyway that blood rights is a legal custom that allows people (or at least nobles) to kill those that have severely wronged them (how severely is debatable but what Howe did definitely qualifies) but that it order for it to be legal it has to be announced and then approved. What you did was not. It perhaps should have been but it was not making what you did illegal.

All the fact that it was illegal means is that Cauthrien trying to arrest you isn't her being stupid, evil, a cow, a ****, or any other insult you can think of. It doesn't mean Howe didn't deserve it. It doesn't mean that had you waited and asked the Landsmeet they wouldn't have granted your claim to blood right. It doesn't mean that they can't legitimize what you did after the fact if need be. It doesn't even mean you should let her arrest you. It just means that she was doing her job.

[Elhanan]

Except that Loghain knows that Howe killed the Couslands, as he was informed by Cailan. So it is likely that Cauthrian knows more than she is letting on at the estate.

However, the charges of murder are valid, and she is within her role as a Knight to the Regent to present them. While it smells like a set-up, it is a well made one.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Except that Loghain knows that Howe killed the Couslands, as he was informed by Cailan. So it is likely that Cauthrian knows more than she is letting on at the estate.
However, the charges of murder are valid, and she is within her role as a Knight to the Regent to present them. While it smells like a set-up, it is a well made one.

Good point but that's still only a claim. The only survivor and Duncan who just arrived and has no idea whether or not the Couslands were trying to sell out to Orlais (which appears to be the story Howe told Loghain) told Cailan that Howe killed everyone for no reason and Cailan told Loghain. Howe tells a very different story and perhaps even fabricated 'proof' of the Cousland treachery.

[Wulfram]

Loghain is crazy enough about Orlesians that he might actually believe Howe, I guess. Particularly since it would be useful to him to do so.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Good point but that's still only a claim. The only survivor and Duncan who just arrived and has no idea whether or not the Couslands were trying to sell out to Orlais (which appears to be the story Howe told Loghain) told Cailan that Howe killed everyone for no reason and Cailan told Loghain. Howe tells a very different story and perhaps even fabricated 'proof' of the Cousland treachery.

Come to think of it, there may be other witnesses of Ostagar events I have overlooked: the Elves. I seem to recall Anora mentioning that the Alienage is more upset than they should be because their losses at Ostagar were small. Now this may only be a stat issue (ie; few Elves serving there, but all were lost), but perhaps the servants and waiting staff at Ostagar did make it out much like Wynne's healed survivors. Just food for thought....

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Good point but that's still only a claim. The only survivor and Duncan who just arrived and has no idea whether or not the Couslands were trying to sell out to Orlais (which appears to be the story Howe told Loghain) told Cailan that Howe killed everyone for no reason and Cailan told Loghain. Howe tells a very different story and perhaps even fabricated 'proof' of the Cousland treachery.

Come to think of it, there may be other witnesses of Ostagar events I have overlooked: the Elves. I seem to recall Anora mentioning that the Alienage is more upset than they should be because their losses at Ostagar were small. Now this may only be a stat issue (ie; few Elves serving there, but all were lost), but perhaps the servants and waiting staff at Ostagar did make it out much like Wynne's healed survivors. Just food for thought....

What does elves possibly surviving Ostagar have to do with what you quoted? The topic of that quote was how much Cauthrien knows about Highever.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Except that Loghain knows that Howe killed the Couslands, as he was informed by Cailan. So it is likely that Cauthrian knows more than she is letting on at the estate.
However, the charges of murder are valid, and she is within her role as a Knight to the Regent to present them. While it smells like a set-up, it is a well made one.

Good point but that's still only a claim. The only survivor and Duncan who just arrived and has no idea whether or not the Couslands were trying to sell out to Orlais (which appears to be the story Howe told Loghain) told Cailan that Howe killed everyone for no reason and Cailan told Loghain. Howe tells a very different story and perhaps even fabricated 'proof' of the Cousland treachery.

Is this the story Howe tells?  Where do we learn this?

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Good point but that's still only a claim. The only survivor and Duncan who just arrived and has no idea whether or not the Couslands were trying to sell out to Orlais (which appears to be the story Howe told Loghain) told Cailan that Howe killed everyone for no reason and Cailan told Loghain. Howe tells a very different story and perhaps even fabricated 'proof' of the Cousland treachery.

Come to think of it, there may be other witnesses of Ostagar events I have overlooked: the Elves. I seem to recall Anora mentioning that the Alienage is more upset than they should be because their losses at Ostagar were small. Now this may only be a stat issue (ie; few Elves serving there, but all were lost), but perhaps the servants and waiting staff at Ostagar did make it out much like Wynne's healed survivors. Just food for thought....

