735 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I don't find a voiced protagonist dumbing down or hand holding either, it does however limit my ability to set my own tone and emotions behind my character, and at the same time due to the way Bioware presents dialog choices by means of paraphrasing, in some ways has the player completely guessing at what their character is going to say. Which to me somewhat diminishes any actual roleplaying being able to take place because you put yourself at the mercy of the writters.

Which actually brings me to support what David Gaider was saying when he said these disagreements come from people speaking different languages.

In my point of view I've always believed that I've been, in CRPGs, at the "mercy" of the writers.  I've explained my views pretty clearly before on how I approach CRPGs as something like choose your own adventure books that only mimic the freedom of tabletop RPGs.  

The problem for me isn't that I can't imagine my character's line delivery - I certainly can - but from my perspective, the consequences of every choice in the game - no matter how small - are predetermined.  So I can't suspend disbelief the way Sylvius the Mad can, at least based on my reading of how he plays these games, and thus - we're approaching the game from a fundamentally different and incompatible perspective.

So, I don't expect people who don't see the game the same way as me to "speak my language" - but it does explain why we all have different priorities and preferences.  I feel like I'm choosing which version of Bioware's story I want told, I don't really view it as my story.  I'd have to actually be writing it for that to be the case.  It's a simple distinction, but it's essentially the core of my opinion on the issue.

the_one_54321 wrote...
You see!? AngryPants! Darth Gaider has spoken.

The pants aren't angry!  The pants make you angry!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[the_one_54321]

David Gaider wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I didn't take the skateboard proficiency in the fifth grade....

(+100 approval with the_one for anyone who gets this refernece)

Sounds like Scott Pilgrim vs. the World to me.

I knew there was a reason I liked you!

[MerinTB]

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
It not only oversimplifies the situation, it drawns unintended political context to the issue at hand, and it generalizes feelings into nice, neat little packages that I doubt many people would actually fit in.

You mean sort of like how everyone who is at all supportive of DA2's direction, or who objects to bashing, is a deliberately obtuse "fanboy" and how everyone who is at all critical of DA2's direction, or who objects to blank cheques being offered to developers, is an entitled "troll"?

Pretty much, yes.  Those labels drive me insane.

Rainbows and kittens, I'm sure, but I wish everyone could come from the stand point that different people have different tastes and different interests and different experiences - and we could look at each person's concerns or compliments as being "not just like everyone else."

I know I'm guilty of lumping people together - it's really hard not to - but I try to correct myself.

And those titles you listed are just as silly as the previous poster's attempt at putting political theory on tastes in game design -
you can easily be a troll in support of DA2, just as you can easily be a fanboy of BioWare who's terrified of what DA2 is.

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Drives me absolutely crazy how people continue to treat this like an either / or situation (almost as much as the ones who state their opinions as if they are the defacto reality - "nobody likes silent protagonists, that's a thing of the past!" or "if you like faster paced action you must be a little kid playing on a console" or whatever)

Relax. Nobody's trying to suggest people need to be divvied up into their categories and forced to wear them like name badges. All AngryPants was offering was a way of identifying some of the different forces at work on the forums and why they tend to argue so much. It's like people speaking different languages and yet who all think they're speaking the same one.

Is it useful? Not really-- nobody's going to stop calling people fanboys or trolls or "telling it like it is"-- but it's also nothing to get up in arms about. Nobody was telling you to buy ranks in Militant Conservatism when you leveled up or anything. You're free to spec however you wish, I'm sure.

I'm MUSHing here - no stats, so no leveling.

I'd say there are many people trying to shoe-horn everyone into one group or another (the "blind all-hate" or "blind all-love" groups.)
Which makes all praise and criticism get dismissed as "it's on the internet, of course there'll be complaints and praising" or whatever.  It cheapens everything.

I can't believe I'm logicking myself into believing that the internet IS actually helping to break down our ability to communicate with each other...

