175 réponses à ce sujet

[Lyssistr]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

All due respect to the guy, but maybe this is for the best for everyone. From what I see of DA2 it is going to have the same relationship to DAO that ME2 did to ME1. That's a damn good thing. If the dude didn't like that, no harm no foul, I hope to hell he goes out and finds his dream job. But me, I got seventy bucks that is already waiting for DA2. So. Gimmie story.

So if they completely gut DA2 and turn it into an "RPG Lite" you'd consider that a good thing? I wouldn't. My whole take on it, is DA2 is not the direction Brent would have taken the series and among other personal factors involved that aren't DA2 related at all I'm sure, are reasons he left.

One thing's for certain, this isn't the same Bioware most of us have grown to love over the past decade, and I'm personally not sure I really like the direction things are going. Between the idea of turning every project into some cinematic experience, removal of RP elements due to voiced PC's, a focus on DLC content post release (wonder how much of DAO's and ME2's DLC was actually cut from the main game just to be sold for extra later on). The list goes on and on. To be honest, if EA didn't already have a studio named EA Canada, its prolly more realistic to just start calling Bioware  EA Edmonton at this point.

 Look, many people don't like DA2's direction. My personal dislike will also show up on sales.

 However, picking a statement from a guy who left Bioware is like asking Jennifer Aniston her Opinion on Brad Pitt, the day all newspapers had a pic of him kissing Jolie.

 People leave jobs mainly for other reasons, not for a simple distaste of the latest project they work on. 

[Lyssistr]

 I know one thing, if Tiax was St. Peter, we'd all burn in hell !

[Bryy_Miller]

She did say he probably left for other reasons.



... last post....

[Anarya]

I'm too distracted by soft fuzzy kitten belly to post seriously anymore.

[Lyssistr]

Anarya wrote...

I'm too distracted by soft fuzzy kitten belly to post seriously anymore.

kitty shall burn in hell as well 

[Tiax Rules All]

Lyssistr wrote...

 I know one thing, if Tiax was St. Peter, we'd all burn in hell !

I'm not really religious so I don't really get the reference but I'm not mad, tone really doesn't show through well on forums,  I just don't get it.  You guys want to believe what he wrote is just a cover for leaving becuase of the money, go for it.  I don't see why you would come to that conclusion other then you just simply cant believe it acually had SOMETHING to do with the art direction and decisions made by the company like he states in his blog.

Hey really you guys win.  He left for the money. I can't prove it, but he left for allllll that money he wasn't getting at Bioware.

[HTTP 404]

interesting blog despite biased OP.

[Lyssistr]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

 I know one thing, if Tiax was St. Peter, we'd all burn in hell !

I'm not really religious so I don't really get the reference but I'm not mad, tone really doesn't show through well on forums,  I just don't get it.  You guys want to believe what he wrote is just a cover for leaving becuase of the money, go for it.  I don't see why you would come to that conclusion other then you just simply cant believe it acually had SOMETHING to do with the art direction and decisions made by the company like he states in his blog.

Hey really you guys win.  He left for the money. I can't prove it, but he left for allllll that money he wasn't getting at Bioware.

Hell was more of a reference to Christian ethics, which has a major impact on western societies, where gathering money is traditionally seen as something unethical, not on your religion.

You can never prove that money talks & bull**** walks, it's either evident or it isn't.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:17 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Lyssistr wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

All due respect to the guy, but maybe this is for the best for everyone. From what I see of DA2 it is going to have the same relationship to DAO that ME2 did to ME1. That's a damn good thing. If the dude didn't like that, no harm no foul, I hope to hell he goes out and finds his dream job. But me, I got seventy bucks that is already waiting for DA2. So. Gimmie story.

So if they completely gut DA2 and turn it into an "RPG Lite" you'd consider that a good thing? I wouldn't. My whole take on it, is DA2 is not the direction Brent would have taken the series and among other personal factors involved that aren't DA2 related at all I'm sure, are reasons he left.

One thing's for certain, this isn't the same Bioware most of us have grown to love over the past decade, and I'm personally not sure I really like the direction things are going. Between the idea of turning every project into some cinematic experience, removal of RP elements due to voiced PC's, a focus on DLC content post release (wonder how much of DAO's and ME2's DLC was actually cut from the main game just to be sold for extra later on). The list goes on and on. To be honest, if EA didn't already have a studio named EA Canada, its prolly more realistic to just start calling Bioware  EA Edmonton at this point.