What does elves possibly surviving Ostagar have to do with what you quoted? The topic of that quote was how much Cauthrien knows about Highever.

Your only survivor comment ref House Cousland got me to thinking of any others that may have heard comments made by Loghain, Duncan, and the Cousland Warden (eg; guard posted outside the tent, King's guard, Elven runner, etc).

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Except that Loghain knows that Howe killed the Couslands, as he was informed by Cailan. So it is likely that Cauthrian knows more than she is letting on at the estate.
However, the charges of murder are valid, and she is within her role as a Knight to the Regent to present them. While it smells like a set-up, it is a well made one.

Good point but that's still only a claim. The only survivor and Duncan who just arrived and has no idea whether or not the Couslands were trying to sell out to Orlais (which appears to be the story Howe told Loghain) told Cailan that Howe killed everyone for no reason and Cailan told Loghain. Howe tells a very different story and perhaps even fabricated 'proof' of the Cousland treachery.

Is this the story Howe tells?  Where do we learn this?

Well, in Awakening we get this exchange:

[*]Nathaniel: You killed my father.
[*]Warden: Your father killed my family!
[*]Nathaniel: Your family was going to sell us out to the Orlesians!
Presumably Nathaniel got this idea from somewhere. Also, in Origins: 

Cousland: I am <FirstName/> Cousland, teyrn of Highever.
Howe: The Couslands are dead. The teyrn of Highever belongs to the Howes, and rightfully so.
Cousland: I demand blood rights! This man murdered my family!
Howe: You have no rights. Your family surrendered them when I revealed them to be traitors to the king.
Cousland: Prove it to the Landsmeet. They still hang murderers here.
Cauthrien: You are either very bold or very stupid to threaten the teyrn before witnesses.
Loghain: Enough, Cauthrien, this is not the time or place.

And it would appear that if you choose Cousland-specific dialogue then Cauthrien doesn't tell you to shut up because your betters are talking. I think this points to her saying this to a HN being an oversight.

[Wulfram]

TJPags wrote...


Is this the story Howe tells?  Where do we learn this?

At the confrontation with Loghain, Howe and Cauthrien, which triggers just after you agree to go to the Landsmeet

[TJPags]

Hmmm, I didn't get that diologue option . . . .I'm replaying a HN now, maybe I'll try for it.



As for what Nate says in Awakening . . . .I take that with a cocked eyebrow, but it certainly points to at least a rumor to that effect (Nate was out of the country, remember, so could he have had first hand info? Or even second hand from his father? Doubtful)

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...
[*]

Cousland: I am Cousland, teyrn of Highever.
Howe: The Couslands are dead. The teyrn of Highever belongs to the Howes, and rightfully so.
Cousland: I demand blood rights! This man murdered my family!
Howe: You have no rights. Your family surrendered them when I revealed them to be traitors to the king.
Cousland: Prove it to the Landsmeet. They still hang murderers here.
Cauthrien: You are either very bold or very stupid to threaten the teyrn before witnesses.
Loghain: Enough, Cauthrien, this is not the time or place.

 

And suddenly Daylen wants her dead even more. I'll have to rush through this play to to get to those two fights.

Modifié par tool_bot, 09 octobre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

[*]

Cousland: I am Cousland, teyrn of Highever.
Howe: The Couslands are dead. The teyrn of Highever belongs to the Howes, and rightfully so.
Cousland: I demand blood rights! This man murdered my family!
Howe: You have no rights. Your family surrendered them when I revealed them to be traitors to the king.
Cousland: Prove it to the Landsmeet. They still hang murderers here.
Cauthrien: You are either very bold or very stupid to threaten the teyrn before witnesses.
Loghain: Enough, Cauthrien, this is not the time or place.

 

And suddenly Daylen wants her dead even more. I'll have to rush through this play to to get to those two fights.

For what? She's kind of right that publicly threatening Howe in front of witnesses isn't the best idea. Is it because she didn't call him the arl? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think Howe also mentions that the Couslands were traitors when you confront him at his estates. Of course I don't think that was his primary reason at all, but he seems to actually believe that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

Apologies for the gender-mistake, I guess it's just some sort of routine you get on the internet and having a female name does not mean that the person sitting in front of the PC truly is a girl, am I right?