[Monica83]

Immagination can be a great thing you really don't need a voice character when you are building you own.. The problem with the voiced character is that:If we have a voice character its really possible to have a wheel with dialougues of schematic paraprhase systems alla mass effect.. You can add the tone of them but they are again:Schematic paraphrase system with tones.. I like to read what my character its going to say.. So i made no mistakes and i feel myself in to my character.. Its silly when you click a general line and your character tell something you dont wanted to... Mass effect 2 have many example of this.. So... If voiced character have also a schematic general line of answer its NOT an imrpovment...



About Animations:

Maybe they are fixing it but i find them much exagerrated.. In the video i saw i seen lady hawke make a complete twist in a circle with a two handed sword and and it grabbing the huge sword with only a hand..

Personal i don't think that animations are nice.. I found them Silly and Ridicolus.. Ok animation must be improved from origins but the new ones also if they are slowed down are a deep punch in Eye...



About classes:

They decide to streamlize them cutting half ability at the warrior (dual wielding and bow) and put them avaliable only for the rogue whitout any Logic roleplay motivations...Ok see a warrior flipping with a complete plate and two weapons its not cool i accept it...But lol.. In the trailer we saw we see a super lady hawke using a two handed sword like a dagger.. Ok they have slowed down it but the animations are always Inappropriate.. On what?.. On poses.. for example on the way the character moves with an huge sword.. They are ridicolus.. So now the classes are much more static.. Evevin if you upgrade your skills..



In favour:

I like the design of the NPC not much the one of the darkspawn i prefear the old one but i can survive this but its only the one thing positive im thinking about DA2

[NoAngel89]

David Gaider wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
It's a bit early to speculate on how drastically different/similar DA 2 will be to DA:O, don't ya think?

It no doubt is, and until we show more all the speculation is a bit fruitless. And we will show more, obviously, but that's not soon enough for some people-- and thus they'll render Final Judgement based on the information they have at the time, based on the assumption that what they see or think they see is all there is to the game. Anything else is like Shroedinger's Cat and doesn't actually exist.

Origins went through this period, too, and while people will claw their eyes out thinking that it can't possibly happen soon enough ("why isn't it happening RIGHT NOW?? OMG") eventually there will be so much information available you will be absolutely sick of hearing about it.

Not that the opinions will change, necessarily. But it'd be nice to see them backed up by more than ideology.

true, but it didn't take bioware just a year to make a make DAO, it took them 4. They didn't finishs making another squeal for ME2 until three years later after the first. For any production, like for instance, not even a video game Iron man 2, the movie, was release after a production of two years. idk if you know movies, but in studios, that very fast, thats like making a baby run before they can even walk. And they announced the movie to be out even before they had a script. Point is with any project, that made in a short amount of time. Its a no brainer people are going to be concern about it. Now I'm sure all the hard work was already done in those 4 years of production of the original. But almost one year, you guys announce another game to be released. Call me weird to say, that just sounds alittle fishy. Movie based video games, are made in that time window, which why they suck because they dont (other then ill budget) have enough time to develop the game, and fix glitches. Not to say that this game will be. Since you guys are bioware, and you guys are amazing at what you do. I'm just saying, if people are going to be concern about how quickly this squeal is coming, and that it too will have quality. Its obvious for any person to say, yeah thats a pretty universal concern, with any production being made, games too. And this concern isn't just some bullcrap concern, peole are going to have doubts, and for good reason. I'm just stating the time frame, which is just unbiased fact. But then again Iron Man 2 the movie was a hit. I'm sure DA2 probably be the same, video game wise. IF theres a studio that can pull it off, it be you guys

Modifié par NoAngel89, 09 octobre 2010 - 09:06 .

[the_one_54321]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
NWN had single player too though, HoTU was actually a really good sp campaign I thought.

I liked the single player campaign and expansions. But it was the multiplayer that I player nonstop for years. That's where I made up my own personalities with unique names and manerisms and tendencies. I don't see the point in making an alcoholic lecherous elf in a game where none of the characters will even recognize that my character has these traits. (beyond Leliana and Morigan insisting that I make a choice between them) The game has no idea that I'm playing a character like that. Nothing happens. There's no point. In NWN there was tons of purpose. In table top games there are tons of purpose. In DA][ I'll be able to enjoy with or without the ability to make my character into a ladies man that drinks to much wine and cracks jokes an inappropriate times.