 Look, many people don't like DA2's direction. My personal dislike will also show up on sales.

 However, picking a statement from a guy who left Bioware is like asking Jennifer Aniston her Opinion on Brad Pitt, the day all newspapers had a pic of him kissing Jolie.

 People leave jobs mainly for other reasons, not for a simple distaste of the latest project they work on. 

And if you actually read my post, I mention that there are more than likely reasons not DA2 related at all to him leaving, but hey whatever, go on and trivialize a former lead designer's opinion some more.

[AlexXIV]

Well it is good to see though that there are still people out there who have ideals and even quit a good job if they feel that things are not the way they personally think they should be. Most people wouldn't have the balls. Though I don't really see where exactly Bioware changed much. DA:O is probably their best RPG so far (not counting Black Isle RPGs). There are people of the opinion that Bioware doesn't focus on RPG features in their games enough, but that's also always been so.

[_-Greywolf-_]

Lyssistr wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

All due respect to the guy, but maybe this is for the best for everyone. From what I see of DA2 it is going to have the same relationship to DAO that ME2 did to ME1. That's a damn good thing. If the dude didn't like that, no harm no foul, I hope to hell he goes out and finds his dream job. But me, I got seventy bucks that is already waiting for DA2. So. Gimmie story.

So if they completely gut DA2 and turn it into an "RPG Lite" you'd consider that a good thing? I wouldn't. My whole take on it, is DA2 is not the direction Brent would have taken the series and among other personal factors involved that aren't DA2 related at all I'm sure, are reasons he left.

One thing's for certain, this isn't the same Bioware most of us have grown to love over the past decade, and I'm personally not sure I really like the direction things are going. Between the idea of turning every project into some cinematic experience, removal of RP elements due to voiced PC's, a focus on DLC content post release (wonder how much of DAO's and ME2's DLC was actually cut from the main game just to be sold for extra later on). The list goes on and on. To be honest, if EA didn't already have a studio named EA Canada, its prolly more realistic to just start calling Bioware  EA Edmonton at this point.

 Look, many people don't like DA2's direction. My personal dislike will also show up on sales.

 However, picking a statement from a guy who left Bioware is like asking Jennifer Aniston her Opinion on Brad Pitt, the day all newspapers had a pic of him kissing Jolie.

 People leave jobs mainly for other reasons, not for a simple distaste of the latest project they work on. 

I would wager that most of the people who work at Bioware diddnt sign up for the job simply because they needed to pay the bills, I would like to think that they signed up because they had a vision and were passionate about making great games, however how can you be passionate about creating a great game if you dont like the direction it is heading? I can understand and respect Brent Knowles decision to leave as from what I have seen of DA2 it doesnt look like a game I would want to be a part of either.

I will probably stick around and give DA2 a chance but I think it is quite clear that Bioware is not the same company it was when it made BG2.

[stormhit]

I really don't understand how people arguing both sides of this are just totally ignoring two current employees who have said he wasn't even around for much planning.

[Lyssistr]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

All due respect to the guy, but maybe this is for the best for everyone. From what I see of DA2 it is going to have the same relationship to DAO that ME2 did to ME1. That's a damn good thing. If the dude didn't like that, no harm no foul, I hope to hell he goes out and finds his dream job. But me, I got seventy bucks that is already waiting for DA2. So. Gimmie story.

So if they completely gut DA2 and turn it into an "RPG Lite" you'd consider that a good thing? I wouldn't. My whole take on it, is DA2 is not the direction Brent would have taken the series and among other personal factors involved that aren't DA2 related at all I'm sure, are reasons he left.

One thing's for certain, this isn't the same Bioware most of us have grown to love over the past decade, and I'm personally not sure I really like the direction things are going. Between the idea of turning every project into some cinematic experience, removal of RP elements due to voiced PC's, a focus on DLC content post release (wonder how much of DAO's and ME2's DLC was actually cut from the main game just to be sold for extra later on). The list goes on and on. To be honest, if EA didn't already have a studio named EA Canada, its prolly more realistic to just start calling Bioware  EA Edmonton at this point.

 Look, many people don't like DA2's direction. My personal dislike will also show up on sales.