Why do I think this that have nothing to do with me being a mindless fangirl? Because no one but Howe (and his men you don't talk to) seem to be fully aware of what happened. When you try to claim blood rights, either Howe or Loghain mentions something about your family being traitors. Clearly this is not true, but it is the official story. Cauthrien may suspect that this is not true but unless she is psychic or walked by Howe ranting to himself about what really happened then it would only be suspicion.

As stated above, if we assume that Cuthrien is not stupid, she knows exactly about what happened at Highever - she knows about the slaughter that happened there and knows that Howe and his men were responsible for those deeds. Furthermore, at the time when this happened, Cailan was still king so in order to legalize the attack on Highever, it would have been up to Cailan to order everyone to attack the Teyrn. And we all know that the Warden is actually trusted with a very important mission (light the beacon) and treated very well by the king at Ostagar - again, if we assume that Cuthrien is not stupid (and I highly doubt that she is!), she knew exactly that the HN and his family were no traitors...at all. She knew exactly that the HC and his family were no traitors and that her master is obviously lying to her and yet she does not care. 

And you were so peeved about my apparent unreasonableness for daring to disagree wtih you on Cauthrien being fully aware of everything Howe did (and I'm not even arguing she doesn't know what's been going on in Denerim, mind  you, only that she doesn't know what happened in Highever) that you neglected to answer what she should have done since 'her damn job' is apparently not good enough for you.

I did answer that point. At every of the points I stated above, she could have decided to quit and join the good side, she could have tried to discover the truth yet she is not interested in knowing the truth, she wants to believe everything so that she can just do her job.

I don't care if it's 'impossible.' Cauthrien DOES know you killed Howe. She even says as much the minutes she sees you. "Warden! In the name of the regent, I am placing you under arrest for the murder of Rendon Howe and his men-at-arms." It's her first words to you. She might just be assuming that he's dead and who knows why she was even there in the first place but she still gives this illegal action as the reason she wants to arrest you.

No, she does NOT know it. This is impossible. You can't just say that "you don't care that it's impossible" and it suddenly becomes possible. As I stated above, she got the order to go to Howe and "check for him", so that Loghain gets a valid reason to arrest the MC and can rule the landsmeet. At that point, she can only assume what happened, not more, not less - and a mere guess is not enough to actually arrest a noble, let alone a well-known yet mute hero.

Also, I am working under the assumption that you telling Loghain that Howe killed your family and so you're claiming blood rights instead of feeling free to just stab him right there and then, when no one acknowledges that you have this right, you don't kill him right there anyway that blood rights is a legal custom that allows people (or at least nobles) to kill those that have severely wronged them (how severely is debatable but what Howe did definitely qualifies) but that it order for it to be legal it has to be announced and then approved. What you did was not. It perhaps should have been but it was not making what you did illegal.

The HN did announce it when Loghain "suddenly" visits the Eamon. He would not be allowed to kill Howe there either as it was neither his own or his enemy's ground and they were there for diplomatic reasons. Furthermore, it was Howe who attacked the hero first thus it's not even self-defense.

All the fact that it was illegal means is that Cauthrien trying to arrest you isn't her being stupid, evil, a cow, a ****, or any other insult you can think of. It doesn't mean Howe didn't deserve it. It doesn't mean that had you waited and asked the Landsmeet they wouldn't have granted your claim to blood right. It doesn't mean that they can't legitimize what you did after the fact if need be. It doesn't even mean you should let her arrest you. It just means that she was doing her job.

Exactly my point, she was just doing her job. I already stated that this is the reason for her death. Instead of using common sense or even trying to get behind the whole issue to uncover the truth, she just does her job. Her stubbornness and conscientiousness are what really killed her.

Moral of the story: Doing your job is important but it's more important to reflect your actions and use your brain.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:04 .

[CalJones]

Interesting about the blood right dialogue - I've played HNs a few times and I don't think I've ever followed that dialogue branch.

[grillz]

Well threatening Howe in public then finding him dead in his estate is not a good way to go.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 For what? She's kind of right that publicly threatening Howe in front of witnesses isn't the best idea. Is it because she didn't call him the arl? 

Daylen has inferiority issues and a strong disdain for the aristocracy. That Cauthrien would act as its vanguard (without any of the protection society gives its upper class) makes her a convenient outlet for his rage.

[TJPags]

grillz wrote...

Well threatening Howe in public then finding him dead in his estate is not a good way to go.

True, but there's no way he could have been found dead by the time Cauthrien arrests you.

At least, it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Cauthrien could have found his body and gotten back to the door with her men by the time you go from the dungeons to get Anora and then to the door yourself.

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

grillz wrote...

Well threatening Howe in public then finding him dead in his estate is not a good way to go.