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
NWN had single player too though, HoTU was actually a really good sp campaign I thought.

I liked the single player campaign and expansions. But it was the multiplayer that I player nonstop for years. That's where I made up my own personalities with unique names and manerisms and tendencies. I don't see the point in making an alcoholic lecherous elf in a game where none of the characters will even recognize that my character has these traits. (beyond Leliana and Morigan insisting that I make a choice between them) The game has no idea that I'm playing a character like that. Nothing happens. There's no point. In NWN there was tons of purpose. In table top games there are tons of purpose. In DA][ I'll be able to enjoy with or without the ability to make my character into a ladies man that drinks to much wine and cracks jokes an inappropriate times.

*needs to go to bed*

And there are people who can't understand playing a game with a walkthrough or strategy guide on the first play...
and people who will use a strategy guide or walkthrough from the very start of the game.

And there are people who can't stand reading subtitles for movies...
and people who can't stand dubbing for foreign films and always use the sub-titles.

You don't see the point to having a personality for your character in a single player game.  Good on you.
I don't see a point in playing NWN multiplayer.  I tried it several times and it (to me) was about the most boring thing I've ever done.  I can't see the fun in it at all- but that's me.  You enjoyed it, so good on you.

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The pants aren't angry!  The pants make you angry!

Yes, but if I called you ProvocativePants that might make people picture you to be a crotchless set of low-riders, and nobody wants that. Would CreepyPants suffice?

MerinTB wrote...
I can't believe I'm logicking myself into believing that the internet IS actually helping to break down our ability to communicate with each other...

I'll pencil you in as "Militant Navel-Gazer", then, and you can share tips with Sylvius.

Knowing that you are part of that group means all your opinions are now codified, so you needn't speak any longer. Just FYI.

Modifié par David Gaider, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:41 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
NWN had single player too though, HoTU was actually a really good sp campaign I thought.

I liked the single player campaign and expansions. But it was the multiplayer that I player nonstop for years. That's where I made up my own personalities with unique names and manerisms and tendencies. I don't see the point in making an alcoholic lecherous elf in a game where none of the characters will even recognize that my character has these traits. (beyond Leliana and Morigan insisting that I make a choice between them) The game has no idea that I'm playing a character like that. Nothing happens. There's no point. In NWN there was tons of purpose. In table top games there are tons of purpose. In DA][ I'll be able to enjoy with or without the ability to make my character into a ladies man that drinks to much wine and cracks jokes an inappropriate times.

Well the point is for me its fun to do that, to actually role play my character even if no one hears of it or cares. But hey to each their own I suppose.

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...
I don't see a point in playing NWN multiplayer.  I tried it several times and it (to me) was about the most boring thing I've ever done.  I can't see the fun in it at all- but that's me.  You enjoyed it, so good on you.

I don't..... I just..... I.....


I'm not sure what language you're speaking... but either way it's not one I'm familiar with.

[Leonia]

So have we got to the part where we all agree to disagree? I think we've all established that we approach RPGs and even Origins differently. Human beings are unique like that (some might even say we're a lot like snowflakes..). Generalisations are fun and all for a time but at the end of the day we're not going to sit around the campfire and sing together, are we?

We all love Dragon Age so, let's just see what the devs deliver for us in March and then scrutinise it.

You say tomato, I say tomato, but we all put want to douse our chips in what the Americans call Ketchup, right?

Modifié par leonia42, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:43 .

[the_one_54321]

leonia42 wrote...
So have we got to the part where we all agree to disagree? I think we've all established that we approach RPGs and even Origins differently. Human beings are unique like that. Generalisations are fun and all for a time but at the end of the day we're not going to sit around the campfire and sing together, are we?

We all love Dragon Age so, let's just see what the devs deliver for us in March and then scrutinise it.

No! Merin's words about NWN were confusing and hurtful! I can't agree to ... to anything with that! 

