735 réponses à ce sujet

[Da_Lion_Man]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

100 % agree with OP. This game looks bad and probably will be bad. I already hate it quite a bit.

You're agreeing with a troll, just to be clear. This is what they DO. 

So someone you disagree with is a troll? What's up with these forums? I can understand where he's coming from, I don't see how he's trolling? Then again I only read the OP.

[upsettingshorts]

These opinions presented as absolute truth will never stop, will they?

[Da_Lion_Man]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

These opinions presented as absolute truth will never stop, will they?

They are not absolute truth, some people just get tired of always having to add "IMO" or something like that. 

[upsettingshorts]

It's a shame that people find respectful discussion tiresome, then.

[Dave of Canada]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

So someone you disagree with is a troll? What's up with these forums? I can understand where he's coming from, I don't see how he's trolling? Then again I only read the OP.

Actually, assuming it is the same guy (as the names are familiar), it IS a troll. He / She is on their 5-6th account.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

So someone you disagree with is a troll? What's up with these forums? I can understand where he's coming from, I don't see how he's trolling? Then again I only read the OP.

Actually, assuming it is the same guy (as the names are familiar), it IS a troll. He / She is on their 5-6th account.

Well I'm not familiar with these forums so I didn't know this.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's a shame that people find respectful discussion tiresome, then.

I don't see how it's not respectful?

[upsettingshorts]

Only by implication - I do tend to read into these things more overtly than most people I suppose.

Basically, if I like the dialogue wheel and say something like, "The dialogue wheel is undoubtedly the best CRPG innovation in years." Then I'm just inviting people to challenge my opinion because I've stated it so absolutely and withheld reference as to why I prefer it - thus leaving the impression I believe it to be a widely-accepted fact.

If I say "Well, I like what the dialogue wheel does to my experience of the game" then explain how - like I do on the previous page - I just think that approach is different and inherently more respectful because while I do believe the above sentence, the latter example takes the simple step of acknowledging that my opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's.

It's not a huge difference, but if you dislike the dialogue wheel, you're more likely to be annoyed with post after post of the former, and less likely to take post after post of the latter personally.

So when people say that they prefer DA:O's system and wish DA:2 was more like it, and aren't a fan of the dialogue wheel I don't really feel the need to respond. It's when people call the dialogue wheel or other such features dumbing down or hand holding - or even to say that change never works - I kind of feel obligated, for no good reason but there it is, to respond.

Therefore I think if more people took care to frame their opinions in the proper context there'd be a lot less angry division on these boards.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Merced256]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Only by implication - I do tend to read into these things more overtly than most people I suppose.

Basically, if I like the dialogue wheel and say something like, "The dialogue wheel is undoubtedly the best CRPG innovation in years." Then I'm just inviting people to challenge my opinion because I've stated it so absolutely and withheld reference as to why I prefer it - thus leaving the impression I believe it to be a widely-accepted fact.

If I say "Well, I like what the dialogue wheel does to my experience of the game" then explain how - like I do on the previous page - I just think that approach is different and inherently more respectful because while I do believe the above sentence, the latter example takes the simple step of acknowledging that my opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's.

It's not a huge difference, but if you dislike the dialogue wheel, you're more likely to be annoyed with post after post of the former, and less likely to take post after post of the latter personally.

So when people say that they prefer DA:O's system and wish DA:2 was more like it, and aren't a fan of the dialogue wheel I don't really feel the need to respond. It's when people call the dialogue wheel or other such features dumbing down or hand holding - or even to say that change never works - I kind of feel obligated, for no good reason but there it is, to respond.

Therefore I think if more people took care to frame their opinions in the proper context there'd be a lot less angry division on these boards.

I agree completely, its a circle or sorts and i admit i'm often caught in its cycle. I don't just read words but the context and intentions behind them (percieved or otherwise) and it often leads to angry rebukes and the like.

[upsettingshorts]

Basically. Rhetoric is a lost art, and emotionally-charged misunderstandings are a byproduct of poor communication.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Only by implication - I do tend to read into these things more overtly than most people I suppose.

Basically, if I like the dialogue wheel and say something like, "The dialogue wheel is undoubtedly the best CRPG innovation in years." Then I'm just inviting people to challenge my opinion because I've stated it so absolutely and withheld reference as to why I prefer it - thus leaving the impression I believe it to be a widely-accepted fact.

If I say "Well, I like what the dialogue wheel does to my experience of the game" then explain how - like I do on the previous page - I just think that approach is different and inherently more respectful because while I do believe the above sentence, the latter example takes the simple step of acknowledging that my opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's.