True, but there's no way he could have been found dead by the time Cauthrien arrests you.

At least, it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Cauthrien could have found his body and gotten back to the door with her men by the time you go from the dungeons to get Anora and then to the door yourself.

It's possible she'd been sent to follow your activities or that she'd been tailing you for some time. When she learns you're at Howe's estate she concludes you are there to murder the Arl (because you're an evil evil person who's trying to depose Ferelden's true Champion and totally handsome hero) and when she arrives at the scene she finds you leaving covered in blood with a war party. It's pretty obvious what happened, to her at least.

[TJPags]

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

grillz wrote...

Well threatening Howe in public then finding him dead in his estate is not a good way to go.

True, but there's no way he could have been found dead by the time Cauthrien arrests you.

At least, it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Cauthrien could have found his body and gotten back to the door with her men by the time you go from the dungeons to get Anora and then to the door yourself.

It's possible she'd been sent to follow your activities or that she'd been tailing you for some time. When she learns you're at Howe's estate she concludes you are there to murder the Arl (because you're an evil evil person who's trying to depose Ferelden's true Champion and totally handsome hero) and when she arrives at the scene she finds you leaving covered in blood with a war party. It's pretty obvious what happened, to her at least.

Oh, the pieces fit, I grant you.  BUT:

You snuck into the estate disguised as Howe's guards.  She may have tailed you there - unilikely, since she didn't know you were going, but let's say she was watching Eamon's estate - but tailing you while in the estate?  During all those battles, your discussion with the Queen, etc?  That doesn't seem like it would work.  And if she was tailing you, how'd she get back to the door before you?

No, she was guessing, at best, IMO.  She guessed right, of course, and that can easily be confirmed by a character in game after the fact, but she still guessed.

[Elhanan]

My only issue is when I reveal Anora to Cauthrian, and then am betrayed by the Queen. The first time this occured, it took me by surprise. This is also the option I chose later with my HNF; used as motivation to insure that this position on the throne will be vacant at the Landsmeet.

EDIT: There might be a signal when the Queen is released, possibly connected to the Ward that was used on the door?

Modifié par Elhanan, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:31 .

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

Oh, the pieces fit, I grant you.  BUT:

You snuck into the estate disguised as Howe's guards.  She may have tailed you there - unilikely, since she didn't know you were going, but let's say she was watching Eamon's estate - but tailing you while in the estate?  During all those battles, your discussion with the Queen, etc?  That doesn't seem like it would work.  And if she was tailing you, how'd she get back to the door before you?

She doesn't have to do so herself and no one has to follow you all he way in. She's a knight with several men under her charge. She could have easily sent a few to follow your progress and when they saw you come to the home of Rendon Howe he rushed back to his commander and informed her of where you were. Suspecting the worse she'd gather all the men she could (can't be to careful) and set off for the Arl's estate hoping to arrive in time to rescue the innocent Arl. But when she arrives you're there covered in blood leaving and looking triumphant.

[TJPags]

Elhanan wrote...

My only issue is when I reveal Anora to Cauthrian, and then am betrayed by the Queen. The first time this occured, it took me by surprise. This is also the option I chose later with my HNF; used as motivation to insure that this position on the throne will be vacant at the Landsmeet.

I was surprised as well when that happened, but keep in mind - Anora specifically told you NOT to reveal her.  Why?  Could be anything, but we do learn in game that Howe had suggested killing her to Loghain, and that she knew that, and here she was a prisoner of Howe.  She can't be sure she wouldn't be killed, even by Loghain's men, if revealed.

So, her 'betrayal' is justified, since actually, you betrayed her first.

[TJPags]

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, the pieces fit, I grant you.  BUT:

You snuck into the estate disguised as Howe's guards.  She may have tailed you there - unilikely, since she didn't know you were going, but let's say she was watching Eamon's estate - but tailing you while in the estate?  During all those battles, your discussion with the Queen, etc?  That doesn't seem like it would work.  And if she was tailing you, how'd she get back to the door before you?

She doesn't have to do so herself and no one has to follow you all he way in. She's a knight with several men under her charge. She could have easily sent a few to follow your progress and when they saw you come to the home of Rendon Howe he rushed back to his commander and informed her of where you were. Suspecting the worse she'd gather all the men she could (can't be to careful) and set off for the Arl's estate hoping to arrive in time to rescue the innocent Arl. But when she arrives you're there covered in blood leaving and looking triumphant.

true, and very plausible that someone was keeping track of you.

But again, she guesses.  That she is later found to be right doesn't change, it was a guess at the time she makes the accusation.