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...
Yes, but if I called you ProvocativePants that might make people picture you to be a crotchless set of low-riders, and nobody wants that. Would CreepyPants suffice?

Is this where I have to decide between having a nickname assigned to me by a Bioware developer and the integrity of my silly username?  

Where is my convenient third option?  Can I go to the Circle Tower and get out of this one?

[David Gaider]

leonia42 wrote...
Generalisations are fun and all for a time but at the end of the day we're not going to sit around the campfire and sing together, are we?

Probably not, but we might slowly come to the awkward realization that in our non-conformity we've all managed to listen to the same emo bands, wear the same dark eyeshadow and write the same overwrought anguished poetry. Which will make us bitter and resentful and we'll stalk away from the campfire and get ourselves eaten by a grue.

And whooo it's late. Time for bed, I think.

Modifié par David Gaider, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:46 .

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Where is my convenient third option?  Can I go to the Circle Tower and get out of this one?

Oh sure, run to the Chantry when you need help, but when they're knocking for donations where are you then, huh?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

David Gaider wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
Generalisations are fun and all for a time but at the end of the day we're not going to sit around the campfire and sing together, are we?

Probably not, but we might slowly come to the awkward realization that in our non-conformity we've all managed to listen to the same emo bands, wear the same dark eyeshadow and write the same overwrote anguished poetry. Which will make us bitter and resentful and we'll stalk away from the campfire and get ourselves eaten by a grue.

And whooo it's late. Time for bed, I think.

Tanya Donelly is so not emo! <_<

[mesmerizedish]

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
It not only oversimplifies the situation, it drawns unintended political context to the issue at hand, and it generalizes feelings into nice, neat little packages that I doubt many people would actually fit in.

You mean sort of like how everyone who is at all supportive of DA2's direction, or who objects to bashing, is a deliberately obtuse "fanboy" and how everyone who is at all critical of DA2's direction, or who objects to blank cheques being offered to developers, is an entitled "troll"?

Drives me absolutely crazy how people continue to treat this like an either / or situation (almost as much as the ones who state their opinions as if they are the defacto reality - "nobody likes silent protagonists, that's a thing of the past!" or "if you like faster paced action you must be a little kid playing on a console" or whatever)

Relax. Nobody's trying to suggest people need to be divvied up into their categories and forced to wear them like name badges. All AngryPants was offering was a way of identifying some of the different forces at work on the forums and why they tend to argue so much. It's like people speaking different languages and yet who all think they're speaking the same one.

Is it useful? Not really-- nobody's going to stop calling people fanboys or trolls or "telling it like it is"-- but it's also nothing to get up in arms about. Nobody was telling you to buy ranks in Militant Conservatism when you leveled up or anything. You're free to spec however you wish, I'm sure.

I like you

I'm really excited about DA2. The only thing that bothers me even a little is the voiced protagonist, and even then, I don't object to the idea in theory. I just want to be able to have several voice options. However, I totally understand how expensive VO is, both in terms of capital and of DVD real estate, and I realize that having three voices per race per gender is absolutely impracticable. I still don't know whether that leaves me preferring the set voice or the silent protagonist. I'll just have to play DA2 to decide, hmm?

Not sure if anyone is still criticizing the "set protagonist" thing, but from what information we have available, it seems like Hawke's story is no more set than the protagonist of Baldur's Gate. Spoiler alert: you're a Bhaalspawn!!!! Hawke's the Champion of Kirkwall! Everything between birth and that point depend on the players' actions throughout the games.

Lastly, the only inexcusable omission in DA2 that I take issue with is the removal of the dwarf and elf as playable races. Really, inexcusable. But by no means is that going to stop me from buying, playing, and enjoying the game. I'd just enjoy it MORE as an elf 

[Leonia]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Yes, but if I called you ProvocativePants that might make people picture you to be a crotchless set of low-riders, and nobody wants that. Would CreepyPants suffice?

Is this where I have to decide between having a nickname assigned to me by a Bioware developer and the integrity of my silly username?  

Where is my convenient third option?  Can I go to the Circle Tower and get out of this one?