It's not a huge difference, but if you dislike the dialogue wheel, you're more likely to be annoyed with post after post of the former, and less likely to take post after post of the latter personally.

So when people say that they prefer DA:O's system and wish DA:2 was more like it, and aren't a fan of the dialogue wheel I don't really feel the need to respond. It's when people call the dialogue wheel or other such features dumbing down or hand holding - or even to say that change never works - I kind of feel obligated, for no good reason but there it is, to respond.

Therefore I think if more people took care to frame their opinions in the proper context there'd be a lot less angry division on these boards.

That's internet for you unfortunately. I understand where you're coming from... then again I too didn't really formulate my opinion very well. >_>

[Meltemph]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Only by implication - I do tend to read into these things more overtly than most people I suppose.

Basically, if I like the dialogue wheel and say something like, "The dialogue wheel is undoubtedly the best CRPG innovation in years." Then I'm just inviting people to challenge my opinion because I've stated it so absolutely and withheld reference as to why I prefer it - thus leaving the impression I believe it to be a widely-accepted fact.

If I say "Well, I like what the dialogue wheel does to my experience of the game" then explain how - like I do on the previous page - I just think that approach is different and inherently more respectful because while I do believe the above sentence, the latter example takes the simple step of acknowledging that my opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's.

It's not a huge difference, but if you dislike the dialogue wheel, you're more likely to be annoyed with post after post of the former, and less likely to take post after post of the latter personally.

So when people say that they prefer DA:O's system and wish DA:2 was more like it, and aren't a fan of the dialogue wheel I don't really feel the need to respond. It's when people call the dialogue wheel or other such features dumbing down or hand holding - or even to say that change never works - I kind of feel obligated, for no good reason but there it is, to respond.

Therefore I think if more people took care to frame their opinions in the proper context there'd be a lot less angry division on these boards.

That's internet for you unfortunately. I understand where you're coming from... then again I too didn't really formulate my opinion very well. >_>

It's actually why, at 1st, I thought you were a 2nd account from someone from this topic.    

[SirOccam]

This is why AngryPants' posts (sorry, but I just love that nickname) are fun to read. I like when people put thought and logic into their arguments. And try to impose some order instead of just running on emotion.

[Bryy_Miller]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

100 % agree with OP. This game looks bad and probably will be bad. I already hate it quite a bit.

You're agreeing with a troll, just to be clear. This is what they DO. 

So someone you disagree with is a troll? What's up with these forums? I can understand where he's coming from, I don't see how he's trolling? Then again I only read the OP.

No, you misunderstand. He's a dual account for Burritos, and this is what Burritos does.

He causes mischief.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Addai]

So what if the OP is a troll. Doesn't mean everyone participating is. I like hijacking trolls' threads and turning them into good discussion and/or a gush thread. There is natural justice to it.

[Addai]

@AngryPants, if it feels like a feature dumbs down the game, that's still a legitimate criticism. I mean, in the promotion of DA2 they talked about having to "read and analyze" as a negative feature of DAO. If you happen to like giving your character responses that way, being told it's nerdy and outdated naturally leads to some pushback.

[Clover Rider]

Addai67 wrote...

So what if the OP is a troll. Doesn't mean everyone participating is. I like hijacking trolls' threads and turning them into good discussion and/or a gush thread. There is natural justice to it.

This thread is now about Kamen Rider=].

[SafetyShattered]

I do agree that the huge changes are a little frightening but I believe (or hope) that Bioware is not abandoning their original fanbase but is trying to attract more fans.



OK I know this next part is a little off topic but it annoys the crap out of me when I see a topic that insults the direction of DA2 and Bioware locks it. I am glad at least this topic is still open. I am looking forward to DA2 a lot but I get really angry whem Bioware closes most of the topics that insult their changes. Bioware needs to realize that when you make so many radical changes some people (such as the OP) are going to be ticked. So yeah.... Bioware needs to be a little more open and stop closing topics just because people are worried about DA2.



Ok sorry about that rant...and I still love you Bioware.

[AlanC9]

Shadowfang12 wrote...
OK I know this next part is a little off topic but it annoys the crap out of me when I see a topic that insults the direction of DA2 and Bioware locks it.

I've never seen one of those locked threads yet that wasn't locked for a blatant TOS violation.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

@AngryPants, if it feels like a feature dumbs down the game, that's still a legitimate criticism. I mean, in the promotion of DA2 they talked about having to "read and analyze" as a negative feature of DAO. If you happen to like giving your character responses that way, being told it's nerdy and outdated naturally leads to some pushback.

I'm not going to comment on the criticism of DA:2's marketing because that's opening up a whole can of worms that doesn't interest me in the slightest.  However...