 However, picking a statement from a guy who left Bioware is like asking Jennifer Aniston her Opinion on Brad Pitt, the day all newspapers had a pic of him kissing Jolie.

 People leave jobs mainly for other reasons, not for a simple distaste of the latest project they work on. 

And if you actually read my post, I mention that there are more than likely reasons not DA2 related at all to him leaving, but hey whatever, go on and trivialize a former lead designer's opinion some more.

I don't trivialize, I'm saying his opinion is partial because he left Bioware, this is pretty evident.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:31 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

stormhit13 wrote...

I really don't understand how people arguing both sides of this are just totally ignoring two current employees who have said he wasn't even around for much planning.

It is obvious that he was around for enough to get a fair idea of where the game was heading though. 

[HTTP 404]

stormhit13 wrote...

I really don't understand how people arguing both sides of this are just totally ignoring two current employees who have said he wasn't even around for much planning.

it should be obvious since the blog was written a year and half ago.  My impression he started to dislike the direction before finishing DA:O

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
The concerns raised by Brent in his post are valid ones- he felt DA might end up going more the ME route. Well, DA2 is taking the dialogue wheel, voiced PC , "cinematic" style and "amping up" the action, all the while being reduced in length to a ME length game. It won't be a ME clone or anything, but its not a stretch to say that of what we've seen of DA2 thus far, its definitely taking a page (or 2) out of the ME style RPG playbook. And for people that enjoyed Origins and its more traditional RPG approach, if DA2 ends up more like ME2, thats a damn shame.

To be fair to Brent, what he said was stronger than that. Precisely, he said that DA is going to be more like ME, not that it may be. He also said that he did not think he could design an RPG like ME, and that he wanted to work on something lighter, which may well indicate that whatever hybrid of ME and the ''old school'' RPG Bioware is interested in producing with DA2 was just not something Brent would be pleased with.

For all we know, his dealbreaker was VO for the PC, which would address the fixed protagonist comment, the ME direction comment, the Bioware being a different company claim (because he may see, as others do, that a VO-driven game is antithetical to what an RPG is).

The bigger concern, IMO, is his comment regarding isometric tactical combat.

[packardbell]

Davasar wrote...

Transferred, and note this isnt a debate on what makes an RPG, but why the lead designed for Dragon Age decided not to work on Dragon Age 2.

Why Brent Knowles left in his own words:

http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

The bottom line is: to a greater or lesser extent, Brent Knowles left because the direction the game (DA2), and the company had changed to something he could not work for anymore because they were making the game into something he didnt envision as his type of game.

When your lead designer bails out, then something is truely wrong.  Or do some of you actually think that nothing was wrong and he left for the heck of it?  Read his own words.  He was being polite, but there are some things couched in there, to be sure.

Not seeing that is being rather obtuse.

Note this here, from the blog:

I did some high level design for a potential new project but a few months later I realized that, given cutbacks and other things that it really seemed unlikely that the project I had been ‘assigned’ to was ever going to materialize. I can’t/won’t go into any other details other than to point to an old entry I made about this and reiterate: “I’m not the same person I was when I started, and BioWare isn’t the same company. ”

This man worked for 10 years for Bioware. He was there.

Any apologists still up for the notion that Bioware "is still the same as they ever were" argument?

Got over it.  EA has them now, and will do what they want with them.  If that means make lesser games in order to shuck out more product to be bought up by unexamining hordes, then thats what will happen.

The man who worked there 10 years has just shot your argument down. Completely.

Bioware has changed folks, and not for the better when a great designer like Brent Knowles feels he has to quit because of those changes.

Sorry but the EA hate bandwagon is so early 2000, you get over it.

[HTTP 404]

all you have to do is wear a tin foil hat and EA will not be able to control you, maaan.

[casedawgz]

packardbell wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Transferred, and note this isnt a debate on what makes an RPG, but why the lead designed for Dragon Age decided not to work on Dragon Age 2.

Why Brent Knowles left in his own words:

http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

The bottom line is: to a greater or lesser extent, Brent Knowles left because the direction the game (DA2), and the company had changed to something he could not work for anymore because they were making the game into something he didnt envision as his type of game.

When your lead designer bails out, then something is truely wrong.  Or do some of you actually think that nothing was wrong and he left for the heck of it?  Read his own words.  He was being polite, but there are some things couched in there, to be sure.

Not seeing that is being rather obtuse.