Oh man, I teared up laughing. Maybe it's because I read Gaider's post in an Alistair-voice. Or maybe because I wasn't thinking of "crotchless low riders" when he said ProvocativePants (which would have been less disturbing than what I did think of)

Modifié par leonia42, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:47 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Yes, but if I called you ProvocativePants that might make people picture you to be a crotchless set of low-riders, and nobody wants that. Would CreepyPants suffice?

Is this where I have to decide between having a nickname assigned to me by a Bioware developer and the integrity of my silly username?  

Where is my convenient third option?  Can I go to the Circle Tower and get out of this one?

I dunno AngryPants has a nice ring to it actually.

[NoAngel89]

David Gaider wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
Generalisations are fun and all for a time but at the end of the day we're not going to sit around the campfire and sing together, are we?

Probably not, but we might slowly come to the awkward realization that in our non-conformity we've all managed to listen to the same emo bands, wear the same dark eyeshadow and write the same overwrought anguished poetry. Which will make us bitter and resentful and we'll stalk away from the campfire and get ourselves eaten by a grue.

And whooo it's late. Time for bed, I think.

emo.... hell dude nerd with glasses play your games. emo people are just...... yeah they don't play much games. and emo people aren't real, thats just a myth XD. a winekone reference...... but yeah I'm guessing nobody know that<_<.......

Modifié par NoAngel89, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...
The thing is that I'm (and others) not talking about the defining traits of RPGs here. I'm talking about what defined DA:O as DA:O. What was core to the mechanics and interaction in that specific game? That's what should not be changed.

Right, but what was the core mechanic? Was it the silent VO, and now with the VO this has changed? Presumably not in your opinion, because you granted that this is not a major departure for you. Is it the framed narrative? I would argue it isn't, because plausibly we could add only this feature to DA:O and not neccesarily change anything about the game or story beyond its presentation.

I think an issue that can't be glossed over is that we have this disagreement over whether the direction of DA2 is positive or not because we cannot agree what the core features of the game are.

In my case, for example, if we kept silent VO, addded more origins and less defined background and a create-your-own party (think IWD or NWN2: SoZ) the game would no longer interest me. If we replaced the gameplay with diablo hack & slash, I would be far less excited for the game.

A major issue of design is that, if you want to talk about improving the product versus cloning it, you have to identify what features of the game are core and what features are peripheral. And there is tremendous disagreement on that. To me, it was the pause & play gameplay and the 4-person tactical combat. The peripheral failures of DA:O included the lack of VO. So if I was designing the game, I would be taking it in the same direction Bioware is. If Sylvius was designing it, we'd be well on our way to correct the mistakes BG I made.

[RampantBeaver]

Criticising a game that hasn't been released yet, let alone finished, is soo pointless. Wait till you play it, then give all the feedback you like.



I remember back when ME was released; I couldn't give a ****ing hoo har about a FPS RPG and frankly had made up my mind that it wouldn't be any good. I ended up buying it about a year and a half later as something to fill my time while I waited for another game to come out. Ended up being one of the greatest games I'd ever played and vastly surpassed the actual game I had been waiting for in terms of how much enjoyment I got out of it.



Anyway to end on a serious note if Arvid the Tap-Dancing Squirrel is not a playable character i will not be buying this game, I'll hate the world and Bioware can go to hell for betraying me and every other fan who has ever bought a BW game in the past!

[FedericoV]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
A conservative!  All hail the status quo!  (See, I'm not crazy)

When something works you don't completely change the formula. I wonder if you were a fan of Starcraft and if so what you thought of Starcraft2. Other than a new campaign and some new units the sequal is almost identical to the first. And it sold like crazy and everyone is loving it.

Yes, but Starcraft I is one of the best games of all times in terms of gameplay (if not the best) while DA:O has many issues in terms of gamepaly, pointed out by critics, players and developers of the original game themselves. Yep, many players loves it and considered it the best game of history but there was never the same kind of consensus (not even slightly) that a franchise like Starcraft has gathered in time. So I don't see the similarity here. Btw, I think that I'm a radical . Cool.

Modifié par FedericoV, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:36 .