It's not that the criticism is illegitimate.  The problem is that it can and ought to be framed in a way which isn't dismissive or arrogant.  Why?  If common courtesy isn't a good enough reason, then because it undermines the argument by casual dismissal of the opposing viewpoint, either explicitly or implicitly.  It results in those who disagree attacking the person who made the argument and not the argument itself.

Basically, I get sick of seeing a lot of features I like - and can come up with damn good reasons why - being dismissed as dumber (from the dialogue wheel to ME2's weapons), when I've been playing CRPGs just as long as those critics with no difficulty with regards to intelligence.  It's insulting, and makes me approach these forums bitter and angry, and that is tragic and unnecessary. 

The point behind my silly labels earlier in this thread was to get across the idea that ultimately we're debating preferences that arise from our different approaches to the CRPG genre, and our tone ought to reflect that.

Shadowfang12 wrote...
Bioware needs to be a little more open and stop closing topics just because people are worried about DA2.

Ok sorry about that rant...and I still love you Bioware.

You mean like this one that's almost at 20 pages?  They moderate threads all the time for different reasons - their desire to keep negative DA:2 posts here and perhaps positive DA:2 posts in the "Love the direction this game is going" thread is their moderating perogative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:52 .

[Clover Rider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

@AngryPants, if it feels like a feature dumbs down the game, that's still a legitimate criticism. I mean, in the promotion of DA2 they talked about having to "read and analyze" as a negative feature of DAO. If you happen to like giving your character responses that way, being told it's nerdy and outdated naturally leads to some pushback.

I'm not going to comment on the criticism of DA:2's marketing because that's opening up a whole can of worms that doesn't interest me in the slightest.  However...

It's not that the criticism is illegitimate.  The problem is that it can and ought to be framed in a way which isn't dismissive or arrogant.  Why?  If common courtesy isn't a good enough reason, then because it undermines the argument by casual dismissal of the opposing viewpoint, either explicitly or implicitly.  It results in those who disagree attacking the person who made the argument and not the argument itself.

Basically, I get sick of seeing a lot of features I like - and can come up with damn good reasons why - being dismissed as dumber (from the dialogue wheel to ME2's weapons), when I've been playing CRPGs just as long as those critics with no difficulty with regards to intelligence.  It's insulting, and makes me approach these forums bitter and angry, and that is tragic and unnecessary. 

The point behind my silly labels earlier in this thread was to get across the idea that ultimately we're debating preferences that arise from our different approaches to the CRPG genre, and our tone ought to reflect that.

Shadowfang12 wrote...
Bioware needs to be a little more open and stop closing topics just because people are worried about DA2.

Ok sorry about that rant...and I still love you Bioware.

You mean like this one that's almost at 20 pages?  They moderate threads all the time for different reasons - their desire to keep negative DA:2 posts and perhaps positive DA:2 posts in the "Love the direction this game is going" thread is their moderating perogative.

IMO BioWare's fandom is just like any fandom full of crap:?.

[upsettingshorts]

Some Geth wrote...
IMO BioWare's fandom is just like any fandom full of crap:?.

Two of the three other boards I frequent:  Paradox Interactive (Victora 2, Europa Universalis III) and Sports Interactive (Football Manager) - are much more civil and even-keeled than Bioware's.

However the TW Center (for Creative Assembly's Total War series) is basically the same, although there I'm part of the bitter reactionary contingent, as are most people.  Yet we're all interested in Shogun 2: Total War.  Such is the way of things, it seems.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2010 - 09:01 .

[Bryy_Miller]

AlanC9 wrote...

Shadowfang12 wrote...
OK I know this next part is a little off topic but it annoys the crap out of me when I see a topic that insults the direction of DA2 and Bioware locks it.

I've never seen one of those locked threads yet that wasn't locked for a blatant TOS violation.

Seriously. Believe it or not, BioWare isn't that petty. This is not a fan forum.

[Clover Rider]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Shadowfang12 wrote...
OK I know this next part is a little off topic but it annoys the crap out of me when I see a topic that insults the direction of DA2 and Bioware locks it.

I've never seen one of those locked threads yet that wasn't locked for a blatant TOS violation.

Seriously. Believe it or not, BioWare isn't that petty. This is not a fan forum.

It needs to be like the fan forums I go to:devil:.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Shadowfang12 wrote...
OK I know this next part is a little off topic but it annoys the crap out of me when I see a topic that insults the direction of DA2 and Bioware locks it.

I've never seen one of those locked threads yet that wasn't locked for a blatant TOS violation.

You left out the part where its generally steered off topic by those who rather than debate changes, go into the "define an rpg" defense.