Note this here, from the blog:

I did some high level design for a potential new project but a few months later I realized that, given cutbacks and other things that it really seemed unlikely that the project I had been ‘assigned’ to was ever going to materialize. I can’t/won’t go into any other details other than to point to an old entry I made about this and reiterate: “I’m not the same person I was when I started, and BioWare isn’t the same company. ”

This man worked for 10 years for Bioware. He was there.

Any apologists still up for the notion that Bioware "is still the same as they ever were" argument?

Got over it.  EA has them now, and will do what they want with them.  If that means make lesser games in order to shuck out more product to be bought up by unexamining hordes, then thats what will happen.

The man who worked there 10 years has just shot your argument down. Completely.

Bioware has changed folks, and not for the better when a great designer like Brent Knowles feels he has to quit because of those changes.

Sorry but the EA hate bandwagon is so early 2000, you get over it.

Seriously. We must all put aside our petty greivances with EA and unite our powers against the mighty Darth Kotick.

[TheMadCat]

casedawgz wrote...


Seriously. We must all put aside our petty greivances with EA and unite our powers against the mighty Darth Kotick.

Why? Kotick is a dick but at least his company can turn a profit. EA hasn't been able to post in the green in back to back quarters in God knows how long now, several years.

[ViSeiRa]

Well, you could partially blame Brent on the direction DA2 is heading, I for one don't hate of like that direction, I'm Switzerland till I get my hands on the game and finish it at least once, if Brent had stayed he could have influenced the direction the sequel was headed even a little bit, I'd be sure to say that not all of the DA:O team were on board with the new direction immediately but they came around eventually, the same happens with all new sequels and games that decide to take new directions, take Deus Ex Human Revolution for example...... it's all subjective but if Brent in fact stayed he'd have influenced that direction much, not the opposite BG style, but to further refine it to reflect the true RPG nature of Bioware games.

[Faz432]

I think some in this thread are being quite naive.

You don't just quit a job you've been in for 10 years and quite clearly love, during a global recession and a uncertain job market for no small reason.

We have no idea how many pre-production meetings he attended in which he argued against the direction, how many times he was shot down before the only option left to him was to quit in protest.

If that's the case then I admire his integrity and not wanting to put his name to something he didn't believe in. That's not to say that the people who have remained don't have moral integrity but just are probably more concerned about the global financial situation and their position in it, which is completely understandable.

Either way I for one find it concerning that 2 senior memebers of the team have left and we have seen stark direction changes, such as the initial 2-3 years of expansions and DLC that was set for DA:O barely making it to 1 year, for the obvious reason of bringing DA2 forward.

Only time will tell.

Modifié par Faz432, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:50 .

[Maconbar]

Faz432 wrote...

I think some in this thread are being quite naive.

You don't just quit a job you've been in for 10 years and quite clearly love, during a global recession and a uncertain job market for no small reason.

We have no idea how many pre-production meetings he attended in which he argued against the direction, how many times he was shot down before the only option left to him was to quit in protest.

If that's the case then I admire his integrity and not wanting to put his name to something he didn't believe in. That's not to say that the people who have remained don't have moral integrity but just are probably more concerned about the global financial situation and their position in it, which is completely understandable.

Either way I for one find it concerning that 2 senior memebers of the team have left and we have seen stark direction changes, such as the initial 2-3 years of expansions and DLC that was set for DA:O barely making it to 1 year, for the obvious reason of bringing DA2 forward.

Only time will tell.

Didn't he leave and take a job at Disney? I am not certain how the uncertain job market would be terribly relevant in his case.

[FieryDove]

Maconbar wrote...


Didn't he leave and take a job at Disney? I am not certain how the uncertain job market would be terribly relevant in his case.

Dan can be found at the link below...he's listed in the studio bios

http://propagandagames.go.com/

To the OP, good read thanks for the link.

This caught my eye:

"Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character). I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play."

So all the Dragon-effect comments were not totally off it seems.

It sounds like the initial planning stage had no tactical camera (which I believe because early on there were reports of no tac cam, then later still being decided on then reassurances of it still be in just at tweaking stage).

It also sounds like no party control was planned. That is odd, I thought the Devs loved the tactics and party based-combat, I know I do. Not being able to switch to a companion would have been...meh, more than meh. ugh

Modifié par FieryDove, 08 octobre 2010 - 12:45 .